Full Series Darth Maul in Star Wars Rebels

Disney doesn't control who Lucasfilm hires at any position except maybe president/CEO, but that's it. Keeping Filoni would have been up to KK not Disney.

 

The way I see it, Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to kill Vader, and he probably regrets that. He could have stopped Vader, but didn't. And the Galaxy paid for it. He even told Yoda he couldn't, instead asking to take on the Emperor. Yoda responds by telling him Anakin is gone. "Destroy the Sith, we must."

Fast forward to ROTJ.

"There is still good in him."
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."

"I can't kill my own father."
"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

Obi-Wan failed due to emotion and so is stressing to Luke that it's futile and dangerous to try and feel anything for Vader. That Vader needs to die.

In AOTC, Yoda chose to save Anakin and Obi-Wan at the expense of letting Dooku go. He was too busy showing off that Dooku was able to put those two in danger, and Yoda chose to save them, dooming the Galaxy to three years of war when he could have ended it right there on Geonosis.

Fast forward to ESB

"And sacrifice Han and Leia?"
"If you honor what they fight for, yes."

It seems to me like these characters have had years of reflection upon regrets. And were trying to shape Luke to do what they couldn't. Obi-Wan is singing a different tune about Vader than in ROTS, and Yoda wants Luke to make a sacrifice that in AOTC he couldn't make himself.

Really on the surface, I see no real compassion or even sympathy for what they're asking Luke to do. The Sith must be destroyed and attachment/fear of loss cannot be allowed to get in the way. Obi-Wan even tells Luke to "bury your feelings, or they could be made to serve the Emperor."

Indeed, Palpatine states "his compassion for you will be his undoing."

They never train him to be compassionate nor encourage it. They tell him to keep his mind calm, and to use the Force for defense, that's about it.

It didn't strike me that these guys really cared about unconditional love of the kind Luke showed. Rather they didn't want emotion really getting in the way at all of duty.

They were even playing with fire by telling Luke his father was murdered, since rather than compassion towards Vader, they fostered anger.

We are closer in the timeline to this than to TCW, so it's odd to me to hear Obi-Wan say he had no intention of fighting him. Or to cradle the head of the man that killed his master, killed a woman he cared about, and tried to kill him.

Meanwhile he's adamant that the apprentice he loved like a brother needs to die.

It doesn't fit IMO. Despite all the comments that say it's beautiful or fitting, it feels completely wrong to me.

The only way I can rationalize it is that Obi-Wan pities Maul. We saw this a bit in TCW. He knows that Palpatine took him when he was very young against his will. He probably doesn't really know right from wrong or how not to hate.

With Vader, it was a conscious decision to reject the light side. Obi-Wan had trained him as best as he could to be a good Jedi and instead Anakin rejected it for power and to spread tyranny, completely skewing any sense of right or wrong.

It always kind of bothered me that Yoda didn't have time with Dooku in TCW and that no effort was really made to understand him, whereas Obi-Wan could show Maul sympathy, even in TCW.

Something tells me not that much thought went into Maul's arc. They probably just thought it was a cool idea and that if it didn't make sense, they could explain it with whatever justification they wanted to retroactively, like I just did. Lucas would do that kind of stuff too.

But that also just means that if the story begs to go in one direction (e.g. Palpatine smacking Maul down three times), it can be ditched in favor of some other idea, like Maul and Kenobi for the umpteenth time, with Kenobi being uncharacteristically nice, (if not contradicting his OT behavior) if they think it's cool enough and then they'll explain it away in an interview.


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OT Kenobi and Yoda clearly lied and manipulated Luke into avenging the Jedi, even the original title of ROTJ was "Revenge of the Jedi", that was changed cause of the negative aspect , but the result is the same. Kenobi and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader and his master and all of that kinda thing to avenge themselves and their order.

