Saga Darth-Son Love or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Empire Strikes Back (Again)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Mystery Roach, Nov 23, 2012.

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  1. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Do you mean just skip over Episode IV? That could be interesting, although all my previous attempts at deviating from the I-VI order have failed because I just have a hard time keeping the thread of the overall story in mind when it doesn't flow in a logical linear progression.
  2. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    HAH! Technically, Vader was responsible for the execution of Owen & Beru, but it's not like he watched it happen, and it wasn't personal anyway. He mightn't have even been aware it was happening.

    The snake pit that is the family known as Corleone will always trump the Family Skywalker when it comes to tragedy, betrayal & venom. I could see Michael Corleone arranging for Vader's assassination via Tarkin early on if it suited him, Vader wouldn't see it coming, and Palps would probably just grumble a bit, then continue to pay his Godfather every month. Those Death Stars don't build themselves.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  4. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    MysteryRoach: Yeah, watch III and V back-to-back, as if it were a four-and-a half-hour movie. It has everything--deceit, betrayal, child slaughter, spousal abuse, obsession, mutilation, immolation, attempted suicide--without any filters. (Apart from the relief that Luke didn't become a war criminal and that Leia wasn't reduced to being her father's, er...personal hostage aboard the Executor.)
  5. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    And a hint of incest to that (even if unintentional).

    I'd also add Tatooine scenes from AOTC to the mix. Losing one's mother, revenge against her murderers (and rapists, one suspects) and another side of Oedipus complex.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I never even considered such a thing! :eek:
  7. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Well, maybe because I'm a woman but it's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw Shmi in AOTC.
    Also, the sequence is based on the Searchers.
  8. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Nomad peoples on lawless planets tend to do things like desecrate corpses and rape the women of other tribes. It takes a bit more than just plain murder to warrant the reputation of "animals".

    Hey, don't forget genocide! "And not just the men, but the women and the children too."

    That, and any time you find a bound woman in a dissociative state in a movie or crime drama, it doesn't need much explanation.
    Last edited by StampidHD280pro, Dec 1, 2012
  9. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Bob Clark has a good write-up in his AOTC review:
    http://wondersinthedark.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/bob-strikes-back-at-attack-of-the-clones-naysayers/

    Filmed in 1956, John Ford’s tale of Confederate veteran Ethan Edwards (John Wayne) returning to Texas after the Civil War to find his brother’s family slain by a Comanche raid, the wife and eldest daughter violated so bad that even he can’t bear to look. While he and part-Cherokee family friend Martin (Jeffrey Hunter) spend years on the trail of the younger daughter, they learn that she has grown into a young woman (Natalie Wood) raised by the Comanche tribe, and as time goes on, Ethan believes the only way to bring justice is to find the girl and put her out of her misery. Wayne’s performance stands as one of the most unsettling and effective of his career, playing a racist, violent man with no illusions of his moral character, who can only find peace and solace in the destruction of an enemy who has taken everything from him. But to modern audiences, what is far more evident and palpable in the filmis not the usual vilified portrayal of Native Americans as bloodthirsty savages, but instead is the unspoken emphasis Ford places on the awareness and coldblooded treatment of sexual-violence. As much as anything, The Searchers is a story about rape, and thanks to Lucas’ careful imitation of a handful of shots as Anakin approaches the Tusken Raiders who have abducted his mother, so too is Attack of the Clones, however briefly. While critics were quick to point out the similarities between Luke’s discovery of the burning Lars homestead in A New Hope and Ethan’s discovery of his brother’s ranch after the Comanche attack, it is only in Episode II where Lucas explicitly uses to The Searchers to articulate through reference that which can only be implied in the body of the film itself.

    Again, we have a potential problem in the making thanks to the relative obscurity of the director’s connection—unless you’ve seen Ford’s film and understand its sexual, as well as racial politics, it may not be entirely clear exactly why the Sand People have abducted Anakin’s mother. All you get from the movie itself are the unsettling implications of Pernilla August being found victimized by beatings and bondage, and her delirious last moments, but even those slight clues are enough, a set of discreet signifiers as polite and unsettling as Bunuel’s perverse glimpse of snails on a murdered girl’s legs fromDiary of a Chambermaid. And besides, The Searchers also only ever really alluded to the worse-than-death-fates visited upon the women who Ethan spends years trying to avenge—with nothing more than a few stone-faced shots of men standing at the threshold of crime scenes, only just barely able to look in at where the camera dare not point itself, the film eloquently addresses the subject of sexual victimization without ever needing to lay it bare for all to see. Just as Ford did as much as he could to imply the full extent of the Commanche’s attack through visual and verbal cues (all those cries of “Don’t go in there!”), Lucas plants enough evidence in the mere trauma of Shmi’s capture and murder to deliver the film’s most potent emotional moment. Perhaps the price we pay, as an audience, for such ultra intertextuality between the director’s filmmaking and world cinema is its increasingly insular-franchise mentality, but when Lucas concentrates on delivering goods with as much of a connection outside of Star Wars as within it, and with such bold, risky strokes, it’s hard to take your eyes away.
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Dec 1, 2012
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We know so little about Tusken physiology... are they even compatible?
  11. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    It doesn't have to be literal. Jabba is definitely not compatible, but the hints of sexual abuse are still obvious.
  12. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Natalie: Thank you for mentioning Luke and Leia's incestuous kiss; I knew I forgot something.

