Darth Vader's New Look (Rebels)

Not really no. Not everyone is required to share the same tastes Fett.

 

I frankly didn't think any of the unbolded parts of your sentence did anything to mitigate the meaning behind what I DID bold.

Hey, here's a radical thought: maybe you shouldn't label ANYONE as one-dimensional, how 'bout that? And certainly not for refusing to agree with you.

How is it NOT that? I see the insinuation all over your words. I don't HAVE to see those words literally given to me by you to get that that was your meaning. When you insist for days on end that you alone have the right ideas about anything having to do with Star Wars, and imply that those who don't agree with you are wrong and ignorant, that's hubris. That's arrogance. If the shoe fits...

 

I think this is right at the heart of where we disagree Darth Saxman, and if so I do acknowledge that perhaps I haven't been entirely clear. I personally think that the story decisions and the artistic choices made by whoever is in charge of bridging the gap (in this case it just so happens to be Filoni) are not intrinsically linked. If you told the story in the driest most basic terms, Rebels is not (as yet) a direct set up to the situation of the films. It's one Rebel cell in the early years of the organisation, and that's all it is. It's set against the same basic background but it is a fundamentally different and independent story set in the same universe, with a few characters who are in both.

An episodic cartoon is not the same as a full length theatrical piece. The style, conventions and trappings of the stories are fundamentally different. A cartoon has 22 minutes to tell it's story each week; a film can have several hours. A cartoon's characters are far more likely to be exaggerated and basic than a full length film's because they don't have the luxury of time to shade in little details and delicate hints each week. Rebels and TCW alike do NOT mesh precisely with the films, and in particular not with the OT - because they are not supposed to. They have to be able to stand alone on their own merits - and what is meritous to a film is not always the same in a cartoon, or vice versa. Filoni has never suggested that the Rebels Vader design is 'better' than the films', or that it should be changed; he has simply looked at the tone and style of Rebels as a project and chosen a design he thinks suits the show - and in this case I think he is correct (which I do not always, just for example I really despise noodle-Wookies.) Ziro The Hutt, to use one example, never appeared in the films, and was never going to - he wasn't supposed to mesh with the films. Sabine is not meant to be representative of all Mandalorians. She is not meant to say anything about the character of Boba or Jango Fett. The pink armour is about her the individual character (who happens to be a Mandalorian.)

Rebels is simply set in a period we have no prior reference to, as in fact was TCW on it's first release - the films only alluded to the 'missing years' in both instances. It is by it's nature something new, something different to what we have already seen. The galaxy of Rebels is not the same setting as the galaxy of the OT because it changes and evolves over time. Judging the show simply by comparison to the films is making a comparison that just does not hold up. Judging the show on it's own merits, as a story in it's own right, I feel that Filoni has got more right than wrong and as such is entitled to continue making those choices.

This debate is derailed by parties from both sides trying to make it a case of one opinion being RIGHT and another WRONG (which is which depends entirely on perspective.) That Vader's design is OBJECTIVELY correct or incorrect... when it is in fact neither. It's a design, it is a piece of art and as such entirely in the eye of the beholder as to it's merits. Drawing conclusions on anyone's competence and ability as a show producer on such inherently subjective means is an argument that cannot BE won, by anyone.

 

Frankly, I feel that some are trying to hijack / force this thread off-course with the intent of it being locked.

It would be easier for this thread to stay on-topic if the original thread on the critical analysis of Filoni's contributions to Star Wars canon hadn't been locked last week (and if it were re-opened for resumption of discussion). There is plenty being hit on in the latter pages of this thread that fit very well under that thread's main topic.

So from your POV, criticism against Filoni is unwarranted as long as people continue to watch the show in enough #s to deem it the nebuolous term "successful"?

New material being added to Star Wars canon (like a scowly Vader mask, among other things) doesn't need protection and critiquing as long as the show is successful?