As for Rebels. Maul did not seem to care whether he lived or died, even when he went to Attalon or how he fought earlier on Malachor. He was seeking that "end game" and for some way out apparently. There was no duel, because Maul allowed himself to be struck down, the fight was not there in him anymore, he seemed tired of living, maybe the growing old living with no purpose, he seemed to have missed his family, the Dark Side probably eating away at what was left of his sanity. Maul letting himself be struck down by Kenobi, tells Kenobi basically he was wrong about this man, there was something to pity and mourn in the end. Despite the surface, Maul was not inherently entirely evil as he let on. In his own way, maybe Maul found redemption , not in life, but in death. That elusive death he was seeking, a hope to die, or maybe Maul sacrificed himself for a higher purpose he found a selfless death - his revenge was vetted finally. The hope, also could've been Luke. Maul has knowledge about the chosen one prophecy which is very interesting insight , whether all Sith did, or just Maul . And Maul finding out about Luke before the true Sith is interesting, he's attached to the OT events in spirit.


I think Maul reaching out to Kenobi on Rebels, was in part due to Kenobi's reaching out to him back during TCW. These two warriors went through a lot, and despite all he put Kenobi through, and what Kenobi him, there was certain mutual respect, rival and equal warriors that had their fates intertwined. Maul never intended on killing Kenobi that was true for TCW. I think the aging and wising Maul was seeking something in death. I don't think he wanted to go into oblivion where all Dark Siders go. I think he needed a priest , and he knew one in Kenobi. TCW Maul was not the same was TPM Maul, I think they made it that way on purpose sadly, they made him overly psychotic. While he was not handled well TCW or especially Rebels, they did give him some mileage in the confines of ROTS and the OT. Ultimately it was about forgiveness, passing into the force a peacefully and near someone that would take care of the remains of the body properly in their code and rites ect.




Instead of rebuilding his former glory, the writers just placed him on a suicide run with his hope stuff. Ezra did not seem willingly to learn, but Maul took a strange and not clear manner of training him. Right into the end he still saves Ezra and refers to him as his apprentice, twisted humor is a part of this version of Maul on Rebels, but maybe something more to it I think. Maul apparently has learned to let go of his attachments, but he does gather artifacts of his former power , he communed and conducted Nightsister magick to bring back the dead, merging holocrons to gain powers and clarity of vision that can alter events - I don't think Maul will remain gone for long. Maybe the TCW version of Maul died, but the kinda middle ground between Light and Dark, the not so Sith version of Maul may return.




The pre fight and fight scene itself, Kenobi played it like had a morally higher ground, but he always did such things even in the PT/TCW. You read the Marvel comic, Kenobi certainly was struggling like Maul was, with posterity, with his past warrior and general life and life on Tatooine. Once Maul called him on it and tapped into what did make Kenobi visibly angry(certainly not Jedi or enlightened there) by bringing up the "someone". He finally got Kenobi to drop all pretense and got back the Kenobi he remembered. Maul wanted to go out like a warrior by the only other warrior to whom he respected , in his way. What Maul did, or what Kenobi did, is typical of challenge stuff. Maul seeking and calling Kenobi's name the back and fourth ridiculing opponents to boost morale of eachother's side as well as enrage the opponent to force the combat, all of that is standard even for Samurai during single combat duels.


But Kenobi himself still has to atone for his own sins and actions, he was a general in a war, and despite being a Jedi Master he still served the Dark Lord of the Sith, he still is partly responsible for the failure and loss of life that transpired and for the lack of stopping it or foreseeing it sooner. So Luke for both Maul and Kenobi, would indeed avenge them, just what order Maul belonged to his unclear, since he was no longer a Sith and no Jedi, but practiced the beliefs of the Sith and possibly Nightsisters/Nightbrothers, but the Sith destroyed both their lives and the lives of peoples they loved and cared about.

 

Obi Wan left Vader to die in ROTS, Vader was literaly minutes from dying. It was not that he could not bring him to die. He did no hesitate to cut all his limbs, left Vader helpless next to a river a lava, to die, with NOBODY around. Who would imagine that he was going to be rescued? There is actually a novel where Obi Wan is shocked after seeing Vader on a broadcast many months into his exiled. He could not believe it.

And to your point on having pity for Maul, that was clearly there. He pity him.

To your point about telling Luke to kill the sith lords, what is wrong with that? There was no other way. Actually, the Emperor had to die, he could not be redeemed. Of course Luke moved to a new level by redeeming Vader, and that is what made him a new Jedi breed, but that does not mean that Obi Wan was stuck in his old ways. As a matter of fact he achieved a Jedi level no other Jedi has reached before. He gave his life to save Luke and became part of the force by free will. Ultimate sacrifice. Selfless. Undefeated. Truly the most accomplished Jedi of his era.


