Darth Vader

And the TPM novel contradicts the movie.

The book says sith have been dead for over 2000 years. But the tpm movie mace says the sith have been dead for a millenium. The eu goes by what the movie says over what the novel says, while incorporating the past. You can either be a movie purist or a EU reader, you can't be both.

Choose your side and go to the forum of choice. As far as I know there is a thread for AOTC spoilers/EU in the Prequal forums, that is the only place that AOTC spoilers are allowed to be discussed in conjunction to the EU, I recommend you go there right away, and stay out of the Lit forum that only goes by LFL's policy, as dictated by many of LFL's official workers, who have to get authorization by lucas. If you can't bide by those rules of this forum, then you need to leave right away.

 

Fenton, TPM novelisation doesn't contradict EU Sith history, that is just your point of view in how you read it.

I have read a few of your posts in this thread, and you are coming across as an EU basher.

There are a lot of people in this forum who love the Expanded Universe, ie: novels, comics, etc... If you don't agree with their opinions, then I suggest you leave, and post in the movie forums.

Continually bashing a topic and people's views is a form of trolling, and provoking arguments.

 

This Discussion may go on forever because there are some who dont believe but they will realize that their wrong when we all see AOTC.

As much as I hate to say it End of story

 

Until these rumors and reports are confirmed in the actual movie, the EU still stands as valid.

They aren't rumors and whoever said they were is a fool. They have all been confirmed, and have been known for many months.

 

Skywalker_Kenobi says...

George Lucas created the name Coruscant.

Wrong again, S_K. A TOS article proved it once and for all. It said that Lucas created the city-planet through his Lucasfilm artists as far back as the late 70's, but that Timothy Zahn created the name. Lucas adopted it for the PT. You want a link with that bomb?

EU is based on what George Lucas created, GL created a universe where there are Jedi and Sith - not Dark Jedi. Dark Jedi were created by EU authors because they didn't know about the Sith, just like they didn't know about Boba Fetts past - its the samething. There is no Dark Jedi, there was no Sith race, Ulic Qel Droma never become a Sith Lord, just like Boba Fett was never journyman from Concord Dawn.

Dude, Fenton...George Lucas came up with background information on the Sith to give to Tom Veitch and Kevin Anderson to use with the Tales of the Jedi comic series. This was used with Exar Kun...who also happens to have a double-bladed lightsaber.

That's Lucas's direct involvement. And while he changed some things for the movie Sith in the TPM novelization, all of the stuff was smoothed over and streamlined between the "old" and "New Sith" in StarWars.com articles and the Essential Chronology.

As I said in another thread, your lack of information is what is making you hold onto false fan theories.

The offical site uses EU in its databank, so no its not even close to cannon. The Sith STARTED 2000 years before TPM, that Jedi who left was the first Sith Lord - there was no race, no invason, no Sith war. The Sith are 2000 years old - and once a Jedi falls to the darkside he comes a Sith.

If only the movies are canon, then all of your Sith information is lost. The novelizations are EU --- novelization info is most often used in the "Expanded Universe" section of the SW databanks at TOS.

Also, a MOVIE source --- Ewoks - The Battle for Endor, has a darksider who is not a Sith.

You're painting yourself into a very small corner here.

You have to accept that GL doesn't really care about EU that much - if he did Anakin wouldn't ahve build 3PO, the senate would have looked like they described it in New Rebellion, and Boba Fett wouldn't be a clone just to name a few. He rewrote the Sith History as to how he saw/wanted it. The Sith race will not be mentioned - it seems I'm more into the rumors about AotC then you are, I know what I'm about.

You list more stuff where no contradictions exist.

No source ever said Fett was not a clone, the Senate in The New Rebellion may be a changed Senate, or it may not even be the same building, and Anakin RESTORED C-3PO. For the latter, there was a movie forum debate on that, and I provided information direct from TOS ( under Movies ) that says Anakin salavaged Threepio from existing scrap. AND, he's obviously not his own type of droid. TC-14 existed before him, and other droids just like him are on Leia's ship and Cloud City.

Please. This is just plain sad. You're losing. I suggest spreading your gospel in the Classic Trilogy forum.

"What about the Massassi Temple on Yavin 4?" - EU, GL didn't create the Massassi. If he wants to change it he can. Right now, the Massassi exist and went extent without the influence of Kun and the Darkside.

Lucas DID create the Massassi. The term, and the temple at least. Look at any ANH script...It describes the Rebel base as "Massassi temple".

I've read the interview by the Author of TotJ, and never once says that GL told him to make Kun a Sith - only that he knew what the Sith were, used them and created a history for them, GL did not do that.

