Full Series Darth Maul's Fate

I guess Maul still will hold some sway over the underworld. That's just a thing Maul is an expert in since his late teenage-years. Also a Ziton Moj from the Black Sun may discover that without Maul he has to fight concurrence with much more difficulty. And the Sith and the Jedi as well have to turn to the underworld sometimes to hide or to get something in a clandestine way. Maybe the rebels will too sometimes. Anyway I think in the first season of Rebels no old faces will appear to give the new characters the time and the space that they may find their way into the hearts of the SW and TCW-Fans. If you stay patient you will be rewarded richly in the next seasons, I guess. I was just surprised that Mandalore is represented by Sabine in Rebels just from the beginning. For me this is a clear hint into the direction of Maul .

 

Maul captured Grievous' remaining fleet after he took control of the capital ship and captured Grievous, and plus the remaining ground forces that shut down that were supporting Dooku's assault in issue #2 of SOD, that was a major loss for the Separatists. If they do bring Maul back for Rebels then he could be command of Separatist remnants and Mandalorians, and be a pirate like figure that sacks imperial planets and ships.

 

If he did that Palpy would bring the full might of the Imperial Star Fleet down on his pointy head.

 

Awesome!

 

The Empire isnt that mighty, you havent been watching the Rebels shorts or followed their defeats by Ewoks.

 

I could totally see maul as a big underworld person with his identity not being completely known by the empire and him having his own empire.

 

Likely Sidious/Dooku put a bounty on his head as did Republic/Empire. Plus the Hutts would want him dead, would make an interesting story if done right, guess kinda like lockdown but not set in a prison. Maul and Death Watch go after the Black Sun and Pykes for deserting them and leaving their flanks open during a war.

 

The Empire is a zillion times mightier than Maul's cabal of criminals and thugs. There's a reason he operated from the shadows in TCW.

 

That's true, the Empire has a vastly significant force compared to the Shadow Collective, Rebel Alliance, or any other group. The military might that Palpatine commands is how the Sith ruled the galaxy.

 

yea zillion, how old are you 9?! The Empire engaged in criminality and was made up of criminals and thugs , fail to see the point there. Death Watch Mandalorians were professional warriors and a militaristic society. Black Sun and Pykes were mercenaries as well as engaged in other enterprises there combined forces rivaled the Separatists and Republic at the time. I think you're under a delusion there is billions of Imperial troops and tens of thousands of Star Destroyers. In any case, the "mighty" Empire were defeated on Yavin, the failed to call in Star destroyer support along with notify the Imperial Fleet, they were so so stupid to think a few Tie Fighters could protect the station while knowing your enemy knows your weak spot and launched everything they have at you and where it only would take one torpedo to get the job done. On Hoth, they lost 2 out of 4 AT-AT's on the ground, failed to destroy any escaping Rebel transports while they lost quite a few Star Destroyers during the blockade itself and later on in the asteroid field while pursuing 1 rebel freighter the Millennium Falcon. On Endor they lost a 1 Star Destroyer, 1 Super Star Destroyer plus an even larger Death Star to the loss of only two cruisers. Point should be made that both times with their Death Stars they had their plans stolen and failed to properly secure its weak points and 2nd time they had a fleet that was ordered not to engage and rendered useless to point they may as well not of been there either.

 

If Darth Maul does fight Obi-wan again, it will inevitably have to be their final battle for continuity reasons (namely that Maul isn't around in the OT).

 

There is nothing to say that he is or isnt. The Emperor who refers to Luke under "We have a new enemy" is keen to have a new ally in Luke once Vader suggested he could be turned to the darkside, so Sidious was in always in a constant fear losing control and being killed so perhaps Maul was an old enemy still around as well if all these Sith and Sith underlings could not find him and destroy him and nor could the Jedi stop him at various times. Disney does not appear to be strictly following a dogmatic view of the OT. Maul could be in another part of the Galaxy which the Empire does not control during the OT. Rebels already takes place inbetween the lines and within a certain point of view.

In Son of Dathomir #3 he does tell Obi Wan they shall meet again soon enough, so I guess they wouldve met again in TCW had it not been canceled obviously.

 

Maul, Ventress, and any number of CW era characters could be around in the OT at this point. Perhaps they'll use the Infinities comic as a basis for a Rebels episode with Maul & Obi? SoD won't be the last we see of Maul, and if he isn't slated for any upcoming media, he could live into the OT era and be developed later.

 

Cool story; too bad it's grotesquely inaccurate.

