Darth Maul VS Darth Vader. The FINAL Argument.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AlienBoy, Aug 12, 2001.

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  1. AlienBoy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2001
    Man I feel really embarrassed now- everyone has completely torn my argument to shreds. I guess the most important thing is that I didn't write this thing up last week- I did it a few months after Episode 1 was released (late-99) and when we knew pratically nothing about the new movie. I KNOW that Ray Park isn't coming back and I KNOW the name of Episode II.

    I consider this argument to be kinda retro in its time frame. Now that I think about it most of what is said can be thrown out the window because it has been blatantly contradicted by what has been said from Lucasfilm & the like
  2. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    When it (TPM) first came out, your arguement would have been a bit more powerful. But even then, there was so much stuff on just what Vader could do, and had done when hunting the Jedi, that would have had a lot of folks in Vader's camp. When I saw Maul on the bigscreen, I thought he was a really cool villian. But I still prefered Vader. However, as I said in my first response, I was one of the many who fell for the hype around Maul. So I would have seen a fight between the too as being terribly close, with Vader just barely winning. Now, after so much has been put out surrounding Maul, I no longer believe all the hype around him. Especially since so much shows just how focused he was in defeating the Jedi and how he saw himself as being so superior.
  3. DemolitionBoy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2001
    star 2
    When you actually look at it, Vader can't move as well in his body suit. So Maul might have a chance. On the other hand Vader IS the Chosen One. That's gotta count for something.

    Now if it was Dark Side Anakin Skywalker before he had the body suit then it would be no contest. Anakin would wipe out Maul. So it all depends greatly on your point of view. :)

    But, I say that Obi-Wan in his prime could kick them all. Chosen One or not...but that's a different story.
  4. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Vader seems to move a lot quicker than you may think.
  5. Darth Rolal Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 1999
    Actually, I know a great deal about martial arts and the use of weapons - I chose not to gloat.

    To be honest, comparing the level of skill shown by Darth Vader in the classic trilogy with that shown by Maul in TPM in laughable. Maul is a master, Vader is an unrefined brawler.

    It's also good to see that everybody chose to ignore the perfectly valid facts that I brought up. I won't bother wasting my time anymore.
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Darth Rolal...
    "Actually, I know a great deal about martial arts and the use of weapons - I chose not to gloat."

    Irrelevent to the discussion - we're talking about one specific martial art, Lightsaber Combat by Force-using Dark Lords of the Sith and one specific weapon, lightsabers.

    I seriously doubt you're experienced with using lightsabers, lightsaber combat in connection with the Force, or what it feels like to be a Dark Lord of the Sith. That's why your claim of being able to judge their power visually from the movies is highly dubious. You're really only seeing the least important, most incidental part of the combat and trying to make a judgement on it.
  7. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    It's my general belief, that when two masters duel the combat is largely in the force.

    This is why Obi_wan and Vader were so static on the Death Star.

    Luke vs Vader never shows us Vader's true skills, he wasn't trying to kill Luke, but plays with him. Did we ever see Maul pelt Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon with telekinetically powered objects, but Vader has no problem doing so.

    When Luke lands a lucky blow, vader is easily able to swat aside his defences. On the Death Star II, Luke needs the Dark Side to match Vader in battle.

    The difference in force strength between Vader and Maul would mean that Maul would have his skills reduced by the amount of force power that Vader could hurl at him. It would be like being battered by a powerful wind. Maul couldn't defeat Obi-Wan with the force when he was an apprentice, he could never match the master that Vader is.
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Of course, Maul dying was necessary to the way George had the story planned out, so we shouldn't take that at face value, so never mind..

    But anyhow:

    Lightsabre combat is not terribly different from regular sword-fighting. I use the same style Qui-Gon did, albeit more quickly.

    And in a pure sabre battle, Maul would take Vader apart. The skill level between the two of them is a pretty big gulf in favor of Maul.

