Darth Vader's New Look (Rebels)

NO style has been 'universally' praised and loved. Ever. So don't even try going down that road. And it's not exaggerated because it's owned by Disney. It's exaggerated because it's a cartoon - in this instance one produced by Disney and going out on a Disney channel so yeah there are probably going to be certain stylistic preferences based on that, but that's the nature of the beast that is corporate work, which this is - and would be under any creator or company. The specific preferences would be different but there would be preferences of one sort or another.

You specifically asked me, do I THINK that this is the best possible art style. I said yes I do think that. It is my opinion. This is not a hard point to grasp. You asked me a question and I answered it. I didn't just start telling you out of nowhere that this IS the best style so you have to deal with it, I responded to your question with my honestly held opinion that this is the best style FOR THIS SHOW. I am not talking about 'every single Star Wars animated show under Disney's ownership' I am talking about this one show, only.

 

Yes, and I asked you to justify it, and you have proceeded to overreact, claim that I'm not hearing you and in general just be hostile in tone.

And I'll ask again why you think this style is the best possible choice for the single, sole show that we have at this point to establish new canon story and characters for the crucial time period between Episodes III and IV. I've told you the reasons why I don't, and I'm waiting to hear the reasons why you do.

 

Why is some sort of formal justification required?

Is it not enough to look at the art and say: "Yeah, I like that one." ?

 

There's a difference between "I like that" and "I like that and also believe it is the best possible choice"

 

You asked me to justify it on the basis that when you saw the more realistic-looking comic, YOU were instantly drawn back into 'proper' Star Wars, so how could I enjoy the cartoony look of the show. Which is a false argument and one I can't actually answer because it's not a view I ever put forward. I DON'T think the cartoony style is the best thing ever for all Star Wars stories. I don't think it would have worked for the Genndy Tartakovsky series, for example. But I really enjoy Rebels, the series. It feels Star Wars to me. I see the show and I feel like I am watching classic Star Wars stories in the Galaxy Far Far Away. Which is the best result I could expect from any EU material... therefore FOR ME... it is the best possible choice.

Not everyone likes what I do. Not everyone likes what you do. Is this objectively and factually the Best Possible Choice? Of course it isn't. Would making the show look exactly like the movies be objectively and factually the Best Possible Choice? No it wouldn't. Because not everyone likes the same things. For me this is the best possible look because I get to watch a Star Wars show I enjoy that expands the story and gives me characters I invest in. That's never going to make it good to you, but you must have worked that out for yourself by now. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to what anyone likes. If I feel this is the best it could be, then to me it IS the best. If you feel it could be better, to you it's NOT the best. But neither of us are correct, because it's not a factual debate. It's all about opinion.

Furthermore... there is a vast difference between this is not the 'BEST EVER' and 'awful.' There are things that could be improved about the show, I know that. I am not claiming it's perfect, I never did. I am going to repeat a point I made earlier and hope that this time it's actually understood: I really don't care if you do or do not like the show. I don't care if you think it's good or bad. I watch it because I DO enjoy it, and this thread proves that there are others who feel the same - and we're the ones the show is made for. People who like it, and enjoy it. If you aren't one of those people... that's not my problem.

 

"Best possible choice" is a completely subjective criteria. What is it you are trying to prove exactly?

Also, "Best possible choice" based on what?

With no additional criteria to consider, I happen to think that Lucas could have done a much better job with the Vader design costume in the OT, but it still worked just fine for the movies. My justification is my opinion. Nothing more is necessary.

 

Ok, I definitely call BS on this!

Produce the quote!

 

So somehow because you get a Star Wars show that expands the story and gives you characters to invest in, the art style for the show is also the best possible?

For a third time, why do you think this style (a Disney-fied, Mickey-Mouse exaggerated look) is the best possible choice for the single, sole show that we have at this point to establish new canon story and characters for the crucial time period between Episodes III and IV?

You seem to be unable to answer this question beyond the selfish "Because I like it and that's what matters" answer.

Wow, and I am being accused of being arrogant?

 

My justification: it fits with the art well and is pleasing to my artistic sense. That's why it's the best possible choice.

So, you now have your Justification. Where do we go from here?

 

No... I very specifically said it is the best FOR ME. Because it is. What is the best for one person isn't always the best for another. Which is the best character in Star Wars? Which is the best film? It's totally subjective. I can't prove that it is the best possible for everyone, nor am I trying to - because there is no such thing. In my own opinion, yes this IS the best option for this show, taken as it's own story and told it's own way. But I can't 'prove' it because there is no proof - it's my opinion and how I feel, that's all.