"The villain of Jedi Academy was planned as the spirit of a long-dead Dark Jedi. Anderson and Veitch bounced the story idea off Lucasfilm, and George Lucas suggested they turn the character into a Dark Lord of the Sith.

'We said, 'Okay, what's that?' We recieved reams of background on it, and from there developed this nasty bad guy, Exar Kun."

'To write this series, we would have

 

"The book says sith have been dead for over 2000 years. But the tpm movie mace says the sith have been dead for a millenium." - The novel says that the 50 original Sith only stayed together for a few weeks (2000 years before TPM) but they didn't go extent until 1000 years. No one has ever said that the Sith whiped each other out in one big battle. The main idea is that it took 1000 years for the Jedi and Sith to completly whip out the Sith (with the exception of Bane).

"Dude, Fenton...George Lucas came up with background information on the Sith to give to Tom Veitch and Kevin Anderson to use with the Tales of the Jedi comic series" - Read the making of process in the graphic novel. They say themselves that GL's only real involvement in the story was saying what the jedi could and couldn't do (they meanted that GL said the Jedi couldn't morph into animals, an idea they came up with). He didn't give them the Sith history, they wrote it, just like htey came up with the Mandalorian history.

"The novelizations are EU" - wrong, the novels are considered on the same level (or just slightly below) the movies and well above any comic series.

"No source ever said Fett was not a clone, the Senate in The New Rebellion may be a changed Senate, or it may not even be the same building, and Anakin RESTORED C-3PO" Boba Fetts name is not Jaster, hes not from Concord Dawn, nor is that part his history. New Rebellion says the senate is is long room, one level, and senates sit at desks, and stand on a stage when talking - it also says its the same building that the old Republic used - GL didnt' really seem to care about that description did he? Anakin didn't restore 3PO - he found an old beat up FRAME, and scrounged together spare parts from Wattos shop to build him - EU has 3PO being just another droid from a factory.

"It describes the Rebel base as "Massassi temple" - so the Prymid People used to live in Egypt did they? I guess it would be impossable for a society to build Massassi temples. GL also didn't making the Massassi linked in anyway to Kun, the darkside or the Sith - thats all EU.

You also have to accept there is no "old Sith" or "Golden Sith" ages. The Sith are 2000 years old, if you don't like it talk to GL. I also brought you Yoda crashing the Death Star into coursant because in EU he did it, but no one would argue that is somehow fits into the time line - the same is now true about the Sith.

 

No,because it's not EU it's AU.Infinities.

 

"they meanted that GL said the Jedi couldn't morph into animals, an idea they came up with"

Well actually lucas came up with the idea in Ewoks: the battle for endor, and lucas won't let the EU writers touch that idea.

As for the senate, according to LFL Continuity expert Dan Wallace. two senates were used by the old republic. The stone and masonry one that was the oldest, and the newer one seen in tpm.

During the empire palpatine most likely converted the newer tpm senate hall into a personal lecture hall(see Tiefighter intro cutscene).

Since he was a traditionalist he started reusing the old stone and masonry senate. Which was later destroyed in New Rebellion times.
A new senate was later then built by the republic in HOT and used up to NJO times.

As for the mandalore history, that traces back to early lucas notes that were mentioned in esb screenplay liner notes, and an early movie adapation released when ESB was made. Marvel according to the letters columns in the comics themselves, had contact with lucas and he game them ideas and notes(not all the information for every detail, but enough for certain things like the mandalorians).

As for lucas anything that he can change LFL can and will apply continuity fixes to keep older sources. As long as we are in the literature forum is our right to talk about these fixes, and how the universe is expanded. You do know you are walking on thin ice right? The Gatherer, the adminstrator around these parts has given you a warning that you have failed to follow, and I wouldn't be to hasty to continue. Lest he bans you.

 

Read the making of process in the graphic novel. They say themselves that GL's only real involvement in the story was saying what the jedi could and couldn't do (they meanted that GL said the Jedi couldn't morph into animals, an idea they came up with). He didn't give them the Sith history, they wrote it, just like htey came up with the Mandalorian history.

LOL! This is too good. Look again at this quote. I'll even highlight the parts you appeard to have missed...

""The villain of Jedi Academy was planned as the spirit of a long-dead Dark Jedi. Anderson and Veitch bounced the story idea off Lucasfilm, and George Lucas suggested they turn the character into a Dark Lord of the Sith.

'We said, 'Okay, what's that?' We recieved reams of background on it, and from there developed this nasty bad guy, Exar Kun."