    As for you folks going on about Maul's lack of Force abilities, just because we didn't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Think about it: None of us knew just how Force-strong Vader was until TESB came along and he started throwing machinery and crew members at Luke. Stating that Maul wasn't terribly Force-strong on the basis of one duel is very foolish, IMO. Note: I'm not saying that Maul was as powerful as Vader, just that he's clearly potentially more powerful than people assume he is.
    Keep in mind that Bob brown )the knedo guy from Australia) rates Vader as a poor sabre-weilder in comparison to the PT Jedi, and has nothing but praise for Maul.
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    DarthBoba...
    "Lightsabre combat is not terribly different from regular sword-fighting. I use the same style Qui-Gon did, albeit more quickly."

    No offense, Darthboba, but I find your claim of experiencing Lightsaber combat as dubious as Darth Rolal's. I don't believe you've been trained in the same style Qui-Gon used -some form of a Jedi Combat art. In fact, I also doubt you've ever fought with a lightsaber, much less fought with one using the Force. :p

    "And in a pure sabre battle, Maul would take Vader apart."

    Well, this goes against what people have been saying regarding sword techniques. I would agree with you that traditional Lightsaber combat physically appears to be similar to sword combat. However, Maul's main combat experience appears to be very similar to traditional staff fighting methods. Therefore, Maul would not appear to be well-trained at all in traditional Lightsaber Combat, as he got his butt whupped quite quickly after losing his "staff" and having to rely on "a sword."

    "Think about it: None of us knew just how Force-strong Vader was until TESB came along and he started throwing machinery and crew members at Luke."

    Not necessarily true. In ANH, we know Vader uses the Force. Also, from ANH, we know that the power to destroy a planet is insignificant to the power of the Force. Therefore, it is quite clear, Vader wielded enough power to make destroying a planet seem insignificant. From the context, it is unknown whether that fact can extend backwards in time to a wholly different situation. That is, in ANH, we know the power of the Force because it is told explicitly to us in reference to Vader. No one made such claims in TPM, so it's unknown whether Maul could match such power.
  10. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    The difference is that we saw Maul fight for his life, in a desperate struggle. If Maul wasn't using all his strength in the force to try and win, then Vader would easily beat Maul anyday, because Maul is stupid/

    Vader was effortless, he just took Luke to pieces. The only time we saw him closely matched in Force power, and thus control over the flow of the battle, was when he faced Ben and when Luke went all Dark Side, unleashing that power.

    Simple Comparison: Obi-Wan as a young apprentice could beat a young Sith Apprentice. Even though this Sith apprentice had trained in fighting other Jedi and Obi-Wan had not.

    Obi-Wan as an old master could not beat an old sith master. Even though this old Sith Master was badly damaged and in an environment suit.

    Therefore the second sith character is the more powerful, given that all the advantages were with Maul and none were with Vader, Vader still was the one to vamquish Obi-Wan.
  11. Durron001 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2001
    star 1
    Seriously Vader's ass is dead in this fight. He's a sick old man in a messed up suit which he depends on for his life. I bet if he tried to run a mile he would die of asphyxiation. He hardly has enough bodily tissue left to be called living. Maul is the most seasoned fighter of his era and I think if he had lived into the NJO, there would be yet another extinction of the jedi. And plus that lava pit must of taken away Anakin's memory cause in the classic trilogy his lightsaber skill doesn't extend far past simple bashing and swatting and ridiculous attempts at one-hit kills.
  12. Theorizer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2001
    star 1
    Well how many times have we seen Vader really try to kill someone? I don't think we ever have! The closest I've seen is the fight with Ben. And even then I don't think Vader was trying, he was talking to his old master,taunting him, before he got down to business and killed him when he saw the chance(cause he might not get another one.)

    Also for those who say "Maul is a more seasoned fighter" WTF? How many Jedi has he faced? 2(or 4 if you count Shadow Hunter) Meanwhile Vader has faced dozen of Jedi, and it's likey he didn't have delusions of grandeur and try to take them all on one-on-one.