The Shadow Collective in no way rivaled the Republic or the Separatists, which is why it opted to avoid direct conflict with either of them and why both the Pykes and Black Sun bailed on Maul in Son of Dathomir. The Collective was dangerous, but nowhere close to matching the Republic or Separatists in raw strength; there is a reason Maul and co. stuck to the shadows until forced by circumstance to fight openly. As far as the Collective vis a vis the Empire is concerned, the Galactic Empire was a galaxywide superpower; the Shadow Collective was a motley amalgamation of criminals, drug dealers, and mercenaries who are woefully outclassed in terms of numbers and hardware.

I understand that you like Maul, but your interpretation of his importance and threat level is horrifically skewed. Sidious curbstomped him in "The Lawless" and again drove him to retreat in Son of Dathomir. Maul's good, but he's out of his league next to Palpatine.

 

Whats your point? Maul held his own against Secura and Windu at the same time in SOD while Windu curb-stomped Sidious in ROTS. But you are incorrect and inaccurate as the Shadow Collective became a vast empire, once it took control of Mandalore as his captital and was going to expand by force to other parts of the galaxy . Dooku and Kenobi were targets for both Maul and Vizla. The Death Watch were interested in militarizing to become a galactic superpower again like it was once before, which it was become under Maul's regime without Vizla.

In SOD Sidious feared the power that Maul amassed for himself but not just the military but also the criminal, so he tasked Tyranus with extracting it from Maul to give up his organization over to him which Maul refused under torture.

Sidious himself used criminals and criminal organizations including the Black Sun for his ends as assets well into the SOTE time, so your judgmental and dismissive attitude is skewed to baldy flawed over its importance. Even with Maul captured, he still failed to realize all he had to do was kill him and the Shadow Collective wouldve been leaderless and would fall apart. He instead wrongly focused on Talzin who was insignificant and had no part in the Shadow Collective's formation or leadership. And Talzin viewed herself as less important than Maul as Maul has a great destiny to fulfill.

Maul openly challenged the Republic and Separatists which was the whole point of his Shadow Collectives objective, to build a force as great or greater than the Republic and Separatist (as they're made up of a finite amount of forces and fighting eachother during their civil war) beginning with Mandalore where Maul would then have access to over 2,000 neutral systems that Mandalore influenced from which he would build a vast empire.

Maul:

The other objective of the Shadow Collective was that it was hidden and tapped into the vast criminal underworld where it could subvert politicians and governments by various means and have access to a wealthy shadow economies of rich planets which would fund his war machine. The Pykes and Black Sun were military grade criminal organizations, that was point of using them to take Mandalore, and between the Hutts, Black Sun, and the Pykes alone he had a large reserve of muscle and supplies. Once Mandalore was his and even greater force. The Criminal clans had access to the funds to supply military weapons, ships and manpower to not just supply themselves but also Mandalore. And that is what the Black Sun and Pykes especially did provide the resources they needed to sustain a planetary or galactic war without the scrutiny of the Republic. The Pykes offered the same thing plus they were embedded in Corusant. The Shadow Collective was threat enough that Sidious had to use his combined armies of Republic and CIS plus Jedi and Tyranus and Grievous and still the Shadow Collective was not destroyed completely and Maul escaped. The Pykes and Black Sun were mercenaries without any shred of honor and were more interested in money and pulled outve the conflict as they lacked backbone for a prolonged conflict while Death Watch Mandalorians were a militarized society and war-like people and were doing it because its what they were born and bred to do and managed to hold on by themselves.

 

Sidious held his own against Windu and three other Jedi Masters in ROTS and the circumstances of Sidious's "defeat" at Windu's hands have already been debated at length across the internet since 2005; either way, it was most certainly not a curbstomp.

Meanwhile, Filoni has already confirmed that Sidious is beyond Maul.

Maul isn't in Sidious's league, it's just a fact.

So Maul conquering one planet constitutes "a vast empire" comparable to a Galactic Empire that spans countless worlds? That's ridiculous. Maul had aspirations of a galactic empire but never came remotely close to realizing it. His aspirations do not constitute reality.

A very liberal interpretation to say the least; Maul had gathered a network of dangerous organizations to his banner and of course Sidious would be interested in either co-opting them or removing them from the board. That in no way means that Maul's "empire" was equal or superior to the massed ranks of the Separatists or the Republic.

That Sidious used criminals and criminal organizations means that they're useful (which I never denied); it doesn't mean that they're equal to the Republic, Separatists, or the Empire, a ridiculous notion that you're trying to peddle in order to inflate Maul's relevance.