'To write this series, we would have to get into who exactly the Sith were', adds Veitch. 'This was territory that had been previously off-limits. But we were permitted to draw up lists of concepts and ideas and submit them to Lucas for consideration. His replies formed the basis of our plotting.' "

--- STAR WARS GALAXY MAGAZINE, Summer 1996

"The novelizations are EU" - wrong, the novels are considered on the same level (or just slightly below) the movies and well above any comic series.

In most cases, they are above most other EU sources, because Lucas has direct involvement with them along the process of their writing, they are depictions of movie events and characters, and contain small clues to future movies.

However, the official site uses novelization information under the "Expanded Universe" section of each character's entry in the databank. So, in essence, they are EU.

Boba Fetts name is not Jaster, hes not from Concord Dawn, nor is that part his history

No source ever said these things as being part of his origins.

New Rebellion says the senate is is long room, one level, and senates sit at desks, and stand on a stage when talking - it also says its the same building that the old Republic used - GL didnt' really seem to care about that description did he?

There is a whole SECTION of Coruscant that is used for the senate and Republic bureaucracy. This contains thousands of buildings, and many different types of the same thing.

The Phantom Menace also takes place a whole 49 years before The New Rebellion. Are you saying that after the changing of 2 governments, 2 massive ground battles and 4 changes in power, Galactic/Imperial City can't possibly change one bit?

Anakin didn't restore 3PO - he found an old beat up FRAME, and scrounged together spare parts from Wattos shop to build him - EU has 3PO being just another droid from a factory.

The frame he found is HOW he is a restoration of a previously-existing protocol droid. The EU said that his original activation was 80 years before TPM. Now where's the contradiction? Read Star Wars Tales # 6 and then come back.

You also have to accept there is no "old Sith" or "Golden Sith" ages. The Sith are 2000 years old, if you don't like it talk to GL. I also brought you Yoda crashing the Death Star into coursant because in EU he did it, but no one would argue that is somehow fits into the time line - the same is now true about the Sith.

I'm afraid I can't take you seriously anymore, Fenton. You're hopped up on evidence-ignoring-spice, methinks.

 

"Sorry you don't like the framework of the Sith and the Dark Jedi, but that background came directly to us from George Lucas. We're following his guidelines and building a story within the parameters he himself laid down."

Well,that's what Dark Horse comics had to say to a fan that disliked how the sith were being portrayed

Sometimes I wonder if it was ever really contradicted.Have you ever asked yourself why the Dark Jedi in TPM called themselves Sith?TotJ tells you why.

 

Leave infinities out of your arguement they are not considered Expanded Universe because they do not expand the universe, they are alternate to the star wars universe, as by LFL policy. Lfl policy is AU does not = EU.

AU is infinities, and EU is expanded universe, as put forth by lfl policies.

 

I guess sometimes your right
and sometimes your...
well, Fenton!

 

fenton , you sound like you're 12 and act as that of a troll. Go to the Haters' Community in the Expanded Universe Community to talk about your disgust for the EU, don't come into the Lit. forum and start bashing it.

A couple good tips: Work on your debating skills. You will never get any respect nor will your views be respected if cannot respect others and their beliefs as well, take a look a Bib for example. And finally, don't come into the Lit. forum and bash EU, that's what the Haters' Community is for.

 

And Fenton, never forget to post evidence to your claims and theories, nor dispute obvious evidence that others provide.

 

I have read interviews with just about every EU writer, and with the exception of Zahn, and the writers of movie novelization, none have ever mentioned GL giving them anything to work with. Instead they always talk about representives from LFL. The making of section the TotJ graphic novel says they created serveral Jedi powers (including the animal morphing) which was shot down by GL - and that was the extent of his involvement. You keep going on and on about Kun, and they may have been given the word "Sith" to use to explain Kun - but you never get a history of hte Sith in Jedi Acadmey, that came in TofJ, and they didn't work with GL to form that history, if you don't believe me buy the graphic novel. If in AotC Nu names all the Jedi who have left he order, and she doesn't mention him (which I doubt she will) then he never existed.

I like EU as much as the next guy - however GL is the end authority on SW and he has changed a lot of it with the PT - if you guys can't accept that then thats your problem.

As for the Yoda infinites stuff - I meantion that because that is where the Sith race now belongs - it has no affect on the SW universe anymore, GL re-wrote t he Sith history how he wanted it, and they don't figure into it, as you will see with AotC (although even after it you will just say "they only talking about the "New Siths" history). It has been said serveral times on the Starwars website taht GL doesn't care about EU, and hes not going to be limited by it - as he has proven. If Gl doesn't touch on a topic then EU explanations are fine. I don't think were ever going to see Han met Chewie on film, so the explain that Han freed him from the Imperials is fine, unless GL wanted to change it, in which case he would.

