Dave Filoni's POV - Grievous is no match for Anakin Skywalker

I've just been getting around to watching the Behind the Scenes stuff on the Season 1 DVD set and this really jumped out at me.

Dave Filoni says that he thinks, based on how much trouble Grievous has with Obi-Wan, that the Droid General would be no match for Anakin Skywalker?

The comment jumped out at me for a couple reasons. First it seems to be suggesting that Anakin is somehow a much better warrior than Obi-Wan is. Secondly it seems to ignore the one head to head confrontation this pair had in the universe as Jedi in the prime of their careers.

Is Dave Filoni perhaps selling both Obi-Wan and Grievous a little short here? Or do people think he's right?

 

Obi-Wan theoretically had better defence than Anakin, and at least in the ROTS novelization, that's why they wanted him to go after Grievous.

One would think that if Anakin could defeat Dooku, he could defeat Grievous as well.

 

Well, ask yourself this: if the council thought Anakin were the better choice, why did they send Obi-Wan?

Just because they didn't want to go along with Palpatine's suggestions? Or because they didn't think Anakin was the better choice? Or both?

(Even though I'm sure Palps knew they wouldn't go along with it, that's exactly why he suggested it in the first place - but that is beside the point)

Sure, Anakin may seem to be more powerful than Obi-Wan in terms of offensive qualities, but only because he gives in to his anger.

 

Fighting styles and strength can be interpreted in a number of ways with a number of results. A good match up for Anakin might not be so good for Obi-Wan, seeing as Anakin fares much better against Dooku than Obi-Wan does on-screen, yet ends up losing to Obi-Wan himself in the end. It's a matter of measuring their individual strengths, disadvantages, and other factors like willpower or physical prowess.

It's possible that Dave was either selling Anakin as THE Chosen One (y'know, awesome for a reason ), or he was pointing out that ultimately, Grievous doesn't stand a chance against a REALLY GOOD force sensitive opponent, i.e., Major Jedi and the Council.

Also, I'd agree that Anakin has a much more powerful offense than Obi-Wan, especially since part of his form's strength lies in taking an opponent's force and redirecting it against them, but the more Obi-Wan fights in duels, the closer his defense gets to impenetrable, what with experience and all that.

 

Anakin was the greater warrior between him and Kenobi, even Greivous thought so according to the ROTS novel. As GL once said, Anakin is stronger, Obi-Wan has more experiences.

 

No, that's his opinion. The old (true) Grievous could take a group of Jedi together, which included Jedi Masters. The whole "Grievous is weak, any Jedi can take him" began after ROTS, when Lucas weakened his character. His character also continued to weaken severely in TCW.

 

His character is exactly where it should be in TCW - perfectly matching that of the movies and that of how George Lucas sees he should be. He was never meant to take on more than one Jedi Master - he is capable of beating a knight or padawan but will for most part lose to a Jedi Council member one on one - and this makes perfect sense. The Koth/Grievous battle in "Grievous Intrigue" is a perfect example of how Grievous can fare, he can be challenging and his flurry of attacks with his cybernetics is dangerous, but once the force comes into play, the Jedi starts to overcome him - but then this is where his Magna Guards come into play to help even the battle.

That aside, I believe it's all about the matchup and Obi-Wan is a better choice to take on Grievous due to his defensive qualities and more level-headed attitude. Against Dooku, he gets his butt kicked because Dooku is a horrible matchup for him since he is more experienced, has more power with the force and his fencing style can seemingly cut through his defenses and open him up. Anakin on the other hand is a better choice against Dooku because of his strength and powerful/aggressive attacks that can weaken and potentially overpower Dooku. There is also the fact Anakin is a bit more of an unconventional Jedi doing some things other Jedi just don't do - and that move of grabbing Dooku and slicing his hands of in a suprise move was an indication of that.

 

I thought it was pretty obvious from ROTS. Obi-Wan is clearly less powerful than Anakin, but uses his experience and knowledge of Anakin's skills, plus Anakin's own overwhelming emotions and pride, to get the best of him. He "had the higher ground."

 

Agreed. I think that even at his peak, Grievous just wouldn't be able to handle a powerful Jedi Master. Knights, padawans, and maybe even the odd 'average'/scholarly Jedi Master, sure...but anything beyond that can pretty easily capitalise on his weak spot of The Force.