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Leaving someone to die and killing them are too different things. He chopped off Anakin's limbs in self defense, then Anakin was there helpless, and instead of killing him, he walked away.

This is even touched upon in the Vader comic, the struggle plays out in Vader's head between the light and Dark Side and he recollects Obi-Wan telling him he loved Anakin, and Anakin responds that Obi-Wan is a liar and a coward, because he would have killed him if he loved him.

Vader clearly sees it as cowardice that Obi-Wan did not finish him off.

Plus there's no way to know he was minutes away from dying. Maul survived 10+ years.

I know he has pity for Maul. I'm not saying that's right though. These aren't real people. They do whatever the writers say they did. If they were so inclined they could have said that the fight was short because Maul had just eaten food from a street vendor in Mos Espa and had diarrhea and so wanted to finish it quickly.

It's whatever they dictate the story to be, and so oversights can be made or decisions I strongly disagree with. I feel like how Maul and Obi-Wan's arcs played out don't really make sense.

Who would pity a psychopath more than someone you knew to be a good person who then later in life became cruel?

Way back in ESB and ROTJ, it was established that the Jedi didn't see any way back from the dark side. That forever would it dominate one's destiny.

The prequels did not contradict this.

Then came TCW and Obi-Wan is shown to pity Maul, Savage as he dies, renounces that he was ever like Maul, Asajj manages to reject the Dark Side, so does Quinlan?

So the problem started there. And when Maul resurfaces, naturally he wants revenge on Obi-Wan for cutting him in half. I'm on board with that.

Then he starts getting ambitious and uniting criminal elements to build up a power base and usurps control of Mandalore, restoring himself to power.

Then Palpatine takes it all away. Kills his brother, reminds him he's been replaced, and tortures him.

Then Maul escapes, rallies his forces and returns to Talzin in an effort to destroy the Sith. Sidious' forces kill Maul's mother, destroy Maul's power base, and leave him on the run.

Maul turns up on Malachor, he uses Ezra by convincing him that he too is an enemy of the Sith for all the aforementioned reasons. He manipulates Ezra into activating a weapon to exact his revenge, but then Ahsoka, Kanan and Vader foil it.

He keeps trying to return to power and he keeps getting smacked down by the Sith?

So what's he do when he has access to two holocrons that can bestow knowledge? He asks if Obi-Wan is alive...

Why? Again, that's subject to the whims of creators and Filoni's reasoning was there was no emotion between Vader and Maul. So randomly the story goes from Maul repeatedly challenging the Sith to seeking out Obi-Wan...

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Then you have Obi-Wan and Yoda telling Luke there is no coming back from the Dark Side and Vader must die in the OT.

What's wrong with that is that it goes against the message of the saga.

The whole point is that Luke SHOULDN'T have killed Vader. Luke was human he has emotions. Obi-Wan wants Luke to bury them. Palpatine wants him to give into anger. But Luke instead refuses to kill his father because he feels compassion for Vader.

"Compassion, what I would call UNCONDITIONAL love, is essential to a Jedi." - Anakin.

Obi-Wan didn't have it. Yoda didn't have it. Luke had it, it redeemed his father and destroyed the Sith. Obi-Wan and Yoda did have compassion of sorts, but it didn't seem to extend to their enemies.

Yet here we have Obi-Wan showing Maul compassion. Not pity. An actual care for Maul that he would cradle him and offer him comfort as he lay dying. To me that seems completely against how Lucas established the character in the OT. He even asserted to Ezra that he had no intention of fighting Maul.

Obi-Wan tries rationalizing with Maul and challenges Maul's philosophy and Maul gets angry. Then Maul realizes that Obi-Wan is protecting someone and Obi-Wan is forced to fight. But once the fight is over he comforts Maul.

This is a pale comparison to Obi-Wan calling Vader a master of evil and taking the first swing. Making no attempt to show him any kind of compassion.

The answer I keep getting is "because he doesn't feel he can be saved."

But neither could Maul. Obi-Wan killed him, but was compassionate to him. He didn't want to kill him and had no intention of fighting him.

With Vader he has every intention of having Luke kill him. Tells Luke to bury his feelings. Extends no compassion to his old apprentice on the Death Star, etc.

