Darth Vader (Empire Strikes Back) VS Anakin Skywalker (Revenge Of The Sith)

Influence = influence. Influence is a word, and it has a meaning. You could ask Piett about it.

You're the one that brought the video game into it. The difference is the whole point.

Whatever. You referred to him "giving his all" in both the game and the film. And yet you admit he is more powerful in the game. That is a contradiction.

Canonically untrue, but it works against your stance anyway. Vader should be doing anything Kota can do.

I thought power levels supposedly meant "nothing". If that were true the above scenarios would not be described as "overpowered".

 

Nope, there are so many different kinds of influences. You have absolutely no idea what Vader was feeling and why he didn't kill Piett. It could just be that he had his quota of violence for the day, just coming from beating up and almost killing his son. You're just guessing as usual.

Yeah to show the point that Vader was being consistantly written the same way. This is how Lucas viewed Vader, not a super unstoppable powerful sith, he was just a pathetic broken puppet of Sidious.
You were the one that brought in the whole powerlevels thing which proves nothing.

Yes he did, and again every one was overpowered. It's not a contradiction cus i'm not comparing their powers cross-mediums, you are the one doing that.

No it doesn't, and Vader defeated Kota with ease, so did Sidious. Yet the single act of bringing down half a space station would have seemed more believable done by a more powerful jedi.
But you go ahead, use that as evidence that Vader,Sidious,Obi and everyone else was holding back in the original trilogy.

They do mean nothing when you are trying to compare them across mediums, which is what you do.

 

By the same token, you have absolutely no idea what Vader was feeling in ROTJ. The problem with your rules of logic is that for some strange reason they only work in your favor.

I already disproved the false allegations of having made any of this up, by citing sources which were predictably ignored.

Which doesn't help your position at all.

Go ahead putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about Obi-Wan or Sidious.

No, it was you, you're just trying to pretend it didn't happen because it tripped you up. You're the one that brought up the game in the first place.

 

Yeah, so therefor i don't make stuff up and presume to claim Vader was holding back, unlike you.

Nope, i didn't ignore anything. Your sources were flawed and didn't prove your initial point, which is you saying Vader was holding back.

Yeah because by your reasoning you'll convince yourself that Kota was holding back just duh because you think so.

No no no, you can't just use Vader and not any of the other characters we've seen. Obi in the prequels does far more impressive stuff then anything we see him do in the orginal trilogy, this does not mean he was holding back.
Sidious was shown far more powerful in the prequels,game,then in the original trilogy, this does not mean he was holding back.
You compare one character to his previous showing, then you must compare all the characters that appear different.

Haha, tripped up? Nope, not even close. Again Vader "the character" is consistant. You Arawn are the one comparing videogames to movies. I brought the game up for a different reason and you are the one latching on "powerlevel".

 

This isn't me:

...

I already said the sources were not meant to prove any point, but to disprove the concept that I was "making it all up". You have no basis for calling any source "flawed", which is something you haven't proved for any EU source, you just give amount of years elapsed. If you're going to refer to TFU, one EU source is as good as another.

My sources prove I didn't make anything up; you know this by now, so continuing to say I did is pointless. Also, you continue to misrepresent my position. I stated consistently that it was a possibility, and you have found no way to disprove it.

You brought the game up for a reason which has no relevance to the question?

 

Nah really? It's not a secret genius, he was portrayed more powerful in the game, that doesn't mean that he was. And the point you ignored was me stating him always going full out, in the game and the movies.

But you are making it up, your sources did not prove that you didn't.
Yeah i do, if it was not shown,said in anyway then it did not happen, therefor one would not make up their own story, except you ofcourse.
Nope, there are various degrees of canon-EU and TFU is amongst the highest. Vader has only had one apprentice and that is Starkiller who was ok'd by Lucas.

Your sources proved nothing. No,you repeating that mantra doesn't make it true.
I don't need to disprove it cus it's not a possibility.

I brought the game up for different reasons, you just latched on powerlevels and got stuck on that.
My reasons for bringing TFU to the arguement was clear enough, Vader=terrible evil daddy+ Starkiller/Vader=Luke/Vader + Vader=Sidious's puppet.

 

The fact that they exist proves I didn't make anything up.

That is contradictory nonsense.

Why not? Because you say so? You have to prove it's not a possibility, otherwise it remains possible.

Comparing videogames to movies again, and now you're treating TFU as non-canon. So you feel free to ignore any source, including your own.

Like Jedi going to the bathroom didn't happen?

No, what actually happened was I cited that several times because it leads to a contradiction. If he's going full out in the game but that is a greater display of power than the movies, then he's not going full out in the movies.

You presume to claim Vader was not holding back, something that also was not said.

Your stance reduces "influence" to mean the same thing as non-influence, another fallacy.

 

Wrong again, you were unable to prove your "possibility" with your sources.

Look who's talking.

Hell no, i don't have to proof anything cus there is no valid source to prove that it is a possibility except you claiming it to be one. And your word is definitely not good enough for me.

No, TFU is Expanded universe and made canon by Lucas. All those other comics,novels,games,ect can't say the same.

Nice, comparing something that is a universel fact to somthing you made up in your own mind based on a + 20years old script.
They're not even comperable in the least.

Ah that's what you are trying to prove, nice try but no.
He does go full out in both movies and game, but that does not mean that the show of power can be compared or be drawn faulty conclusions from.
Lucas wanted a more grounded kind of fighting in the movies, he didn't want jedi combat to look too "fake" as he put it in the making of ROTS.
Games do not have that issue, they can be over the top,inhuman movements,ect.