 

All that stuff I posted and still he shows his lack of vision. Fenton, when you say SITH, you're refering to the last SITH ORDER. Like it or not the SITH ORDER stole teachings and such from the Sith race and corrupted it. Not all Dark JEDI are SITH and that's that. Any further discussion you have on the subject should be posted in the movies section because in the EU they exist, point blank. You can't dispute it. You can't dispute the fact there was a Sith race prior to the Sith Order. It's indesputable. So get over it. Read all the books and you'll open yourself up to a wider much more gratifying star wars universe. Otherwise, go to the movie forums, and JUST watch the movies over and over and never read a SW EU novel, because in your mindset, none of it would be true, or CANON. So just give up your bashing here and leave us to our much wider vision.

 

Lets get this back on topic.


Ok I was wondering just to make sure a bit I know this has been asked doozes of times but.

How is Darth Vader a Sith Lord?

Different between a "Sith Lord" and a "Dark Jedi" Dark Jedi are just fallen Jedi that turn to the Dark Side .

Sith Lords take training and are a Darksider user from the begining.

Now a Dark Jedi can become a Sith Lord if they trained but I think I see how Darth Vader is a Sith Lord.

1) He was takened over spirital by the Dark Side therefore he is a Sith Lord

2) He did training for 20 years to become a Sith Lord and thats how he is one.

Basically I know Darth Vader is a
"Dark Lord of Sith" but I want to know how he is without being a "Dark Jedi" also.

Can you explain?








I think Vader was a dark Jedi first. Then After studying the ways of the Sith he became a Sith Lord. I think someone has to be a Dark Jedi first. However I can see how a light Jedi who studies or reads the Sith Teachings could be dragged or tricked into turning to the dark side.

 

Doright is...well, right. However, not all Sith are Dark Jedi, IMO.

If someone starts their life, and is trained most of their life, under the way of the Sith, such as Darth Maul, they were always Sith.

Someone like Anakin, who's trained as a Jedi, and THEN turns to the dark side, would be a Dark Jedi. Once he fully joins Palpatine and continues training under him, then he would be a Sith, and that would overrule his title of Dark Jedi.

I have read interviews with just about every EU writer, and with the exception of Zahn, and the writers of movie novelization, none have ever mentioned GL giving them anything to work with.

In most cases, all Lucas does is read over an outline and approve or disprove it. But with some, such as James Luceno and Alan Dean Foster, he has worked directly with them, asking for things to be added and changed in their novels of Splinter of the Mind's Eye, The Approaching Storm and Cloak of Deception. With the new PT novels, he gave them the freaking Episode II script to work with.

Not even the ACTORS of these movies have seen the full scripts.

So, you are wrong there.

The making of section the TotJ graphic novel says they created serveral Jedi powers (including the animal morphing) which was shot down by GL - and that was the extent of his involvement.

You keep basing your information on 2 sources - the Tales of the Jedi TPB and the TPM novelization.

Meanwhile, we're providing proof from the official site, magazines and for in-universe stuff, the actual guides, such as the Essential Chronology which PROVES it all fits and MERGES the old Sith with the new Sith reinstituted by Darth Bane.

Dood, start buying more books and then you can actually argue against any problems you see.

You keep going on and on about Kun, and they may have been given the word "Sith" to use to explain Kun - but you never get a history of hte Sith in Jedi Acadmey, that came in TofJ, and they didn't work with GL to form that history, if you don't believe me buy the graphic novel.

If you want the full history of the Sith, buy the book I mention above. It's at Amazon.com. It's written by Kevin J. Anderson and Dan Wallace.

If in AotC Nu names all the Jedi who have left he order, and she doesn't mention him (which I doubt she will) then he never existed.

She doesn't. I've seen the dialogue. So oh well.

I like EU as much as the next guy - however GL is the end authority on SW and he has changed a lot of it with the PT - if you guys can't accept that then thats your problem.

Name everything he changed.

I only know of a handful of things, and most have been explained or fixed. The only two things left are why there's Mon Calamari and Quarren around in the galaxy, including the Senate, before ANH, and the stuff with Greedo.

Nothing else is really changed. The previously-existing EU fit like a glove around TPM with nearly everything.

As for the Yoda infinites stuff - I meantion that because that is where the Sith race now belongs - it has no affect on the SW universe anymore, GL re-wrote t he Sith history how he wanted it

If that's all you want to see, then leave here. Now.

and they don't figure into it, as you will see with AotC (although even after it you will just say "they only talking about the "New Siths" history).

