Saga Darth-Son Love or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Empire Strikes Back (Again)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Mystery Roach, Nov 23, 2012.

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  1. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    I find myself agreeing with both Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn AND - Na TaLie- .


    Thing is, this was a 'problem' since the beginning. From the start, in 1980, TESB on it's own had basically 're-written' the political situation of the galaxy. Some could even say that it had 'ret-conned' the political situation of SW/ANH.


    food for thought.....[face_thinking]
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Dec 3, 2012
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Just to clarify, but wasn't Leia tortured in ESB as well? We see Han and Chewbacca tortured and (although we don't directly see anything done to Leia), when Luke is on Dagobah, he senses that both Han and Leia are in pain.

    I mean, the whole point of the torture was to draw Luke out, wasn't it? I doubt that anyone but Boba Fett cared about the price on Han's head anyway.
  3. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    --Leia was indeed tortured in TESB, as relayed to us by a telepathic Luke Skywalker.

    --"Jealous dad thing" doesn't hold up in my court. If Leia claims she "always knew" Luke was her brother, then I shall insist that this sick, satanic rotter always knew Leia was kin.

    Burn in Jedi Hell, Anakin Christensen Vader Darth Sebastian Skywalker!
    Last edited by drg4, Dec 3, 2012
  4. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    I've always assumed that Luke's sensing Leia's pain as she sees Han being carbon-frozen.
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  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I guess, but that strikes me as really odd. Why not simply have Luke sense Han's pain at being frozen then? Why include his scene of torture in the first place? I was always under the impression that they were all purposefully tortured in order to draw Luke out.

    Admittedly, I might be more inclined to think that because I think there's something deliciously messed up about Anakin basically using knowledge of himself (as 19/20 year old Anakin Skywalker who chased after his mother) to draw out his kid. It suggests a rather horrific level of detached coldness.
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  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    o_O


    [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]

    As for "burn in Jedi Hell"...nope, NOT in Lucas' version*** of SW. Remember, one goes to "Jedi Heaven", if one belongs to the 'right' organization...:rolleyes: The Force is ok with having a 'Dark Side', but NOT okay with the Sith/Jedi who leave the organization o_O ....UNLESS they're the 'Chosen One'. :rolleyes:o_O And "balance" means = Jedi but NO Sith....

    ***and Lucas' ideas are by definition always 'good' ideas, because he's the creator (end sarcasm)
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Dec 3, 2012
  7. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yes, they were purposefully tortured to draw Luke out. (BTW, that's why Vader has Chewie and Leia present in the carbon freezing chamber to begin with—and that's why he stops Fett from stunning Chewie. IMO, anyway).

    But given that they don't show Leia being tortured, and the fact that she doesn't seem in pain, in contrast to Han, when they're returned to their cell, strongly suggests she wasn't, leads me to believe the intention was that Luke felt Leia's agony at Han being frozen.


    Yeah, I agree.
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  8. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Does anybody know how this reads in the script? I wonder if there was intention there that didn't get executed on the set for whatever reason.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Nope.

    No, if one has the "right" Force skill.

    So is Lucas.

    No, who turn to the dark side.

    [face_laugh] No difference there... nothing to see here, move along...

    No, UNLESS they're redeemed.

    Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 3, 2012
  10. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I think Coppola nailed it: Lucas should have started a new religion. ;)
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  11. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    It's an odd concept, but consider Luke's words to Vader in ROTJ.
    "I sense the good, in you. The conflict." The Jedi are actually both light and dark. Nobody ever refers to "the light side", do they? The Sith, on the other hand, are entirely decisive in nature. Viewing themselves and others in absolutes.

    Because Lucas said so.:D
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  12. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    :p;):D


    Don't let the Theocrat hear you say that....[face_shhh]



    You got it, now....;)



    Right....so if a Sith like Sidious had 'learned the trick'? I think that sounds even MORE ridiculous. Good job, there. [face_laugh] =D=


    NO!!! Really? :eek:[face_tired]I-)


    [face_laugh] Glad you agree.