There is a big disconnect IMO.

In two cases I pointed out where love and caring ended up being a setback for Yoda and Obi-Wan, so with Luke they actively discouraged compassion. He was to have zero love for Vader. In fact they lied and said Vader murdered his father. That's going to breed anger, not understanding.

The prequel Jedi were flawed and the OT Jedi seemed even more flawed. They lied, they wanted a son to kill his own father, they wrote off Anakin as unreachable.

Luke proves their way wrong. No matter how lost Vader was. No matter how robotic or cold he was, there was good in him. And while Luke would fight to defend himself, he wasn't going to kill his father, whom he loved despite all the evil he'd done.

So you have dogmatic, yet compassionate Jedi in the prequels. Perhaps flawed in their strictness and in their being governed by politicians. Then you have Jedi in the OT that are wiser as they've learned from their mistakes, but the only realization they've had is that the Sith must die and that a Jedi must keep his mind at peace.

Luke proved them wrong. That was Luke's achievement. Lucas had even said at one point that a Jedi is supposed to love everyone, including the Sith. It doesn't matter if they can't be redeemed. That may make it necessary for them to die, but they should still be treated compassionately as Maul was.

My issue was that I don't feel like it makes sense for Obi-Wan to have this realization. The Obi-Wan & Anakin comic also shows Obi-Wan as being uncharacteristically reluctant to kill after TPM.

He refuses to kill those actively trying to kill him.

That jumbles the narrative. So while training Anakin he shows respect for life, including those trying to kill him. Then the war happens and Dave Filoni says that the Jedi give into fear and the Dark Side spread. Then in Rebels Yoda seems to be realizing that their conduct in the war was wrong and that fighting may not be the key to winning. Obi-Wan meanwhile says he has no intention of fighting Maul, but does when pressed, killing him but showing him compassion. Then comes the OT from Lucas which does not depict these characters as having any qualms about fighting and wanting Vader dead.

It's a jumbled progression of character development.







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It's like Saw's hair it makes zero sense!

 

One thing about Obi-Wan and Mauls' last fight ..... it was quick, showing how powerful Obi-Wan had become, but it also implies that Obi-Wan was not 'weak' as Darth Vader said on the Death Star; he was just deliberately prolonging the fight to keep Vader busy. Vader did not see Obi-Wan's strength and Maul did not either. Following that, it seems that there are some parts of the light side that Sith just cannot see. Just as the Jedi could not see through the dark side during the Clone War.

 

But Obi Wan was weak relatively speaking by the time of ANH at deuling at least; just because he easily struck down a weak and predictable Maul who was at the end of his time does not mean he was holding back against Vader. If Obi had the skill to kill Vader and finally end him there surelly he would have done it but Anakin was at his prime as Vader then and no matter what he would
have eventually killed Obi had he not sacrificed himself.

 

Yeah, Vader probably could have defeated Obi-Wan in the end ....... if it was just a matter of who could push harder with the Force.

Vader should have beaten Obi-Wan on Mustafar; he was clearly stronger and Obi-Wan who was running out of steam at the end of that fight. But Vader was overconfident and Obi-Wan was more aware of their surroundings and he used it. Which is also how he defeated Maul, who completely forgot about the other lightsaber in the room, on Naboo. Strength isn't the only factor in winning.

Maul was stuck in the past -- coming at Obi-Wan with a move that he used on Qui-Gon -- but Obi-Wan had moved beyond that years ago and easily saw it coming. So, it is possible that Maul was more 'powerful' on Tatooine, but that's not what wins the fight.

 

I am so glad that Maul has been removed from Rebels. He was such a distraction - Will Ezra turn to the Dark Side, Is Ezra Snoke, and the like. Maul's demise wipes those ideas off from the playing field. Now we can focus on the story of Rebels v. Empire.

 

Nope, he asked for "hope", and as Twin Suns revealed, that meant dying in Obi-Wan's arm and receiving the confirmation that he was protecting the Chosen One, which gave Maul some hope that his revenge against Sidious will be fulfilled by someone else.

You think Maul's presence was the impetus for those ideas?



If anything, Maul in season 3 did more to stray Ezra from the Dark Side by accidentaly destroying the Sith Holocron.