Because Maul wasn't the threat. Sidious proved that he could effortlessly defeat Maul in single combat; Talzin, as Maul's sponsor and guide, was the true problem.

No, Maul tried to operate from the shadows beneath his Master's notice until Sidious came a knockin'. He hid because he wasn't ready to challenge them outright and only did so when circumstance forced him to do so.

That's all very well and good, but it's irrelevant. No one is disputing that the Black Sun and Pykes and Death Watch are all very dangerous organizations that can complicate Palpatine's life under certain circumstances. But that in no way makes them the equal of either the Republic or Separatists, which is why the Pykes and Black Sun abandoned ship. As was the case in the OT, there is a very lopsided power relation between the Shadow Collective and either of the Clone Wars-era superpowers. The Collective eschews outright warfare and operates through deception, guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and surgical strikes. They fight openly only when forced, which is why they so often retreat.

At the end of the day, the Republic and Separatists are each vastly more powerful than the Collective and Palpatine is in a whole 'nother league compared to Maul, no matter how much you wish to disregard the events of "The Lawless."

 

The events of SoD indeed show that Talzin was the real threat to Sidious, not Maul or the Shadow Collective. From what we've seen and read - I believe she was his equal, and he orchestrated all these events to diffuse her power. That being said, Talzin saved Maul for a reason...the destiny she foresaw for him could result in him growing in power, and even outliving Sidious.

 

What I said still stands, you're curtailing the facts and argument over who is superior baby nonsense. I dont think anybody said Maul was more powerful than Sidious, nor did anyone say the Shadow Collective military were numerically equal to the Empire which came after ROTS, you're grasping at straws. What is said and proven fact is that the Shadow Collective was a major threat and rival for both the Republic and CIS and Sidious's grand plan. Sidious had to use both of those military super powers, which were both run by Sidious, he had to combine them to smash the Shadow Collective forces but they still largely survived. The Empire was not mighty, tt was largely incompetent and inept and had suffered severe loses and was in a state of civil war, a war which Sidious failed to close at the end of ROTS which still had 1)surviving Jedi 2) Loyalists Republicans whom would later form the Rebel Alliance and 3) the Separatists were still fighting their civil war with the Republic/Empire and would become part of the Rebel Alliance. Sidious failing to destroy Maul and Death Watch is just another failure on his part and another threat to his base of power and person. We have no idea of the economy involved, but industry ship and weapons makers were private and could sell to who they wanted. The Empire looks slave labor based, they likely spent all their money building overly expensive military outposts, vehicles which failed to subdue a Galaxy and probably bankrupted them like the former USSR. Most of their manpower are ill trained conscripts or shanghaied off the streets from who knows where. They are the solely bred and trained in captivity Mando inspired Clones anymore that take 5 years to produce.

SOD also puts the Lawless events to the curb, so you keeping bringing that ending up to be just be a child which typical for your kind of posters. Sidious is a major character and important for Luke and Vader for the end of the movies at that time, plus he's like the ultimate villain for all 6 movies which were at the time would be the only Star Wars movies, the beginning and end. So I dont think anybody suspected Maul to win during that duel, and Filoni himself was against it and favored a more 1 dimensional fight to kill off a character which he wanted to be Maul originally. Maul openly sent a message to the Jedi temple when he first came back and played Satine to make the transmission for help. He never hid his comeback to anyone, plus his Mandalorians were all sporting his colors, again that is not someone hiding in the shadows. Maul also led at the front of each battle during SOD, which is not something Sidious does. Maul never had any interest in selling drugs or extorting money from small business, you keep bringing up this criminal stuff as if they're petty street criminals out in the streets of L.A or something. The Crime syndicates had their own private armies and resources and funds to securing more soldiers, ships and weapons for prolonged conflicts . Maul was only interested in conquering his enemies by using various mercenaries and levied armies he could muster. Mandalore provided him perfect killing machines plus he had access to 2,000 other systems that Mandalore influenced, where those Crime Syndicates became just an added bonus. You're just trying to be annoying and wasting my time with zillion Imperials and Super Palpatine nonsense. The Shadow Collective had its own armada throughout SOD and were preparing for the CIS invasion fleet. They took on two CIS armies(destroyed Grievious 1st force and crippled and captured his 2nd). They also battled through two Jedi led Republic strike forces that had the element of surprise and they failed in eliminating or capturing Maul and it cost them most of their own forces in taking the Mandalorian base plus a Jedi Knight. Mandaloriuans are able fight the enemy on equal grounds and make tactical withdrawals when needed. They were a match for their enemies, regardless whether or not they outnumbered them, they out fought them as Mandalorians arent clones or droids but professional and ruthless warriors and their technology and training are some of the best in the Galaxy. They may of been outnumbered but they were not outclassed and still proved a lethal threat to Sidious and his powerbase and continue to do so, as Death Watch and Maul are still very much alive by the end of the comic. Killing Sidious and some Nightbrothers really had no effect. The Pykes, Black Sun and Hutts are also still around, so really what did Sidious accomplish aside from losing two armies of the CIS the answer is very little. The CIS, Republic, Sith all failed to destroy Maul or break the Mandalorians in SOD. Kast also makes mention of hunting down the Pyke and Black Sun leaders that left the battle and Collective, so that will be interesting.

