Lit Dathomir - books vs TV

nothing in TCW really contradicts courtship.

 

Well, the Nightsisters existing as an organized group before their leader in that book is a contradiction that is hard to ignore (unless she is really, really old).

But other than that, the rest can be chalked up to it being a big planet with different environments and cultures.

 

We could use a canonized Courtship special edition with extra chapters that clarify that, not only did Han get Darth Maul's home to win Leia over, but the planet came with its very own live Darth Maul in the legless flesh! And although everyone and their twin brother gets a chance to trade shots/cross blades with Maul before novel's end, don't worry -- Maul survives to fight another day.

 

The Nightsisters existing at all before Gethzerion contradicts Courtship.

 

Alright, at the time of Dathomir parts of the planet and its population are highly developed, while the ancestors of the witches seen in CoPL are the local version of hillbillies and hicks (also meaning their historical knowledge would be highly inaccurate). In comes the empire looking for a location for a new prison and Palpatine remembering how much trouble some of the witches were and has the more developed parts of the planet bombed back into the stone-ages. On top of that he has it erased from the star-charts, so twenty years later Luke has difficulty in finding it (note, that the Drakmarians and Imperials still knew, where the planet was).

 

The way I remember it so did the term nightsister mean a which who was dealing in "dark magic" and seemed to be a synonym with outcast. What they had not been before Gethzerion was organised.

 

This is all assuming that Mother Talzin isn't actually Gethzerion.

 

Which itself be another retcon and require massive explanation.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Out of the two, it is the easier retcon and the explanation isn't that massive.

*The book of the Sith points out that Talzin knows things about the Darkside that Palpatine didn't know.
*Her little stunt with the Bardotta seers would be good cause for Palpatine to not let her off Dathomir.
*Visually, the character is nearly identical to Gethzerion's depiction in previous media. Where major/villain characters are involved, typically there aren't two that look too identical because you want quick audience recognition.
*She has the only organized tribe of nightsisters we see, one that was wiped out and in need of being rebuilt. So what, she just happens to vanish the moment Gethzerion comes onto the stage - Kinda like how Parker and Spiderman are hardly ever seen in the same room together? To me, going forward all EU storytellers are likely going to use Talzin (whose already established in the new EU) instead of Gethzerion. Same concept, same role, different name.

Alright, overall it's fairly weak, but honestly, it's not that much of a stretch for this to be one of the first characters retconned where we see the same general personality, look, role, etc. but under a new name and a fresh face.

 

Interesting theory, but when we last saw Talzin in SoD, her physical body appeared to have died. She actually turned to stone, which I find even more amazing. Most organisms decay, she rather turned instantly into stone when the spirit ichor left her body. Gethzerion looks haggard from the depictions I've seen, so its possible that Talzin has been transforming in the years between these stories; but I like to view Dathomir as a vast planet with many clans / covens and Gethzerion is simply the leader of another clan. I hope to see Talzin again, but I feel it will be in spirit form.

 

Gethzerion and all the Nightsisters with her display the burst blood vessels on their faces, something every other depiction of the group has lacked. Gethzerion also lacked any of the abilities Talzin displayed, or even her manner of speaking. As others have pointed out before, Talzin's connected to the Force or Magic or whatever, is itself unlike most other things we've ever seen within the EU. Gethzerion was clearly just doing the same thing as the other Witches of Dathomir, though perhaps at a higher level. In general a lot of explanation and melding (Retconning) would need to be done to explain that.

Of course any writer is going to use Talzin from now on. Gethzerion isn't canon anymore.

 

Yeah, when you compare the various depictions of Nightsisters, both on and off Dathomir, no one compares to Talzin in ability or power. Gethzerion, Zalem, Ros Lai, etc all have power, but its limited compared to how Lucas and the writers developed Talzin and her place in the universe.

 

But Gethzerion is so much later than Talzin - at least twenty years later when Luke Skywalker and Leia have grown up. When Talzin died in Son of Dathomir, Luke and Leia were not even born. So there is a big gap which doesn't exclude neither Talzin nor Gethzerion. It seems that the whole cadre of Nightsisters changed, note the change of clothing from red (Talzin) to black (Gethzerion). So there is much to be filled, what happened after SoD and how the ranks of the Nightsisters were filled again. That could a nice serial (Dathomir tales) or a large arc within Rebels.

At least there is a continuation from SoD to CoPL, because Nightbrothers don't show up in CoPL. Thus the Nightsisters have to covet their men from the ordinary Dathomirian male population unless they travel unnoticed by Zsinj to Iridonia to find some Zabraks with horns for their usual interbreeding.