What? As is consistently happening in this thread, you project false points of view on me that my posts just do not convey in any way, shape or form.

You really think it is not one-dimensional / narrow-minded to refuse to entertain the idea that other artists and leaders could put out a better product than Filoni? How is that not narrow-minded?

 

[merging with last post]

 

I really wish there was a face palm Emticon

 

MAYBE another team could put out a product that blows Rebels clean out of the water in every way. MAYBE another team would create a stream of televisual sewage that makes Rebels look like Gargoyles. We just don't know. The most likely eventuality by far (based on the fact that it's happened with pretty much every single Star Wars product ever - including the OT) is that whoever is in charge, be it Filoni, Greg Weisman or heck Parker & Stone of South Park fame or any other creator you care to name, the show they would produce would have those who like it, and those who don't... exactly like we are now. Filoni gets some calls right, some wrong - we can go around over and over as to which is which. But there is no reason to call for him to be replaced on the rather nebulous proposal that someone else MIGHT do objectively better.

 

"Criticism" is one thing. Continuous, over-the-top re-posting to the effect that Filoni and all associated with him are "lazy", "disrespectful" etc and need to be ex-communicated from the ranks of fandom for the cardinal sin of bad/wrongfun is quite another thing.

We're not the ones who keep insisting that every little different detail thing or art style choice is somehow altering canon. The different types of ships/etc that are deliberately introduced that have never been seen before are "adding to canon", because they are intended to do so.

Vader having a slightly different depiction is just art-style, unless you can produce and cite a source for a statement that it is intended to be an addition to the canon.

Pink Mando armor in and of itself is not changing anything in canon, because there is no evidence that Mando armor cannot be pink to begin with. In the pre-Disney EU canon, it was disclosed that Mandos would wear colors that indicated ideas that they felt particularly strongly about. Sabine places a great deal of worth on her artistic nature and style, and her armor color reflects that choice. So, in fact, Sabine's pink armor honors canon by conforming to what was previously said about how Mandos choose armor colors.

Nice Tarkin channel...

 

Why not? If you are unhappy with something, it is only natural to wish for change.

 

When a Star Wars show is dubbed as canon, then it automatically needs to mesh extremely well with the movies, despite the fact that it is a TV show. The quality needs to strive to be as high, the storylines and characters can't be too drastically outlandish, unoriginal or caricature-ized in order for it to stay true to the source material.

Filoni has gotten his chance on two shows, spanning 8 years, and no one else has. Is that fair or wise for the future of Star Wars, when his team is granted sole power over star wars TV canon for 8 years? Have we gotten anywhere near the *consistent* quality of Batman TAS, Xmen, and more recently Avatar and Legend of Korra? No? Then why can't we do better? Star Wars deserves better for its main canon storyline series.

"That Vader's design is OBJECTIVELY correct or incorrect... when it is in fact neither" ---- the question isn't whether scowly Vader is the right or wrong look. It is whether it was wise for Filoni to choose scowly caricature Vader when he is privileged with having the ONLY show on TV, paving new canon, and viewers have no other more conventional animated or live-action Vader canon TV stories to turn to. As I said, sure some will like it, some won't --- let's so 30% won't, 70% will (even though that is probably VERY generous). Probably 99.0% of fans would love a traditional non-scowly Vader (which doesn't need to be photorealistic ---- just accurate and true to the original look without turning him into a caricature). So IMO, the wise, respesctful and responsible decision would have been going with the traditional look.

 

Fine, so far as that goes.

When certain posters go the extra step of not just saying they're unhappy, but insisting that their unhappiness is the objectively correct position to take, and that those not agreeing are bad/wrongfans who meekly accept having garbage rammed down their throat, etc, that's what has people's backs up.

Which Rebels does quite nicely, thank you. CW was a fine extension of the PT and fit the mood of that time period: mostly serious, at times downright grim, what with the dying of the Republic and the gathering strength of the Dark Side. Plots within plots and no matter what the heroes did, they generally played into Sidious' hands regardless.