This talk of power and experience reminds me of the fortune cookie from Lair of Grievous which pretty neatly sums things up: Most powerful is he who controls his own power.

I think that if Grievous and Anakin seriously went all out in a duel, Anakin would win, though it'd be a pretty vicious match depending on Anakin's mental state. In any case, I pretty much imagine Anakin's powerful connection to the Force will let him clinch victory, but he might not be quite as methodical as Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's style is better suited to letting him plot out his next targets, after all.

What we need are more substantial council member fights, seamlessly woven into the storyline and generously spaced over the next few seasons.

 

Dave Filoni mentioned in a commentary for an episode that there won't be TOO many duels because otherwise it takes away from how special they when they do occur - and he 100% on the money. The last "bad vs good" duel we saw was Season 1 Episode 16 "Hidden Enemy" and the next "true" duel we saw after that was all the way in Season 2 Episode 9 "Grievous Intrigue" and not only where the duels awesome, but they were extra special since we've waited a long time to see one.

I'd like to see in future duels how the different Jedi Council Members fight and take on the likes of Ventress, Grievous and on special occasions Dooku himself. For instance, we know Yoda is incredibly quick and can overwhelm you with his speed, Mace Windu is more of an all rounder who has absolutely no holes in his form, then you have Kit Fisto who has a pretty flashy and exotic style of fighting, Plo Koon who I see as being a bit more like Anakin - aggressive and powerful strokes, but without that extra anger or hateful aggression Anakin can have. Ki-Adi Mundi I see much like Obi-Wan a solid all rounder, but perhaps not quite as good defensively, but perhaps slightly more aggressive....if and I hope they introduce Tiin and Kolar, I see them more "warrior" like in nature.

Really, this series is the last chance to see how all these characters would matchup - and not only could the fights be great, but lots of potential dialogue as well. I'd personally love to see a Jedi Council member like Mace or Plo put Ventress down on her arrogant ass and hand out a solid beating or see a very "upper class/elite" battle with Dooku and Council member - oh and Mace vs Greivous has to happen IMO, it would blend nicely with his comments in Ep3 how "Grievous will run and hide as he always does...he is a coward..."

 

This whole policy on duels being special is a mixed blessing.

On the bad side: It makes us wait. And everyone knows that fans hate waits, let alone delays. XD

On the plus side: They can devote more time to making the stories awesome, and the duels that DO occur won't disappoint.

 

I agree, the good General can take out a lot of Padawans, Knights, and normal Masters. But I fear he would meet his end at the hands of most Jedi Council members or Anakin Skywalker. This nothing to take from Grievous, those guys are just on another level.

 

Yeah, I agree. I think most major characters - Grievous, Jedi, Sith, and so on - have been downpowered to a more reasonable level in this series. For the better, I think. Sure, they must be powerful, but when you think about it, Dooku getting captured by the pirates makes perfect sense. Filoni has convinced me that the powerful characters don't have to be almighty to be exciting.

 

I'm sort of mixed on this. Anakin would take it if he relies heavily on the Force, but if he goes in saber flashing like he always does, well, he may not necessarily LOSE, but he probably won't do as well as Obi-Wan did, that's all I'm saying.

Not to detract from Anakin at all, it's just that his major advantage in swordplay is raw power, which Grievous' cyborg limbs would allow him to match Anakin at. It'd be a total back-and-forth with those two, with the proviso that I do believe Grievous could keep going for longer than Anakin could due to his robotic limbs not tiring at all.

Obi-Wan did so well because his style focuses more on defense and waiting for your foe to make the smallest mistake, then deftly exploiting it.

Not saying Anakin COULDN'T win, just saying that I agree with the Council that Obi-Wan would be the better choice in this PARTICULAR instance.

 

Both are very capable, but Obi-Wan had more experience and made the better choice for facing Grevious in Ep III.

 

Pretty much what I was saying- Grievous won't beat Anakin, but Anakin won't beat Grievous as easily as Obi-Wan did.

There's a lot to be said about patience and focusing on defence when facing someone the ROTS novelization states can top 20 strikes per second.

 

We are talking about Anakin here? The same Anain that went through a whole group of Tusken Raiders ( Men, women, and children) in almost no time flat?