    "Redeemed"??? What's that? [face_whistling] And I though it was all-about having the right 'Force skill'? Man, these rules keep changing!!! [face_hypnotized]


    Ahh...I see. I must have missed the part at the end of ROTJ that said, "There's NO MORE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!!!!"
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Dec 3, 2012
  13. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    There was imbalance already in AOTC: "The dark side clouds everything". Weren't there about 9000 Jedi in the Republic by then?





    "Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"
    /LM
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It is true that your story sounds ridiculous. Stick with Lucas's. Or Stover's.

    I really don't.

    Exactly. =D=

    No, you thought it was about being the "Chosen One". Your story keeps changing.

    That's because no more dark side of the Force is not balance. All of one thing and none of the other is the exact opposite of balance. Balance of the Force does not mean "Jedi-Sith head count".
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 4, 2012
  15. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I think they were in a bit of a pickle writing the sequels because the destruction of the Death Star was supposed to be such a decisive victory for the Alliance, while at the same time, Rebels still needed to be the underdogs to maintain suspense. However, one victory, even a big one, doesn't mean the end of the war. Darth Vader has survived, the Empire is still around, it still has more starships and resources than the Alliance. So I think they were on the right track with the "Empire striking back" part of plot in the first half of TESB, it was simply underdeveloped.
  16. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    The storyline for Empire was created when Lucas thought about the Saga as a series of an unknown number of movies of the Rebels fighting the Empire, as in the old serials. The "larger picture" just provides the context but each chapter isn't meant to alter things substantially. It's just the backdrop for the plot of each movie.

    Of course, with the series transforming into a unified Saga, Empire lacks any progress in the "larger picture", just as episode IV lacks content in the "personal picture-regarding Anakin".
  17. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Empire almost feels like two movies in one. The first half is a random adventure in the GFFA and the second half is a personal story of Luke with other elements such as Han being frozen that also sets up ROTJ and has an effect on the whole saga with Vader's revelation. What's missing here is addressing the changes in the war and galactic politics that the destruction of the Death Star should have brought and an opportunity to give Leia and Han more important roles in the story. The more I watch TESB, the more boring the Hoth scenes become. I just want to skip them and go directly to Dagobah.
  18. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Personally speaking, the originals do not work as a trilogy.

    Star Wars is a near-perfect, self-contained fairy tale.

    TESB refashions the narrative into a Greek tragedy, but in doing so, betrays the palatable simplicity of the plot and archetypal characters. (The Empire/Rebellion dynamic is set back to square one; Vader's a Pappy; Obi-Wan is a damn liar, ad infinitum)

    ROTJ opts to synthesize the two approaches, but offers only cloying sentimentality and undercooked drama. It serves two masters, but is the heir to neither.

    My ideal would have Star Wars existing in a vacuum, and then having an Empire trilogy that explores a more meditative, melancholic universe.
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I actually think it works ok, despite the differences in style and amount of retcons - especially in ROTJ. Talk about some lazy storytelling...

    My pet theory is that almost everyone was tired of Star Wars by that point and just wanted to have the damn thing over and who cares about continuity, believability, decent dialogue or acting.

    I still think there was a way to make Empire a proper middle chapter. Address Leia's tragic past and make her a political leader that tries to unite the opposition to Empire. Han can be a smuggler who successfully runs through the Imperial blockades, delivering supplies or secrete message between Alliance leaders. Luke can have the same role as he does in the movie: the rising star among the Rebel commanders whose affinity with the Force makes gives him a significant edge - enough to attract attention of the Imperial Intelligence and Lord Vader himself.