 

I seem to remember that the whole "only mate with Zabrak males" was only Talzin's quirk. Book of Sith, I think, showed that it was she who restricted the use of males to the Dathomirian Zabrak. Guess she had a thing for those horned guys. Additionally, an Insider article established that a contingent of Zabrak males first arrived on Dathomir only a few decades prior to the start of the Clone Wars, so it can be assumed that the Daughters of Allya were mostly Humans before that point. In the COPL era, all Nightsisters (and all good Witches) are Human, though, except perhaps a few individuals. I assume that most Nightsisters were historically Human, but that Talzin was born into a a family of hybrids; because of that, she restricted the use of male to Zabrak, because if fitted her own genetic makeup. However, most Dathomirians were killed during the Clone Wars, which allowed the full-Human clans to rise to prominence again.

 

Dathomir is a vast planet, so the clans of Nightsisters can all be separate groups unto themselves. The descriptions from CoPL seem to suggest that Gethzerion was at another location - very different from where Talzin's clan was. Same goes for Zalem - she was at a different location, and those Nightsisters were not the same ones we saw in the CW series. I think the wiki writers sometimes make connections when none are defined by LFL.

Sudooku, you're right that there is a big gap between Talzin and Gethzerion, that's why I think they aren't necessarily connected. Gethzerion didn't truly take over as leader of the CW Nightsisters, replacing Talzin - she's simply leader of another clan in my opinion. Gethzerion would have been alive when Talzin was, so there is no telling what she was doing during the same era...

 

I would not call Gethzerion's nightsisters a clan, they were more of a society.
We have to remember that there is notable difference between Talzin's and Gethzerion's nightsister. Talzin's seemed to actually be a clan, with blood ties between it member and a history that goes back at least one generation while Gethzerion's nigtsister were just a gathering of outcast witches who had been organised by her. Of course all the material between CoPL and tCW make matters rather unclear how the nightsisters worked…

 

I agree, Talzin's Nightsisters seemed more structured and organized, while Gethzerion's were a collection of outcasts. Talzin's also had a rich history that was shown in CW, SoD, and the Book of Sith. We do get some detail from Gethzerions group as well as Zalems, but nothing compared to the depth of Talzins.

 

I only hope that some of the big digs from Marvel, Dark Horse and Lucasfilm will read this thread at least irregularily to get some inspirations for their next work. I know that some SW-authors are reviewing this forum constantly. And I have to read the Book of Sith instantly.

 

Beside the below image, have we ever seen Silri use a sword?

 

Yeah, I agree the way they wrote Talizin its ....just she is so way out their in power that none of the nightsisters in COL could do what Talzin can. Talzin or the writers and Lucas that wrote her character even contradicts Stewarts Yoda novel, especially the par where Yoda tells Dooku to show him what his force could, and Dooku replies that the force is not magic and cannot make things appear out thing air. Well, we know of Talzin and the cup and sword and the stuff she pulled. Even adding the comic series of the un-aired arc Sons of Dathomir, Talzin does even more in that series ...taking over Dooku's body. She is just .......written that powerful

 

In the comic I was wondering what Sidious would intend with force-lightning Talzin-taken-Dooku. When I saw that the blue force-lightning drove Talzin's magick out of Dooku's body I had the idea that Talzin's green lightning and Sidious' blue flashings are kind of opposites. While Talzin's ichor is the incarnation and essence of life, Sidious' force-lightning is the ultimate expression of death par excellence. And both together are neutralizing each other. Sidious came to know about that when he had visited Talzin almost 38 years ago when they exchanged Dathomirian magicks and Sith-knowledge and whatever else.

 

I like to look at Talzin and Sidious as Yin and Yang, had they engaged each other 1v1, I believe they both would have mutually worn down the others power to the point of a draw. They could have equally destroyed each other in the process though, as both are extremely powerful. Talzin's base of power is Dathomir, it flows on and in the planet, that's how she can match a Sith lord like Sidious.

 

There is a section of the Ultimate Star Wars book, on page 194, that discusses Dathomir, "Isolated from other tribes on the planet, wary Nightbrothers are cautious of visitors who approach their village." This is a post-SOD publication, so perhaps it is hinting at other groups of Nightsisters and Nightbrothers on the planet, that weren't involved / shown in the CW.

 

It's a good thing that the people who work on Star Wars have always been so concerned about continuity and canon, otherwise we might have a lot of questions about this stuff.

 

They do Goinginside, that's why they have NEU and legends. Still, I'm not one to just let go of the past as I still love the stories.