I now this has been said, but most Jedi Masters , and experienced Knights would have no trouble defeating Grievous.

 

I don't find the Tusken Slaughter to be very impressive, TBPH. It's like if Anakin shot a bunch of fish in a barrel- similar amount of threat to himself, and equally hard to fail at.

Very few warriors can match a Jedi in melee combat- lightsabers give them an entirely unfair advantage. And Tuskens, while fierce, are far from the greatest warriors in the Galaxy.

 

Guys, Obi-Wan in ROTS had an unfair advantage in that he faced Grievous approximately 256 times during the Clone Wars, whilst Anakin and Grievous only met by hologram.

 

I agree with the notion that Obi-Wan(as written by Matt Stover) is the stronger defensive, more patient fighter when compared to Anakin. He can retreat all day until he wears you down.

Now this Grievous issue does still bug me a little. The Clone Wars has made it a point to show that Grievous is no match for a Jedi Master, or even an experienced knight the likes of Kit Fisto.

That said the series has also driven home that he's a coward, yet is he a coward that keeps challenging these Jedi when apparently he knows he can't win? That seems a little foolish to me. If he was a coward he'd run and cheat and do everything he could do to not fight fairly.

Yet in Episode 3 he clearly feels he's good enough to face Obi-Wan in single combat. There is something of a contradiction here. Him being bested by constatly by Obi-Wan, by Eeth Koth and by Kit Fisto and who knows who that is yet to come just doesn't fit the confident warrior we met in ROTS.

If he has no reason to be confident then why is he? It seems to me like George is retconning his own films again here, making a principle villian look weak when he's placed alongside any Jedi, many of which end up as canon fodder during Order 66, Jedi mowed down in Order 66 by beings much weaker than Grievous is.

Jango Fett killed a Jedi Master, why can't Grievous?

 

HATRED SMASHES COMMON SENSE! EVERY FANBOY KNOWS THAT!

Well, the thing is, we've only seen him in the capacity of challenging major masters and characters thus far. For all we know, his win-lose ratio against your average Jedi General might be pretty impressive, thus lending his tendency to actively challenge Jedi regularly some credit. After all, Nahdar Vebb comments that he's got 'so many trophies'.
And of course, Grievous never really fights fair in the first place, as Eeth Koth would find out. Bringing out two extra arms might count as cheating, but then again, you've got four-armed aliens, so that's a gray area.

My guess on the coward who challenges people is that he's, for lack of a more impressive term, an archetypical bully. He wants to be the biggest and baddest, and he wants to let his anger out, but if he's clearly outmatched, he'll either cheat his way back on top or he'll run like the coward he is.

 

Still doesn't explain him going one on one with Obi-Wan in ROTS.

And I'd hesitate to call Eeth Koth and Kit Fisto major masters, or even major characters. Jocasta Nu got way more screen time and dialog than they did and she got bested by a changling with an attitude.

Nahdar looked at a collection of Padawan braids when making his comment, so I'm not sure where that leaves Grievous either.

Grievous in The Clone Wars has been powered down so far that he must be getting laughed at by Ventress and Dooku.

 

I always wondered why they simply didn't make grievous be somewhat force sensitive?

 

I was under the impression that Obi-Wan was selected to go after Greivous in RotS for more reasons than his saber ability. They were hoping to capture the Separatist Council as well as Greivous, and sent Obi-Wan because unlike Anakin, he doesn't tend to bull rush things and the mission required a more delicate touch. That's why Obi-Wan went in alone first, without the troops to see what was going on.

As for a straight up fight, Anakin has the upper hand on Greivous in a number of ways, not the least of which being his ability to use improvisational attacks. Anakin has also shown to be willing to go to just about any lengths to win, something other Jedi do not do, and something Greivous would not be expecting. We're also talking about Anakin on the edge of Vader here, if we're talking about an ROTS showdown. Perhaps earlier in the Clone Wars I'd give Greivous the edge, simple because Anakin hadn't become so battle hardned at that point.

In any event, it would be a tremendous battle. I think Greivous has been a bit punked in the series, but that also speaks to the fact that the CIS hasn't won too many victories, which I think is a bigger overall issue than Greivous himself being bested by Obi-Wan and others.

 

Yes, like I said before, TCW weakened his character. Basically more than what was seen in ROTS.