    Nah IMO Maul's days were severly numbered from day one.
  13. AmeiaSkywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2001
    star 3
    I think Vader would win.
    We don't really know how fast Vader can be in his suit. I mean, when he was fighting Luke it wasn't like Luke was fighting really fast. I think Vader could be faster if he wanted to.
  14. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Incorrect. We've seen Vader do battle with the Dark Lady with the intent to kill her. In SotME, Vader did battle with both Luke and Leia with the intent to kill both. Based on what is said in the RoTJ novelization we can surmise that Vader was intent on killing Obi-Wan, and failed to do so. Undoubtedly there are other books and comics which show Vader doing battle with intent to kill. Genghis12 will know better about that than I.
    And despite the fact that Obi-Wan sacrificed himself on the Death Star, Vader was intent on killing him there.
  15. SithLordVader Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    quote:eek:bi-Wan as an old master could not beat an old sith master. Even though this old Sith Master was badly damaged and in an environment suit.


    LOL...you idiot obi-wan(watch the movie carefully) lowered his lightsaber and allowed himself to be killed he didnt defend himself in anyway in fact he closed his eyes. So you cannot say that he could not win. As for maul and vader.... if we look at thier skills in the movie. FOrget thier age and all the bs that is being stated and the assumptions. Vader would win he was a SITH LORD. As for maul he got killed by a youing apprentice and he wouldnt last against vader. What we see in the movies shows that vader would win.
  16. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Alright? If Darth Maul is this amzingly strong seasoned Master, why does he listen to an old little wrinkled guy in a hood? Because that man is a Sith Lord. Maul is a mere apprentice. You fail to grasp the power of Dark Jedi. If Maul, the so-called best lightsaber fighter (Which he isn't even close to) fought Sidious he would lose. Period. The Force alone would destroy Maul. Burst his lungs, stop his heart, melt his bones. That isn't a probelm for a Sith Lord.

    Assuming Maul has skills in those areas, he still could not prevent that from happening because Sidious has FAR more Force skills. You see? A Sith Lord is not to be trifled with. Vader is also a Sith Lord.

    Vader never has any challenges. He wasn't trying to kill Luke, so did not fight his best. Luke, when on the DSII, gave in to the Dark Side for a little bit, surprising Vader. Vader probably wouldn't have held him at bay without the surprise, but he would have fared better. When a usual calm Jedi first gives in to rage, they are nearly unstoppable.

    Heavy suits won't slow Vader down. "Luminous Beings we are, not this crude matter." Same for Dark Jedi. They aren't luminous, but are not held back by minor weights. Vader's skill in the Force would have made the weight a trifle. Also, Vader would have considerable muscle strength. His body IS fried and messed up, but with the Force flowing through it, it doesn't really matter.

    You recall Vader stopping Han's blaster bolts? Or getting hit in the shoulder with a lightsaber? Vader is skilled in the energy absorbtion area as well, if he was grazed, he would be able to recover quicker than Maul would.

    Vader might even be quicker as well. I don't think he could be quicker, but he would have some slightly lesser, or equal speed. If Sith Lords could be beaten by apprentices, why have them at all?

    Vader is skilled all around. He is highly seasoned and knows what he is doing. Maul can fight, and have a few skills, but not enough to win.

    Seriously... Maul doesn't have any chance WHATSOEVER.
  17. SithLordVader Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Like i said VAder=Master. Spell it with me M-A-S-T-E-R MASTER he would eat maul for breakfast...(to all the ppl like phantom it is i)
  18. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    <sarcasm>Wow, I've been called an idiot by SithLordVader. How stupid do I feel? I've been watching star wars for the last 24 years and I never noticed that Obi-Wan lifted his lightsabre.

    I mean, gee, how thick could I be? I always assumed that Obi-Wan slipped on a banana skin or something, maybe they had forgotten to add it in in the special effects. </sarcasm>

    Of course Obi-Wan bloody well gave up. Do you think that was because he knew he could defeat Vader but he decided to let him run around the Galaxy a bit more and cause some more death and destruction?

    Obi-Wan knew he could not defeat Darth Vader, so he accepted his death and went on to help Luke in the afterlife.
  19. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    GrandAdmiralJello & Sithlordvader...