Rebels is a fine intro/extension to the OT, and fits the mood of its time: the Empire is evil and omni-present, looming over the galaxy like a dark cloud. But a small band of heroes, led by a figure out of legend, decides not to give in to despair and resolves to do what it can to bring Light back to those for whom is was extinguished so very long ago.

And it does it with a great deal of elan, just as the OT did. As much as I loved CW, I literally broke down in tears the first dozen or two times I watched this (sorry about the slight audio misalignment, it was the best clip of this I could find):

If the above doesn't represent the quintessential essence of Star Wars, nothing does.

8 years of successful shows stuffed full of great moments like the above that are generally well received by the majority of the fanbase? I can't think of much better.

 

Oh, yes, here we go with THAT old chestnut: melodramatic martyrdom, and a conspiracy to muzzle his opinions. No day here on the boards would be complete without THAT lame tactic...

I would also like to side with Ken Snowmane on this: for me, Saxman, this has nothing to do with your opinion. It has everything to do with your approach. Had you just stuck with the statement that you don't personally prefer the way Rebels did Vader's mask, you'd have been fine. It wasn't, and isn't, an opinion that everyone shares, but it would have been considered valid in and of itself.

But the moment you attach that opinion to your own sense of knowing what is right and wrong for the Saga, and begin, A, to clamor for people to be fired for an offense so miniscule, compared to others we've seen, that is considered an offense only in your eyes (because I don't see many others wanting Filoni to be fired even if they DO dislike Vader's mask), and B, inferring that those who do NOT share your opinion are either blind, uncaring, unintelligent, or whatever adjective you choose to use, then no, I am under no obligation whatsoever to consider my attitude as one-dimensional OR narrow-minded. What's narrow-minded is to raise such a damned stink over an issue as small as a MASK, and one that exists only in pixels at that.

 

The STORY of Rebels thus far actually does mesh perfectly well with the main canon however. The Rebellion is a highly motivated but largely ineffectual collection of cells with no appreciable military successes against the Empire thus far (one Star Destroyer destroyed out of five around a single planet is not going to have Palpatine up in a cold sweat at night.) Tarkin is a rising star in the Imperial Court, the Emperor's attack dog who is doing a pretty impressive job of scaring the beejezus out of a few belligerent outer rim planets and keeping them in line. Vader (and his agents, the Inquisitors) are busily hunting down any Jedi they hear are still running around the galaxy. Meanwhile Bail Organa and the other Rebel founders are trying to build up a real power base to make the Rebellion a viable alternative government - but thus far are forced to keep to the shadows or get crushed beneath the Imperial jackboot (there was not even an attempt to fight in the season one finale - it was a hit and run attempt by a trusted associate, not even Bail himself.) Lando Calrissian is a two-bit huckster conman and gambler with oodles of charm and an eye for the ladies, but not yet governor of anywhere.

So it meshes perfectly well. The art does not. Because it's not trying to, nor should it. It's a cartoon, by it's nature it's unlike the films.

 

The call for a new team and new leader beyond Filoni goes way beyond the new Vader mask decision. The mods locked the thread that dealt with that discussion (and I hope that it is re-opened), so some of the other reasons crept into this thread. Other artwork decisions did as well, such as Aladdin Ezra.

Again, my main question isn't whether scowly Vader is the right or wrong look. It is whether it was wise for Filoni to choose scowly caricature Vader when he is privileged with having the ONLY show on TV, paving new canon, and viewers have no other more conventional animated or live-action Vader canon TV stories to turn to. IMO, it is one in a long string of decisions by Filoni to be irresponsible with his privilege of having the only canon Star Wars TV show, even if it is a small decision, and he needs to be called out for it, along with all of the other irresponsible decisions such as Aladdin Ezra.

