PT Darth Plagueis during the event of TPM

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Weavile, Oct 11, 2017.

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  1. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    First post!

    So, I recently finished the novel Darth Plagueis (which I've had on my shelf for quite some time, but never got around to reading. It is an excellent book. However, I have one huge problem with it. Plagueis is alive during the events of The Phantom Menace.

    This just... irritated me. For starters, it makes Sidious look a lot less like the mastermind behind everything and more like the weak pawn. It hurts Maul even more. Instead of being the apprentice, he's the apprentice of the apprentice, and is considerably made to look a lot weaker IMO.

    Then there is the fact that Plagueis just *happens* to be just out of sight in every Coruscant scene. Apparently he spied on Sidious and Maul during their conversation on Coruscant. And then he is with Palpatine *right before* he greets the Queen on the landing platform. When Plagueis discovers Anakin is the chosen one, he just *happens* to arrive at Palpatine's suite after Anakin has left for the Jedi Temple. And finally, he is a witness to Qui-Gon and Anakin's conversation before they leave for Naboo- offscreen.

    And then his death was kind of weird. Palpatine said he killed him in his sleep in ROTS, but in the novel he is drunk, and while he does fall asleep, he awakens immediately when Palpatine unleashes the force lightning. I always thought Palpatine killed him with his lightsaber just by ramming through his hearts. Seems like a more effective way to catch someone off guard.

    Finally, there's Yoda's quote at the end. "Always two there are. *No more, no less.* A master and an apprentice." This pretty much implies Sidious and Maul were the only Sith at the time of TPM, and I think that is what George had in mind. And then Mace Windu says "But which one was destroyed. The master, or the apprentice?" I'll tell you, Mace. The master and the apprentice of the apprentice was killed, apparently.

    I don't mean to rag on the novel, because I think it was excellent. I just wish that Plagueis' death was handled better. He should have been killed right after he murdered Veruna, IMO. What are your thoughts? Do you find it plausible or cool that Plagueis was alive during TPM? Or do you dislike it like me?
    Last edited by Darth Weavile, Oct 11, 2017
  2. darkspine10 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2014
    star 5
    I didn't mind it too much. By that point in the narrative Plagueis had mostly retired from political plans to trying to probe the mysteries of the force, leaving Palpatine doing practically all of the important work.

    I liked the bit where Plagueis was just off-screen in TPM, especially the one where he was spying on Maul and Palpatine on the balcony. Made it feel like the camera was pulling back to reveal more detail about the story.
  3. Dandelo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 7
    "Always three there are: a master, another master and an apprentice"

    so, yup I agree with the OP.

    Darth Plagueis is without a doubt a well written novel with some fantastic elements in there, but having Plagueis be alive during the TPM was a huge miscalculation IMO, it messed with the narrative too much. As a consequence I am glad that the book is now considered 'legends'. A very unpopular opinion I know. But from 1999 I took Yoda by his word "two there are: a master and an apprentice, no more no less" and that is how it will stay for me personally.
  4. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Exactly, Yoda even says *no more* than two, specifically.
  5. QsAssistant Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 2
    I've never read the Plagueis novel but wow, I don't like the idea of him being alive during TPM. I always figured Sidious killed him when he was younger. Like maybe in his twenties or something.
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  6. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No.

    The concept that he was alive and not dead long ago? Yes, I do dislike it. It contradicts the movie.
  7. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4
    Good thing it's not canon anymore.

    I don't think Plagueis should be alive at the time of Naboo events. There should be only 2 Sith, no more no less. That's the point of the story.
  8. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Plagueis being alive 10 years before TPM to possibly account for Anakin's birth? Fine. During TPM? No.
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  9. Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    Maybe what the Jedi believed about the Sith's Rule of 2 was simply NOT true? What if this is something they wanted the Jedi to believe? The Sith were evil, and their view of good was simply a point of view as Palpatine noted to Anakin. So the Rule of 2 for the Sith was at its foundation a "good" thing for their survival, but why wouldn't any Sith seek to overrule this rule for their own purposes? We definitely have seen the Sith(Master and Apprentice) seeking another apprentice while being a Master(Palpatine), or an Apprentice (Dooku-Obi-Wan,Vader-Luke). So if Plaugeis was alive during the time of TPM, then you basically had a version of this going on with the Sith.