    1. Maul was a Sith Lord
    2. Vader held the same position under Palpatine that Maul held under Sidious. Namely - they both were apprentices to their masters.
  20. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Vader should win hands down. He's the villian of Star Wars and actually survived in a movie. Having Maul beat him would be spitting in the eye of everything SW and Vader's credibility.


  21. BOOSTERERRANT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 4
    Does anyone recall the fact that Luke is...lets see...argueably the greatest Jedi of all time? The Emperor even admittied that a mere BOY could destroy them both.

    Maul could barely defeat Obi-Wan, granted he did not defeat him in the end, but it was hard for him to get him in the darn pit.

    Vader would paste him and laugh. the end
  22. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    "Lightsaber battle is not terribly different from sword-fighting."

    Actually Darth Boba there are some major differences.

    1. The balance of a lightsaber compared to a sword. In a sword alot of weight is in the blade not so with lightsabers. The result is you hold the lightsaber and move it differently than say with a fencing foil or broadsword.

    2. In sword fighting several swords are sharp on one side of the blade. Not so with lightsabers, you have to be seriously practiced to avoid any incidental contact with something you don't want hacked off or skewered in saber duels. (use your imagination as to what I'm referring to) Also this forces differences in technique and skills from say kendo or fencing.

    3. Samurai swordfighting technique places an emphasis on ending it with one blow (the unleashing blow when removing their kitanna from its scabbard) That is something very difficult to achieve when your opponent can sense your moves through the force.

    4. Lightsaber duels are never fought without the user using the Force as a battle aid. Through Sensing your opponents moves, allowing you to make those flashy jumps and spins, and either raging you on or calming you down.

    5. in the end though all styles of sword fighting are made to be the most effecient method of using a particular sword. You couldn't put an English broadsword like Excalibur in the hands of a samurai and expect him to be as skillfull with it as King Arthur, the samurai would not know how to best use it. Likewise the Jedi/Sith are the best at Lightsaber dueling because they've developed the most effecient techniques of using that weapon (Double or single bladed).
    While that technique may have some similarities to Earth sword-fighting techniques it is their specialized and specific techniques and styles. We can not judge any Jedi/Sith's proficiency at lightsaber dueling using templates from swordfighting techniques and styles from here on Earth.
  23. DemolitionBoy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2001
    star 2
    Well actually, BOOSTERRANT, Obi-Wan Kenobi is argueably the greatest Jedi of all time. Plus he did defeat Anakin Skywalker when he first turned to the Dark Side. But thats another arugment...

    Lightsaber battle is most likely very different from normal sword fighting. First of all a Jedi is connected to his weapon with the Force. More over I doubt that you would be able to find out because of the fact that there are no working lightsabers to test theory.

    And Darth Vader(not Anakin Skywalker) couldnt possibly be as fast as Maul, Qui-Gon, or Obi-Wan in battle. Maybe with Force enhancement. But considering that he is older in the suit...

    The only reason that Maul LOOKS better in the movies is because Ray Park is a martial arts professional.

    Darth Vader
  24. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    4. Lightsaber duels are never fought without the user using the Force as a battle aid. Through Sensing your opponents moves, allowing you to make those flashy jumps and spins, and either raging you on or calming you down.


    Not so I-poodoo. In Redemption, we see Ulic Qel-Droma fighting training duels with his apprentice Vima Sunrider. And then he fights a true duel with Sylvar. All these duels are fought with him being at a disadvantage because he can no longer use the Force and his adversaries can. In the training duels, we would expect that neither Ulic nor Vima have to hold their own, since Ulic is teach Vima how to fight using a lightsaber. However, Ulic can clearly hold his own against Sylvar, even though he can't use the Force. It should be noted, however, that he had trained for years in lightsaber combat, and understands the art well.

    As for what you said about fighting in a certain style when you do not know it, makes a lot of sense. There is a great differance between using a two-handed broadsword and a fencing foil. Fencing tends to be more of a straight line, where as the use of a broadsword may well take both combatants through a circle. Also, a foil allows for faster movements as it is lighter. With a broadsword, quick movements are unwise to make. And so moves such as the moulinets would be more appropriate.
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