 

Again with the "they closed my old thread!!!" song and dance. I'm afraid that happens all the time; it's nothing special or unique to you. But you're the first person I've seen here in a LONG time that has taken it so seriously and personally. And I can't remember ANYONE who kept going on about it in other threads in quite the way you have.

You know what? Just for the sake of argument, let's entertain this notion for just one minute. To you, what would "calling out Filoni's irresponsible decisions" look like? What form does a calling-out take in your eyes? Is it a letter-writing or email campaign? Is it a demonstration in front of the Lucasfilm offices? Is it something more radical that that, in which case we're probably talking something that's illegal? And by the way, that question begs for another one: what would constitute success in your eyes? What would a victory by your side look like to you? Should Filoni get on TV or online and profusely apologize in front of a camera, and then spend the money to completely redo the Vader mask in every scene he's in (among other things, since you say you have more than just that one gripe; perhaps you want them to redesign and redo Ezra too?) and then reissue the episodes all over again? And should he then just fall on his sword for you and step down from his position by way of apology? And if that is what victory looks like to you, do you really, seriously, believe that's what's going to happen?

 

Not just the story, but the story-telling style and tone.

Watch that clip above and tell me that doesn't ooze Star Wars from it's very pores...

 

There is NOTHING 'irresponsible' about the choices Filoni has made. Nothing whatsoever. His only obligation is to try and create what he honestly believes will be the best show he can produce, and has chosen accordingly. Making Vader look precisely like the films (when absolutely nothing else in the cartoon looks precisely like the films) isn't a more morally correct, 'responsible' choice. It's one that suits the tone that he thinks is best... and you do not.

 

Todd the Jedi since when did people type correctly on the Internet.

 

Weird Al's got a couple of points. *ducks*

 

To try and resurrect this thread and get it back on track, an interesting link has been posted on another thread which is definitely relevant to this discussion. Unfortunately I can't get the actual images to come up for some reason but can provide the link: http://starwarshelmets.com/Original-Darth-Vader-Helmets.htm. Anyone debating the scowly Vader look I would recommend checking it out: ANH Vader definitely has more of a pointy, angry brow-line compared to the later versions, but being an OT-canon design does suggest that a scowling look for Vader is not something that Filoni and co. pulled out of their backsides and has never been seen before - especially considering that unless he hops into a TARDIS off-screen, Rebels-Vader is going to look a lot more like his ANH version than the later ones if we want him to 'mesh' properly...

Now I concede that even in ANH the scowl is not totally as prominent as in the Rebels design, though it's hardly a massive difference and in large part due to the nature of a cartoon being, well, cartoony. But the fact that ''angry eyes'' Vader is also a canonical OT look means that trying to decry the Rebels design on that basis seems to have run it's course as an argument, frankly.

 

jakobitis89
I was looking that over earlier. It helped me figure out why the helmet looked worse in the ESB and ROTJ. In ANH the part of the helmet that covers the bridge of the nose is sharper, more severe. It helps give Vader an angry look... like he's got angry-looking eyebrows. Whereas in ESB and ROTJ it's less severe, and the rim of the helmet above Vader's eyes make him look more surprised than angry. It's a bit goofy at times.

The anger in the McQuarrie drawings and the Rebels design is why I think I like them.

I did like that one photo of Vader's helmet all hanging at an angle, like he had been out partying hard with his stormies and just peeled himself off someone's basement couch.

 

And yet Vader's helmet was made to display different emotions depending on the scene, like his confusion when his TIE-Fighter tumbled around. He was not "perpetually scowling". I am not sure if it is possible to do the same with the rebels design, which is a design flaw to me.

 

Why on earth wouldn't it be? In the ANH design, the 'standard' look had the prominent pointy brow, the 'scowl' that caused all this hassle. But through body language, lighting, perspective, angles... they managed to get all sorts of emotions out of an unmoving helmet. I don't see why they can't use the exact same techniques to replicate that. It's really not that hard to do.