You know, after rewatching the fight in TPM, I don't think this is as great as it sounds... Maul in TPM struck Gui Gon in the face with his lightsaber only because the hilt had already been very close to the Jedi's face, and that happened because Maul had spent the last few strikes getting really, really close to the Jedi, always keeping his weapon high. In Rebels, he tries it from a near-crouch, leaving plenty of space for Obi-Wan to strike him down. It's really not the same move.

 

Obi-Wan says that Maul manipulated Ezra to find Obi-Wan. That was his goal.

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Yeah, that became his goal after he learned that Obi-Wan was still alive thanks to the merging of the Holocrons, and that piece of knowledge came as a surprise to him. And in Twin Suns, he directly manipulated Ezra into venturing into the desert so that Obi-Wan would come to his rescue. Oh and by the way...

How is it odd? He adds "Although it seems inevitable now", meaning that what Obi-Wan really didn't want was for Maul to find him but was now resigned to it because he had no illusions about Ezra's presence on Tatooine : Maul had put him in mortal danger just to draw him out, knowing that Obi-Wan wouldn't just let the young man die to protect himself.

 

I'll have to rewatch it. You're​ right, I think, now that I think about it.

It's odd because he's content to let Maul run around. A former Sith trying to reclaim his position, but is adamant that Vader has to die and cannot be redeemed and is unworthy of compassion.

Yet, he's compassionate to a guy that caused him so much harm, and was recently a direct threat to the Galaxy had his plans on Malachor played out.

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He's also content to let Vader and Sidious run around, and they're not trying to reclaim anything, they're already at the top. Obi-Wan protects Luke and needs to keep a low profile, he can't go on a wild goose chase to end the life of one wreck of a Zabrak, who is, at this point, alone and nearly powerless. Maul's limited ability to do harm doesn't justify him revealing himself and possibly endangering Luke.

It's as Obi-Wan said on Mandalore, he knows that joining the Dark Side was never Maul's choice, that it was forced on him by the Nightsisters and Sidious, unlike Vader, who made a conscious choice, and then murdered children and his own wife.

 

Because Obi-Wan knew that the Jedi Order has failed and he can't involve in galactic affairs and his job isn't involved in old Jedi business, the new order is the Empire, he knows that he can't defeat the Empire by joining to rebellion, it's the same thing with stopping a former Sith Lord. His only job is protecting the chosen one, because he knows that Luke can change things unlike he can, so he only fought Maul because Maul was being suspected about Obi-Wan's intentions in Tatooine, and then Maul underestimated Kenobi thought that he's past his prime but turns out that he was wrong, it must be the chosen one, because only chosen one to make him stay in the desert, and still being sharp, and still not involving in the rebellion.

 

Obi-Wan didn't know anything. It was faith. And he went all in on the belief that Luke was the Chosen One, when they previously had done that with Anakin and it ended terribly.

Yoda even seemed more apprehensive, hesitating to train Luke. Seemingly like he was worried of the risk of trading Vader for an even greater evil, if Luke fell.

Contrast Yoda with Luke vs his demeanor with Ezra. He's much friendlier and straight forward with Ezra.

Even in ANH, Obi-Wan uses his age as a detriment. Saying his too old to be the hero and asks Luke to come along. Later Vader confirms that the old man's power is weak. Considering that the last time they met was on Mustafar, the implication set by the OT is that Obi-Wan's powers have indeed weakened since the fall of the Republic while in seclusion.

Meanwhile, Rebels has him on his A game, having transcended his abilities. Doesn't really mesh, imo.

They trusted Leia enough with Bail, allowed her to get swept up in the Rebellion. Though themselves stayed out of it (until Bail asked for help through Leia).

So it's odd to me to have this scene where Ezra is pleading Obi-Wan to join the Rebellion and Obi-Wan just gives him some vague non-answer about being where he needs to be and sends Ezra away. While in Rogue One, Bail feels it's time to ask Obi-Wan for help, a plea that we know Obi-Wan answers with Luke's help.

Luke is the same age as Ezra. Ezra has already begun Jedi training. So Luke's age shouldn't be a factor. If anything, Yoda seems to think they may have waited too long with Luke.

IMO they could have fixed this by never having Ezra cross paths with Obi-Wan.