    Master Plaugeis apprentice Sidious has his own apprentice Maul. Then Sidious kills his Master Plagueis.
  10. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Dooku and Vader recruited their targets to take down Sidious, though, so they did it behind his back. Palpatine made Plagueis aware of Maul, and he took Plagueis down by himself.
  11. cubman987 PT Book Club Host - PT Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2014
    star 5
    As much as I enjoyed this book I thought the same exact things that are presented in the OP. I think reading it as non-canon makes it a little better but I was surprised they went that route when it really seemed unnecessary to have him still be around that late in the game.

    This is always how I had pictured it as well, seems more in line with how it was described in ROTS though the way it happens in the book still technically works.
    Last edited by cubman987, Oct 12, 2017
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  12. Darth Dnej Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2013
    star 4
    Plagueis being alive during TPM is one of my few major gripes with the Darth Plagueis novel. In my mind, Plagueis should've died before Sidious discovered Maul or at least several years before TPM.
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  13. Daxon101 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2016
    star 2
    I wonder how they will deal with the Darth Plagueis thing in new canon.

    Will they release another novel thats canon or will they explore it in a movie at some point?
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  14. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4
    Luceno simply wanted to write an excited book. I don't blame him. In an interview he even admits that he wanted to make a Plagueis vs. Sidious duel, but Lucas and the story group denied the proposition since the movie was too clear that Plagueis died in his sleep.

    So it was Luceno's choice to carry Plagueis to the end of TPM, not the Lucas story group or Lucas's.
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    It's true that Sith try to recruit apprentices behind their masters backs all the time, but the problem is that presenting Maul as merely a runner-up Sith instead of the Sith apprentice goes against the spirit of the movie, undermines Maul's mythic stature, and renders Yoda and Mace's dramatic last conversation narratively impotent. Having Plagueis survive through to the end of TPM is just totally unnecessary and was clearly only added so the reader could go "OMG that character was right around the corner the whole time!!!", which is a well the EU in general went to far too many times.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Oct 12, 2017
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  16. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    But it is true as they show the Sith operating that way. That's why the concept is in the movie in the first place.

    Seeking a potential apprentice to take down the master doesn't make said potential a Sith. Only after the Master is gone can the apprentice take its place and name someone else its Sith apprentice.

    That basically undermines everyone. The Sith as an order, and all three individuals. The Sith works in pairs for a reason: their own survival. More than two and the weaker would work together to take down the Master. During TPM there are two Sith Lords: Sidious and Maul. If Plagueis was alive, he wouldn't allow Sidious to have an apprentice. It's stupid. Sidious might have secretly taken someone under his wing in order to help him take down Plagueis, but as an apprentice, he wouldn't have the authority to name said person a Sith Lord.

    Even in TESB, Sidious and Vader plan to turn Luke as a mere asset. Of course, in their minds, both planned to use Luke to replace the other precisely because there could only be two Sith at a time.
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  17. Dandelo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 7
    @Darth Sin

    because why wouldn't Sidious have BOTH Anakin and Dooku as apprentices?

    Dooku could still kick butt and was capable of taking out Kenobi twice.

    "Soon I will have a NEW apprentice" -Darth Sidious

    Dooku needed to be eradicated in order for Anakin to become his new apprentice

    Obi-Wan "After the death of Count Dooku, Anakin became his new apprentice"

    ROTS clearly says the rule of two is a practise amongst Sith.
    Last edited by Dandelo, Oct 12, 2017
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  18. Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    Dandelo, thank you for this, and as well as others that point out that the Rule of 2 cannot and would not be broken by any Sith. So with that said, this subject of Plaugeis possibly still being alive while during the events of TPM make no sense. Plaugeis if in fact was alive during this time, then this would well go against the Rule of 2, because Palpatine clearly has had Maul has an established apprentice of his for some time.

    So if Plaugeis were still alive during this time, it could only mean one thing for me, and that is that Palpatine did kill him, but somehow Plaugeis was able to come back from death, or was not fully dead when Palpatine believed he killed him(maybe even faked his death).

    With what we have learned about Plageuis and his ability to keep others from dying, it would not be far-fetched to think he could return from the dead(somehow learned how to do this). If Palpatine did not kill him with his saber, but Force lightning, then I definitely can believe he could not have been fully dead, or could return from the dead. Watching Yoda be able to handle Sith lightning from Dooku and Palpatine makes me think that Plageuis with his supposed knowledge of the Force might could absorb the lightning and then return from the dead and then go into hiding.
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  19. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No, Plagueis is dead. Not believed to be dead nor did he came back from the dead:

    "Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself." - Palpatine
  20. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    If they found a way for Maul to come back, I wouldn't count out Plagueis just yet. What happened to his body? Darth Krayt came back in the EU after a time. Or someone else uses a ritual to bring him back. Get creative with it.
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