As for Filoni, it is producer and writers privilege and who they like more at the end of the day and what they personally want to tell. They're not real characters, and they got control to change things for the better or the worse. But if the writing is inconsistent and abilities wax and wane at the stroke of the writers pen, the characters become less realistic and relative to just whatever they put in print or film - they lose substance. Case in point is the Darth Maul fight:

http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2

So his interpretation of that scene is unclear plus he said "I think", while the other part of the quote of Maul still not nearly being as powerful doe not preclude him not becoming as powerful in the future -in which by SOD he openly defies Sidious and threatens Sidous' life and shakes off the lightning torture of Dooku and becomes indifferent to pain all in issue #1 which was an apparent direct continuation of Lawless. So either Filoni is fickle and/ or he was hiding the issue to not spoil SOD's storyline and any future arcs thereafter. One could say by SOD Maul has grown in power since then by feeding on anger. Regardless it does lend support in speculation that Maul wasn't being literal during Lawless. In fact all his actions in SOD point that he was aware he'd possibly be captured and that Sidious would suspect an escape or prison break, he openly mocks Sidious and defiant throughout the series.

We know Lucas was personally involved with Maul and why SOD came out in comic form:

http://www.eucantina.net/archives/17587

 

So, just to be clear, it's permissible to wax poetic about how uber Maul is, but the second someone does it for someone else, they're indulging in "superior baby nonsense"?

In every engagement in Son of Dathomir, Maul's forces were decimated and he was forced to retreat. Even in issue #2, Maul's forces were battered into submission on Zanbaar until Maul forces Grievous to deactivate the droid armies; Maul himself is forced to stage a blitzkrieg on Grievous's command ship "while the guns are still aimed at the planet" because he knew that the Separatists would crush his army in anything approaching a "fair" fight (which they did); and the Nightbrothers were curbstomped by Dooku. Maul's "victories" were the product of deception and misdirection, not superior firepower, numbers, or capability. And yet even in this regard, he failed, as Sidious succeeded in using Maul to lure Talzin out in the open to snuff her out. Militarily, intellectually, and physically, Maul is simply out of his depth.

Cool story. The Empire reigned supreme across the galaxy for twenty years, fielded countless state-of-the-art warships, and destroyed planets in displays of raw military might; Maul's Shadow Collective suffered a series of constant defeats and battered into retreat time again in, what? Six months?

The double standard is thick. You're not being attacked for trumpeting Maul; why should I be attacked for trumpeting Sidious? It seems very apparent that you're upset over the fact that Sidious effortlessly defeated Maul in "The Lawless." That's not my problem; no need to blame me for the writers' decision to display Sidious's superiority over Maul so explicitly.

Nowhere is Sidious's victory cited as the result of him being "a major character." That's incidental. The real reason, consistently cited, is because he's more powerful than Maul. If higher profile characters always defeated or dominated lesser characters, I don't think Talzin (a secondary character at best) would have ever brought Dooku (a major film character) to his knees. Your "logic" is quite twisted. The only reason Sidious dominated the fight so utterly was because he is simply that much better than Maul.

Again, that's a cool story. Maul revealed his survival to the Jedi, not the greater galaxy, hence why he elected to rule behind leaders like Vizsla and Almec. Only after his defeat on Mandalore at Sidious's hands did he operate more openly; hence why I said only when circumstances forced him to.

And as I already explained to you, every time Maul took his enemies on in a straight-up, head-to-head fight, he lost. I applaud him for tactical ingenuity in employing a trap against Grievous, but the issue makes it abundantly clear that the Shadow Collective is no match for the Separatists militarily. Maul even notes that he must take advantage of the fact that the Clone Wars have spread Dooku and Grievous thin, whereas he's free to focus his entire might against them.