If anyone actually believes Fenton with this crap, I don't know what he's talking about. I keep up on all spoilers and dialogue for AotC, and nothing is contradicted, or even remotedly hinted at being contradicted in 5 months.

Unless he's seen Christopher Walken in the fan trailer and thinks he's Bane.

It has been said serveral times on the Starwars website taht GL doesn't care about EU

Can I have a link to this quote?

If Gl doesn't touch on a topic then EU explanations are fine.

He doesn't touch on 95% of this universe.

 

So then the question is Did Vader turn before Sidious gets his hooks into him or did Sidious have a hand in turning him?

It will be interesting to find out.




Lets just ignore ignorant wet dreams and discus The topic of Vader/Anakin.

 

i have one question for everyone...

i am personally a huge fan of the EU and cqannot stand EU canonists.


dooes anyone have any idea what the ideas and principles of the sith are? i am talking about the race...


because as sturm said he thinks a force user can be a sith and not dark side... i agree with this statement... from the little knowledge i know about the sith i dont see how they are evil like dark jedi...

 

I think Ulic Qel-Droma thought he could stay good...But look where that got him.

I think some may have been good in the early race of Sith people, but they were a very violent warrior culture, so I doubt it.

As for Dark Jedi or Sith Lords, I think that the natural methods of training, and the powers they learn ( such as Telekinetic Kill, Force Lightning, Force Choke etc. ) kind of rule out and dispell any goodness within themselves. It's not aways the powers they learn, but how they use them and what their intent is, however.

 

"The Sith are 2000 years old, if you don't like it talk to GL."

Why don't YOU try to talk to him ? We both have no way to do it, so you really can't say that.

I haven't followed AotC spoilers in details, but from what I understood, Nu does mention the Jedi who left the order and caused the current situation at the time of the movie. WHat'd be the use of mentionning a Sith Lord who died 4000 years ago, and who has nothing to do with the plot ? Plus, the story of Exar Kun must be a story every Padawan learns about in the early years of training - so Obi-Wan'd surely know it by heart, no need to mention it again -.

----------

Back to topic : well, one becomes a Dark Jedi when you let anger and hatred dictate your actions. You can slip to anger and hatred, but if you calm yourself shortly after that, then you do not become a Dark Jedi, IMO. Now the question : was Sidious instrumental in Anakin's turning ? Well... We'll all have to see the movies to be sure of anything, but I'd say Anakin has the potential, he slips a lot (AotC, lots of EU sources), and Sidious makes the final push that makes him turn to the Dark Side... But as I said, only the movies, once released, can prove anything.

 

The Sith Order has be formed and re-formed several times, as is said on the first page of "Jedi Vs. Sith". The "2000 years ago" Sith can be considered simply another re-formation. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but this is how things went:

25,000 years BEFORE the BATTLE of Yavin - The Great Scism.Thousands of Dark Jedi leave the order and find the Sith race, intermingle, and become one.
5,000 BBY - The Sith Empire is destroyed.
4,000 BBY - The Sith Brotherhood is formed by disillusioned Jedi Exar Kun, but is short lived, and soon disolved.
2,000 BBY - A reformed Sith Brotherhood is formed by a Rogue Jedi Knight and 50 followers
1,000 BBY - After 1,000 years of turmoil within their ranks, the Sith eventually destory each other at the Battle of Ruusan in an attempt to destroy the Jedi forces on Ruusan. The 2nd Sith Brotherhood is defeated.

Then we have Bane which plunges the order into secrecy and the "Two rule" comes into play.

20 BBY - The New Order if formed by Supreme Chancellor Palpatine who is revealed to be the Sith Lord Darth Sidious.
4 ABY - Palpatine and his apprentice Darth Vader are destoryed. An Emperor's Hand known as the Dark Lady Lumiya who again plunges the order into secrecy, and is unheard of since.

Sure, GL has his Sith come into play 2,000 BBY, but it still fits in with the continuity. The Sith have risen more then once, and they will again.

____________________

But on topic.

I always invision Anakin as crossing the line at the end of Episode 2. I wont spoil anyone, but it's suttle and starts him down the road.

I then invision a confrontation much like the RoTJ confrontation, in which Anakin duels Palpy's new apprentice (*****), and "strikes him down, taking his place at Palpy's side".

So in other words, it's a slow process, but he will make the jump to Sith Lord at once, and not go Dark Jedi. (Just my Opinion)

 

Ok well thats a good opinion maybe your right.

Usally Sith are trained at the start I think Anakin started over when he went into the DS so therefore he was always a Sith Lord and never a Dark Jedi. That makes since.

Jedi----Turning point-Dark Lord of Sith