And you ARE being arrogant dude, just as much as I may be. You want a show that YOU would enjoy more. That means changing the show that I and others are enjoying right now as it is to suit you better. Filoni isn't trying to please every single fan. He's trying to produce a show enjoyed by enough people that he keeps his job. And whether you or I or anyone else here is one of those people is not his concern.

 

So OD, you too are claiming this art style as the "best possible choice"?

Let's see your justification.................."it fits with the art well"

What? It itself is the art that we are talking about. Claiming that the art style is the best possible because it fits well with the art makes is not rational justification.


"and is pleasing to my artistic sense"

This is the same selfish "Because I like it and that's what matters" answer that Jakobitis is putting forward, which again is not a rational justification to the claim "best possible choice".

 

That seems to be a pretty low bar.

I am wondering if it would be so bad to hand the reins to someone else. That wouldn't mean that Filoni is fired, mind you, only that he would switch to another position like head of animation or something similar (I don't know exactly how this is structured). Lets say another person heads rebels for one season? We (and LFL and Disney) could compare who is more suited in the role.

 

You seem to be content with asking and concluding "What is best for me? Do I enjoy it? Yes? Well then it is the best that could possibly be done".

I am going deeper and less selfishly (though it is for my selfish love of Star Wars as a whole, especially its roots and canon storyline before Rebels) to ask "What is best for series as a whole? What is best for Star Wars canon? Is this the best possible choice for the new Star Wars canon to have it mesh well with the Star Wars canon that preceded it?" I conclude no, and give my reasons. And I am pressing you on here that claim "yes, it is the best", to justify that beyond just your own selfish interests in enjoying the show as standalone entertainment. The bolded part of your post is wrong --- it is not its own story. It is the first new Star Wars canon between Episodes III and IV beyond the Vader/Tarkin books. Thus, IMO it is NOT the best art style to select if it ends up yielding drastically exaggerated character profiles, like Aladdin lookalikes, emaciated Wookies and perpetually-scowling Vaders, since those do not mesh well with existing Star Wars canon. I bring up the art style of Vader 2015 as an example of a style that very much does mesh well.

 

And I am saying that for me, the degree to which this one show's art does or does not mesh with another art style is NOT indicative of it's own quality taken objectively. So please... give us a rational justification to the claim ''best possible choice.'' Provide us a yardstick with which to measure objective quality. Give me something to work with where I don't have to keep repeating that I FEEL it's the best is not me saying it is FACTUALLY the best. Because unless I know what being the 'best' actually is how am I meant to prove it?

You say it doesn't mesh, it can't be best... but whether it meshes or not is just your personal preference as much as me saying 'this is exactly what I like' is mine.

 

These don't look exactly the same:




But does it really matter if Rebels looks slightly different? A stormtrooper's still a stormtrooper, and Vader's still Vader. Them looking a tiny bit different isn't going to affect the story one bit.

Although the stormtroopers really are idiots in Rebels.

 

You're asking for a "rational" justification for my artistic preferences? There's nothing rational about liking some art but not others. It's a completely subjective decision made on an individual basis.

Are you honestly telling me that my own opinion on the art is "selfish"? GTFO

It's not selfish at all. I am not the one demanding that they change Vader's design. You are. You are the one stoking a fire to try and get Filoni removed. Regardless of what the fan base actually wants.

You asked for people's opinion and you got their opinions. And then you whine like a child when you don't get the answer you want.

I gave you my justification. I'm sorry you don't like it, but you need to suck it up. Walk it off. Rub some dirt on it or something.

 

Again, he's casting himself as some kind of an enlightened individual who knows more than us peons. He's selfless, but we're concerned only about our own selfless interests. He cares about the greater canon and we don't. He goes deeper and we don't. YAWN.

 

Vader's mask didn't bear a perpetual scowl in Episodes III - VI. Wookies never looked emaiated in Episodes III - VI. Those are examples of how the art style selected do not mesh well and, thus, should not be claimed to be "the best possible choice" for the lone animated canon Star Wars show bridging Episodes III and IV.

Again, I would have much less concern if Rebels was Legends and not Canon, and would actually really love it if that were the case. I'd be able to enjoy the show in its own right instead of trying to hold it up to the standard levels of the OT and PT in terms of quality and artistic consistency.

darskpine10 Yes, the stormtroopers have an exaggerated frowny look as well. I noticed it but it wasn't as bothersome as Vader's exaggerated, one-dimensional look because Stormtroopers are general soldier pawns and are not THE central character for the entire Star Wars saga, as Vader is.