"Lethal threat"? The only threat Sidious recognizes is Talzin. Maul is a minor inconvenience at best since the entire storyline is revealed to be an elaborate chess match between Sidious and Talzin, with Maul being little more than a talented pawn (like Grievous or Dooku). And even then, Talzin fails. Maul is disregarded and tossed aside. He's powerful, he's clever, and he's dangerous... but he is by no means a "lethal threat" to Sidious.

https://www.facebook.com/DaveFiloni/posts/275591135901443

The entire point of "The Lawless" was apparently to put on display why Maul is but an apprentice and why Sidious is the guy in charge. Filoni makes it pretty clear that the "one dimensional" fight was chosen for a reason: Maul's not good enough to beat Sidious.

 

Vorax makes some good point. His posts convince me that we'll see a showdown of Maul's collective against the Empire, lead by Vader. It wouldn't even surprise me if this was setup for a movie!!! They must have some important plans for using Maul because otherwise he would probably be dead by now.

And about the Lawless:
Whatever you think of the fight, but giving Sidious two weapons was stupid. His previous fighting style involves one blade and now it is unclear what kind of lightsaber practitioner he is.

 

The problem is that whatever "threat" Maul poses to the Emperor and the greater Empire is extremely context-specific. The Shadow Collective simply lacks the numbers, finances, hardware to legitimately threaten any superpower faction like the Republic or Confederacy, let alone the Galactic Empire. It's no different than any terrorist group waging war against any notable nation-state, like al-Qaeda vs. the United States. Sure, they can kill troops, sure they can complicate life for the government and the citizenry, but such groups rely on terrorism, deception, and guerrilla tactics for a reason: they don't have anywhere close to the muscle needed to slug it out on even terms in the grand scale.

Vorax is trying to suggest that the Collective did just that, when it didn't.

Explain?

 

Why is "context-specific" a problem? Can't they create the perfect context for this to work?

I wouldn't compare the Shadow Collective with the al-Qaeda, because they're far better equipped and seem to be organized better. Especially the Mandalorians have top-notch equipment. So this analogy is really off.

The Shadow Collective may not be even close in power to the Empire, but that doesn't mean a fight against them would be easy. The Empire has other enemies it must fight and it also has to protect its planets and important resources. This reduces the number of troops they can deploy at any moment. If they throw everything at the shadow collective, then they will be vulnerable and will be attacked by some other force.
This is why I think an interesting plot could be written, possibly about the shadow collective connecting a star system and the Empire trying to get it back.

What's so difficult to understand? He fights with one blade against four Jedi in ROTS, but uses two blades against Opress and Maul? Why the change all of the sudden? Is he now a dual blade specialist or a specialist with one blade?

 

I'm merely seeking to debunk the notion perpetuated by Vorax that the Shadow Collective can threaten the Empire in all-out warfare. Yes, a story could absolutely be written about a smaller, weaker force challenging a much stronger one through specific circumstances. No, the al-Qaeda analogy isn't off; the Shadow Collective is comprised of thugs, criminals, and mercenaries. Are they well-equipped and dangerous? Yes, as are al-Qaeda, but they are utterly outclassed against their opponent (in this case, the Empire) militarily, hence their reliance on deception, terrorism, surgical strikes, and guerrilla warfare.

What's so difficult to understand? He fights with one blade against four Jedi in ROTS, but uses two blades against Opress and Maul? Why the change all of the sudden? Is he now a dual blade specialist or a specialist with one blade?[/quote]

Maybe he's good at both and uses however many he wants in any one particular engagement?

 

Al-Qaeda isn't well equipped. They just use whatever they can scramble up. They certainly don't have access to all the expensive drone technoloy their opponent uses. They don't have nukes or fighter jets or aircraft carriers. What they have is guns and vehicles and grenades/bombs, mostly. It's not even comparable.

The Mandalorians and Shadow Collective in general have been shown to use top-notch high-tech equipment compared to the seps or the Republic. The one thing they're missing is capital ships but they don't have much use for those. Like you said, they're not prepared for an all-out war.

 

With the CW and SoD wrapped for the time being, the Shadow Collective likely wont pose a threat to the Republic, or what will become the Empire. The real question is what is Maul doing after the events of SoD? He could be building a larger power base and rallying more to his cause. It all depends on when they reintroduce Maul to the SW timeline - if its in Rebels, post-ROTJ, Episode VII - he could have significantly grown in power and prove to be a major threat.