 

The fact that I had sources disproves the accusation that I made it up, which I've said repeatedly. Yet every time you hear the word "sources" the same thing happens - you tell me the sources don't prove my position. I knew you would say that before I even brought them up, because they're EU and this is not Literature. I'm not saying the sources prove my position. By the same token nothing proves your position.

That works both ways.

The point was that you also dispute TFU's stance, as you would any source which contradicts you.

Because gameplay is not canon.

It's called a contradiction, because you already drew a conclusion from it by saying he goes full out.

 

Then what the hell are you trying to prove?

No i did not, TFU is expanded universe, it expands upon Lucas's movies. But it is also canon cus TFU is what happend between the trilogies according to Lucas.

You're pretty much hopeless if you don't even know that.

No, it's called paying attention, Vader was unable to best Starkiller and even in the non-canon ending he lost his life. He was never holding back. Same goes for his duals with Luke, he almost killed him in ESB. In ROTJ he tries everything he can think of to defeat Luke, including threatning his sister. We were not shown any shred of conflict outside of Luke mentioning it. Which only resulted in Vader trying more harder to defeat Luke, which ends with him mentioning what he would do to Luke's sister if he didn't turn, Vader last desperate attempt.

 

Read the above post again.

Luke was proven right in the end regarding the good in Anakin. This implies Luke was right about the conflict in Anakin; we were shown it in ROTJ and we could already see it in TESB. You admitted its existence yourself, and there is nothing that proves Luke wrong on that count.

If he was never holding back in both cases and one is a greater display of power than the other, there is a contradiction.

 

Nope,you still don't make any sense.

He was right about an emotional conflict buried very deeply inside of Vader. Vader was still evil and almost killed Luke several times.
Anakin was only freed right at the end, when he decided to save his son.
And that's total bull, we have no idea why he decided to no kill Piett. You are making rash assumptions, it can't be proven that it has anything to do with Vader's conflict.
Luke was also wrong in that he didn't not believe Vader would turn him to Sidious or that "he can't do this."

Jeez, it goes right over your head. Power can't be compared between movies,games and other medieums. They operate on different rules.

 

Vader could have killed Luke if he wanted to. He got very angry at someone else who tried to kill him.

There is no rash assumption, I got the idea from somewhere else.

By the same token you cannot prove your presumption that Vader's conflict has no effect.

You said TFU was canon, and that includes Vader's power. You can't have it both ways.

 

No EU.
And yes he could have killed him in ESB, but that wasn't his goal. Luke would only be killed if he didn't turn.

Yeah your "sources", good luck with that.

No no, it did have effect, it pissed off Vader even more.
And it still stands, confirmed by Lucas Luke was holding back. Not confirmed by Lucas Vader was holding back. Except in Arawn's make believe mind.

Game powers are canon to the medium videogames, movie powers are canon to the medium movies.
Once you criss cross these you will get a heap of plot-holes. For example the damage Vader took in TFU is much more severe then his wounds in ROTJ, yet he dies of his injuries in the latter. Why is this? Because one is a game and the other is live-action!

 

Some EU has Lucas involvement. Funny, I thought that was your idea. I guess it's only true if you think it helps your case.

The point is that sources are not rash assumptions. You just can't resist pretending that I made something up.

The same applies to ROTJ.

Great, you've defeated the imaginary person who said Luke was not holding back.

You admit Vader was conflicted. Also not confirmed by Lucas: your belief that the conflict had the opposite effect.

Because TFU does not agree with the films? You're the one that said it was canon. Now you're inventing your own rules to talk around that.

 

Not the 100% approvel he has given to TFU and accepting it into his canon.

That was to point out the second line. Luke being confirmed to hold back and Vader wasn't. Really.

Yeah, he was conflicted, i didn't say that he wasn't. But you jump from being conflicted to believing the possibility that he was holding back, and that i disagree with. Conflicted doesn't not equal holding back.

Sure that is my own believe, just like how you believe Vader could be holding back.
But that still does not change the fact that you don't have any proof that Vader was holding back, not like how Luke holding back is confirmed.

I'm not talking around anything except you because you don't seem to grasp even the simplest of ideas.
THe stories of both are canon, yet they can not be mixed trough one another. Several characters in the game, including Vader and Starkiller are also struck by a lightsaber, yet they don't lose any limbs. Does this mean that a glowing lightstick that don't do any real damage is canon? No, it's that way because it's a game made for almost all the fans including the younger ones.

 

You don't have any proof that he wasn't, so I guess we agree to disagree.

There's a fly in the ointment somewhere.

 

Agree to disagree, no problem.

Haha

 

Anakin may have lost potential, but that would not stop him increasing in ability.

Ability wise he was stronger than Anakin in the Force.

 

Pre-suit Anakin would have no problem of beating OT Vader.

 

How? OT Vader has the advantage in just about everything but speed.I'm guessing all Vader has to do is use the force and throw him across the room like Dooku did to Kenobi.

 

^ Exactly... PT Anakin would probably be quicker in a fight, but OT Vader seems even stronger and is probably more in control of the Force... throwing objects with the Force, Force-choking people to death from another part of a large ship, etc. Plus he seems to have learned more of the patience and self-control that he lacked when he was younger.

 

Anakin is stronger in every aspect compared to Vader, Vader is really not all powerful. Anakin has the speed and Force ability to take Vader out. Darth Vader has the strength, but I still see Anakin not having much trouble against him.

 

Anakin was also stronger than Obi-Wan in almost every way, and you saw how THAT turned out. As has been said, Vader has a control over himself and the Force that he lacked in RotS. ESB Vader wouldn't be so rash as to get caught off-guard with high ground nonsense.