Before this, it would show that Obi-Wan would answer the summons from the Rebellion when they reached out to him. Now they made a precedent where the Rebellion does reach out to him and he rejects it.

The OT painted him as someone who had declined from his Golden Age and took Luke as his apprentice and answered the call for help, because he's a Jedi and that's what a Jedi should do.

Rebels shows him in a completely different light. Someone who has advanced, and rejects a call for assistance.



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He rejected assistance when Luke wanted to come with him in the Death Star, and he said ;
''Your destiny lies along a different path from mine.''

He knows his mistakes this time, he trained Anakin at the end of Episode I, he is much more experienced in Episode IV, which is why he could think that he is a much better teacher and he was.

Vader is always like that, he says Anakin is weak in the Rebels, and he said the same thing in Episode III, ''you underestimate my power'' , ''don't make me kill you'' and we know what happened to him.

Obi-Wan in Episode IV also says ''you can't win Darth'' , so he is pretty much confident, he said that to Luke because he wanted him as a Jedi.

 

According the canon novelization of ANH, Kenobi and Vader "danced around eachother like seasoned fighters, lost in their own world", this is not the same Kenobi wanting to spend as little energy as possible and someone that has reached a different level of per the BS explanations of Recon and other places. Kenobi saw that troopers turned to watch their fight and at that moment he allowed himself to be destroyed, and Han felt Ben gave him a nod just prior as to get ready to flee while he does his thing. Also Kenobi's death made Luke angry at Vader for taking two people from him, his father and now Ben. He was also upset and angry that Ben just deactivated his lightsaber and did not try and stop Vader's blow. Certainly not the characteristics or end result Kenobi would've wanted for Luke. In the novel, Ben does teach Luke(Han also heard) a little about the Sith. Kenobi tells Luke, "The dark side, the way of the Sith, deals in hatred, fear, anger, jealousy. You must learn to control your emotions, otherwise they will control you." In Twin Suns, Kenobi getting visibly angry and ready for a match to kill, Maul certainly emitted an emotion and a lack of control afterall - hate, anger, fear - the Dark Side/ Sith tendency in Old Ben and ones that Maul exploited in TCW, "Your master, Qui-Gon Jinn. I gutted him while you stood helpless and watched. How did that make you feel, Obi-Wan? Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it? ".

What annoyed Maul most, even in his new comic, and on TCW, was the hypocritical nature and mindset of the Jedi. In some ways, Maul was more human, his emotions and passions that mix of hate, anger, fear are what make someone human naturally - and it gave him a wellspring of power. But the homicidal manner in which the Sith go about obtaining or gaining power, often what does them in via karma. Although some Sith Lords(Gairm) of been benign, at least in their way. Maul seemed to embrace Sith beliefs, Nightsister ways and even some Jedi ways on Rebels.

 

Ya, but the sith take them to extremes.

 

I don't think Obi-Wan is actually showing double standards re: Vader and Maul. The implication I got was that he would have been quite happy to leave Maul wandering about in the scorching/freezing desert until time and inclement conditions did him in for good; Ezra's appearance changed that. Perhaps when he saw just what Maul had been reduced to he felt compassion, possibly even before then he bore Maul no malice any more. He's simply (in his own words) ''risen above'' such things. His sole purpose is protecting/training Luke to do what (Kenobi thinks) needs to be done. His time as an active participant is done.

Maul is the same, he also has no meaning any more - but the difference is that he has not/cannot accept this. He went after Sidious and got slapped down like a child. He was defeated on Mandalore. He tried to turn Ezra and gain an apprentice - this failed too. He's got nothing left but his whole Sith upbringing and mindset makes this absolutely inconceivable and intolerable to him. Hence his fixation on finally killing Kenobi, it would be something he actively took control to do.

 

I'll be totally honest here. I think rebels is complete trash. Star wars television died with the clone wars. With that said I did follow what the show was doing with Vader and Maul. I was looking forward to a fitting ending at the hands of Vader or I suppose Obi wan again. Watched the last episode and yeah... lol.. I mean. Just confirmed my dislike of this show.

 

Have you watched the rebels recon? They explain why the duel was so short.

 

They can explain it all day, that doesn't mean people are going to like it and consider it a fitting end for a major villain...

 

Oh I know. I was just wondering if they had seen it.