    And remember folks: When the villain tortures his daughter and entombs her prospective husband, it bloody well points to something. "Forget it Luke, it's Chinatown."
  13. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    The threat of it, anyway. "Soon, you will learn to appreciate me." [face_sick]
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Now I'm really confused. Are you saying they used their gaffi sticks?
  15. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    When Leia threatened him, he LICKED her. Dude, anything physically possible that he wants to do to you will scar you for life.
  16. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    What I mean is it's a family movie. Can't have more than hints. Lucas didn't even want to show husband and wife in bed together (that was Hayden's idea apparently).
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Is this thread a family movie? Can't we have more than hints?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 1, 2012
  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Are you asking me? I'm not a manager :confused:
  19. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
  20. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Well, yeah, it's a niche site :) Besides, a lot of people just read but don't comment (especially on an older blogpost).
  21. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    This whole conversation made me thinking about why TESB always left me somewhat dissatisfied, despite my overall enjoyment. To me, Star Wars is a personal story intertwined with the larger scale events, based on our own history and mythology. Luke accepts his destiny and scores a victory over the Empire. TESB is the only Star Wars movie where the larger picture seems to be almost perfunctory. Yes, there's the battle of Hoth, which is supposed to be a defeat but looks more like a strategic retreat: most rebels escape and regroup somewhere else. It's just thrown in there in the beginning to provide some action scenes and establish the characters to get it out of the way before the actual heart of the story happens. Vader is not even there for the Rebellion, he mostly wants to find Luke. After the destruction of the DSI, you'd think the Empire would be in a very vulnerable state and yet both Vader and Palpatine seem to be only interested in getting Luke and forget the larger picture, which is not like them at all. The rebels are not much better: they're sitting it out in some remote base on an insignificant planet instead of organizing more worlds into putting up resistance against the Empire. They have fleet after all, why don't they use it? TESB basically resets the victory in ANH and keeps the Civil War storyline in limbo until ROTJ. Even TPM advances the global story more: Palpatine becomes Chancellor, the Sith appear for the first time in a thousand years along with the Chose One who's supposed to bring balance to the Force.

    The falling out of this oversight is that Han and Leia don't have much to do other than playing bait for Luke (as opposed to ANH, where they're key characters on their own). Leia's personal loss is never acknowledged again, Han is sort of the same as he was at the end of ANH and they suddenly have feelings for each other even though they could barely stand each other before. They also never talk to each other as adults (even as adults in adventure movies). I used to be very annoyed at how Han and Leia were handled in ROTJ until I realized it was TESB that dropped their character development for the first time.

    All in all, everything related to Luke, Yoda, Vader and Cloud City is awesome. The rest, while polished and well executed, feels somewhat empty of content relative to other Star Wars movies.
  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    This might be one of the things I like best. I don't need every character to be The Most Interesting Man In The World, I don't need every ship to the The Flagship, and I don't need every plot to be An Epic Struggle Between Good and Evil For The Soul Of The Galaxy. (I'm not saying you do, I'm just constructing a straw man opposite my position.) Star Wars takes all kinds, I guess.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  23. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_shame_on_you] Now, now, drg4. Leia's torture by Vader and Han's 'entombment' don't happen together in the same film!!!!*

    And....Han had a price on his head courtesy of Jabba the Hutt. He didn't know that Leia was his daughter, so this wasn't a 'jealous dad' thing.

    * "minutiae-hunt...minutiae, hunt!!!"
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Dec 3, 2012
  24. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, I don't want everyone to be a VIP either. In fact, my only gripe with TESB is that nothing except Luke/Vader subplot gets proper development. I'd like to see more about what the Rebels, Imperials and galaxy at large are up to. Han and Leia definitely could have had more interesting roles to serve.
  25. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    [IMG]ESB is my least favourite out the OT

    there I said it
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