    Meanwhile, the Empire can try to back the disbanded Senate and promising non-retaliation to the systems as long as they don't support the bloody Rebels thereby threatening the support for the Rebellion. At this point, Vader has two goals: destroy the Rebels and get Luke to join the Dark Side. He can kill two birds with one stone by simply setting a big trap for the Rebel forces. No need to waste time sending probes everywhere. If his son is anything like him, he'll be there to be a hero. Instead of an irrelevant defeat on an insignificant planet, Empire can attack an important system and really hurt the Rebel fleet (Pearl Harbor?). The second half can still be similar to what it is, except Lando can be a mining operation owner that Leia wants to convince to provide supplies for Rebellion instead of just a random associate of Han's. And redo Han/Leia dynamic, it doesn't make sense as it's presented.

    As for ROTJ, I don't even know, maybe cut all the padding and filler have an actual sister of Luke's (not Leia) show up under some guise? One of the ideas involved Han's stepfather, that could be worth exploring too.
  20. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3

    My take on this is that the prequels ruined everything. We see love stories as insipid and hollow (thanks completely laughable "romance" in AOTC), characters are shallow and unrelatable (thank you completely irredeemable Padme and Mannequin), and we don't care about them, and the force has been demystified (thanks midichlorians and Jedi training academy). We learn the Jedi are cold, loveless monks who are pretty stupid and lack deductive reasoning. All of the wisdom Yoda dispensed to Luke through his training is utterly ruined and rendered null. The force is not something one attains though enlightenment, but through parasites.

    All things caused by the prequels. How can something that used to be great be suddenly ruined 25 years after it came out? Congratulations, prequels.
    Last edited by janstett, Dec 16, 2012
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  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Wrong. Midichlorians are not the Force. All that is demystified is the occurrence of Force sensitivity, and that is a good thing. The alternative is "just because".

    This should read "who are pretty fictional and consequently lack the information spoonfed to the audience". But hey, if that's what we're calling "smart" these days, go for it.

    These things are not mutually exclusive as erroneously implied.
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  22. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Another argumentum ad populum. Who's this "we"? Speak for yourself, man.
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  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Nov 5, 2001
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  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think my biggest issues with ESB (and this bleeds into ROTJ as well) is that it often seems as though it's killing time and it has no idea what to do with Han or Leia. What I mean is, there's parts of the movie where I wonder "what does this have to do with anything?" and "why are you showing us this?" A big one would be the Battle of Hoth. What exactly is the point of it? Nothing seems to change in regards to the status quo. You could just as easily begin ESB with Luke already on Dagobah and Han and Leia being chased by Vader and absolutely nothing would change -- it doesn't set anything up or provide any context beyond Obi-Wan appearing as a Force ghost.

    I say this because, more than any other film series, Star Wars is telling an absolutely immense story (spanning two wars and two generations) in 13.5 hours. There's a lot to tell. Of course, there's always fun action sequences that are left in (such as the asteroid chase) that I don't have an issue with, but when the movie spends a lot of time in one location and nothing really advances, I'm left wondering what the point was. It's the same with Han and Leia hiding in the worm/cave -- it feels as though no one knew what to do with them while Luke was training and so they had them kill time hiding while the romance developed.

    The romance itself also feels tacked on, in the sense that it seems as though after ANH no one knew what to do with Han and Leia anymore and thus decided that they should fall in love.

    For me, it's not an issue of how the prequels interplay with the original trilogy, but rather that it seems as though the OT lacks internal coherence.
  25. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Half of TESB and ROTJ seems like a filler or padding. I get a feeling that GL had a story for one movie and split it into two to make a "trilogy". Of course, you can probably say the same about parts of TPM and AOTC.

    Another potential explanation is that Lucas became an independent filmmaker after ANH. Before that, he'd still had to get his script approved by the studio and he hadn't had as many responsibilities as a head of a corporation. So he came up with the twist and built the whole movie around it but didn't have time to flesh out other themes. Fans often think Lucas acquired a tendency to get carried away starting with ROTJ but I think it happened right after ANH. It wasn't as noticeable in Empire because it didn't get to ridiculous levels such as ewoks or Jar Jar but it certainly affected the plot.
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