 

I am going to have to ask Todd the Jedi or another mod to step in here because this looks very much to me like it's turned into outright trolling sadly. I am repeatedly stating that this is the best for me and it's my own opinion and the replies keep coming back about how it can be the best if another poster DOESN'T like what I do. It's literally an unwinnable argument made to wind people up, or so it seems. But I could be wrong and it's not my position to make that call so can someone who can please take over? I would rather not get the thread locked completely when some people DO want a genuine debate.

 

OD --- yet again, as you have constantly done in this thread, you follow up replies to me by skewing and (intentionally?) misinterpreting my words in the hopes that it will get overlooked and that you will gain some sort of superiority in the discussion.

let's see......

No, not rational justification for your artistic preferences. I was specifically stating that these aren't your artistic preferences that are on trial here. The question was:

Why do you think this style (a Disney-fied, Mickey-Mouse exaggerated look) is the best possible choice for the single, sole show that we have at this point to establish new canon story and characters for the crucial time period between Episodes III and IV?

Answering "because it is my artistic preference" is not a rational answer.

See above. Answer the question that I asked with the answer "Because I like it" is indeed selfish. Your own opinion on the art is not selfish, but claiming that the art style is the best possible choice for the single, sole show that we have at this point to establish new canon story and characters for the crucial time period between Episodes III and IV just because it satisfies your own personal artistic taste IS selfish.

 

I wonder if the art style was 'hyper-realistic' and the story was exactly the same, whether people would start saying that the art style should reflect the individual story, not other stories.

 

Saying it definitely is NOT the best because it does NOT satisfy your personal artistic tastes is equally selfish. Just sayin'.

 

I would hope that any mod or random lurker reading these posts would see that it is YOU who is off-track here and potentially trolling ME. And on a personal note, I'm disappointed that you would resort to attempts to get this thread locked and/or me banned.

The bolded section above and your latest post is not what I am saying at all. I'll repost:

" You seem to be content with asking and concluding "What is best for me? Do I enjoy it? Yes? Well then it is the best that could possibly be done".

I am going deeper and less selfishly (though it is for my selfish love of Star Wars as a whole, especially its roots and canon storyline before Rebels) to ask "What is best for series as a whole? What is best for Star Wars canon? Is this the best possible choice for the new Star Wars canon to have it mesh well with the Star Wars canon that preceded it?" I conclude no, and give my reasons. And I am pressing you on here that claim "yes, it is the best", to justify that beyond just your own selfish interests in enjoying the show as standalone entertainment."

Again, hyper-realistic is not necessarily needed either. No one is asking for hyper-realistic, even though it would look pretty cool (google the term and look up what it really looks like..........Vader 2015 is not hyper-realistic, yet is far less exaggerated and "Disney-fied" in look).

 

You are concluding that what YOU would like would be better for ''Star Wars as a whole'' than what I like. I am NOT making the counter claim that this is the best thing for everybody. I specifically state that I personally enjoy the show and as such it is (in my opinion) the best choice... FOR ME. I acknowledge that yes that is simply my own personal taste. What I like isn't necessarily better for Star Wars as a whole. The difference is? I'm not pretending that it is. I am not arguing that I FEEL this is the best show FOR ME. But that's the extent of it. I am not saying you should enjoy it, or that you're wrong not to. I am just saying that Filoni clearly is never going to appeal to both of us. It just so happens that he IS appealing to me, in this one instance.

 

Bottom line? You won't like it, I'm sure...but here goes:

Because it is the style that allowed the show to be made!

It was cheaper to animate than CW and that helped Disney commit to producing the show. Would a hyper-cinematic style like Bioware's or even the more detailed by still stylized CW style be more favorable with some audiences? Probably. But then the profit/loss statements would have been insufficient for Disney to proceed.

I'll take "cartoony" Star Wars that in terms of story and characters feels like Star Wars nontheless over not having more Star Wars.

Does that answer your question?

2015 Vader is not "cartoon look". It is "cinematic look", which is generally defined as striving to replicate the look and feel of a live-action project.

"Cartoon look" would be Rebels, or even Clone Wars. "Anime look" would be the CW webisode series. "Hyper-realistic" would be something akin to the Bioware shorts.

It sounds to me much like Dead Poets Society:



Obviously Mr Saxman is a member of the J. Evans Pritchard school of art appreciation.

No. Almost to that point myself.

A "Disney show" with lots of stormtrooper deaths, including one being murdered by his commanding officer. More character deaths on the way. Officers getting their heads chopped off for incompetence. And we still have at least a couple of seasons left.

See above.

Go watch the clip above again.

Go watch the above clip again.

Absolutely kriffing correct...any day of the stanging week!

See my various responses above.

Interesting assessment Mr Pritchard.