Dave Filoni's POV - Grievous is no match for Anakin Skywalker

Maybe its just my perception thats askew....

To me Obi-Wan is one of the strongest Jedi in the Order, thats why he was sent to face Grievous in ROTS......because he is that good.

At this point in TCW I feel like the Council just could have sent any Master to deal with Grievous, so while not only is Grievous brought down a peg or two for me but it also effects my perception of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

As someone who is actually a fan of General Grievous(and I'm sure Koonfan can identify with this ) it really bothers me when he's constantly presented in an incompetent light. He's gone from being a really frightening threat who killed Jedi and kept their sabers as trophies to someone who has bested a couple Padawans and a very recently knighted Jedi in Nahdar Vebb.

No we really have not actually. What Lair presented was a vehicle to showcase that Grievous is not a threat to most Jedi, an episode where Dooku makes fun of his abilities and tells him he's really not that strong at all.

 

None of those are really traces of his characterization from AOTC - they'd be there in ROTS as much as Clone Wars. Things that would always be there. I'm not saying he should still be dwelling on those issues, he should be acting like how did in AOTC. I think before they started showing Anakin like he is now, he should have gone through a transitional phase first. A sudden switch of being very angsty, willing to sacrifice the mission (stopping Dooku) in order to save Padme, arrogant, having little respect for his Master, and inexperienced to being a responsible/seemingly experienced General General, laid back, a master of his own Padawan teaching what Obi-Wan did to him (and he hated) just less than two months ago, and being best friends with Obi-Wan in a timespan of seven weeks just isn't believable at all to me. None of these TCW traits are just expanded on ones from AOTC - they're complete changes. I'd be happy to see just some flashacks of Anakin gaining some maturity.

We are getting off topic though.

On Grievous: IIRC, in the ROTS novel Mace Windu told Obi-Wan before leaving for Utapau that he himself, maybe the best swordsman of theh Jedi Order, wouldn't be able to defeat Grievous, or soemthing to that effect. Vaapad, an aggressive form, was just not effective against Grievous's brute strength. It was only Obi-Wan's mastery of defense that could defeat Grievous.

If Grievous would fail against any Council member, why send the only Jedi who really understand Anakin after Grievous, when Anakin really needed some counselling at this time?

 

Well, I've always been a person whose glass of blue milk was always half full. Heck, I'd even say 'this glass was filled to the brim once' or 'this glass CAN be filled to the brim' or 'this is beside the point because milk is for drinking anyway'. Now to get back on topic.

I DO agree that showing him in his defeats isn't the best way to show his improvements, though you can look for just how hard he struggles as signs of awesomeness, much like Luke versus Vader in ESB.

Well, I actually think that there's SOME wiggle room in terms of time. Let's say that Grievous is, for all intents and purposes, really just starting out himself, being new to the whole cyborg thing. He's almost like Anakin being new to Knighthood. There's only so much Dooku can teach him at this point, yet he recklessly chooses to go looking for duels.

By the time of ROTS, most of the main characters have reached the pinnacle of skill, not least of which are Anakin, Obi-Wan and Grievous. Skywalker and Kenobi are often cited as being the preeminent duelists by the time of ROTS because unlike most of the Jedi Order, they have much more experience in real, practical dueling.
We can apply that to Grievous, too. Think about it. Grievous has dozens or even hundreds of Jedi to fight by ROTS in his long career in the Clone Wars. While he doesn't have the Force to help make the process expedient, he's probably going to end up fighting and sometimes killing a large number of Jedi (sadly, I admit, off-screen), learning more about how they fight, how to confront them, what works in duels, what he can use himself, etc.

If you're an optimist you can conclude that this actually shows. In Lair of Grievous, he's on the defensive most of the time when facing a member of the council. By Grievous Intrigue, he's able to hold his own and go on the offensive in separate one-on-one duels. By ROTS, the sheer number of fights he's been in marks him as dangerous enough that his counterpart, Obi-Wan, has to be sent in order to deal with him (there's the argument that they needed Obi-Wan for a specific KIND of victory, but that's another discussion entirely ).

So what it boils down to is that right now, Grievous is probably on par with Obi-Wan in their strengths and weak points. Given time to get more experience under their belt, they'll become two of the most dangerous duelists in the galaxy.

Actually, I was referring to Grievous Intrigue, wherein he was able to subdue Eeth Koth and hold off Obi-Wan on separate occasions. But in that case, well, if they DO make another story about this...third time's the charm, as someone anonymously stated.

 

I disagree, but we are getting off topic like you said. Anyway the Council sent OBi-Wan was the best for the job, I think most council memebers would have been able to handle Grievous, but Obi-Wan's defense gave him the best shot. Also the Council at the time didn't sense Anakin's inner turmoil at the time.

 

Yeah, we just view these episodes completely differently.

 

I can certainly understand why you'd view those episodes like that, though I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree.
I should note, though, that they're attempting to make major lightsaber duels into rare, special events (though mini-duels might simply be uncommon). As such, it might take awhile before we see Grievous again, not to mention the outcomes. The best we can hope for, what with multiple ROTS immunities, is that he forces whoever he's fighting to retreat, or holds a clear advantage. Or alternatively, they can make one whole episode dedicated to him slaughtering a group of skilled new characters.

Funny how ol' Ben's comments would reach far into the future when he said that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

Then again, maybe I'm just tailor-made to look for the best in things. I'm an optimist for one, and secondly, I'm a fan of supporting Jedi, so I'm used to analysing things like nuances, details, implications, and the like from what the characters do and/or accomplish.
I guess when you're trying to convince yourself that Plo Koon is a dynamic, wise Jedi with an even greater care for his clone troopers from two episodes and one moment, somehow, looking at Grievous as a credible threat from five major fights isn't as hard.

 

I'm of the opinion that CW Grievous is far stronger than ROTS Grievous, afterall he can now arguably match a council member in sabre to sabre combat, ROTS he clearly couldn't match Obi Wan. Although Obi Wan is incredibly powerful by the time of ROTS.
He is certainly not as powerful as in the cartoon, but rightly so as he was far too powerful then, but I still think Grievous should be able to easily defeat a jedi purely in sabre combat due to his enhancements, he should be more like Darth Vader, being able to batter his opposition into submission but with greater speed.
And he wouldn't stand a chance against Anakin, largely because if Grievous took the upper hand in a duel Anakin wouldn't hold back with force, unlike other Jedi who largely are more composed.

 

It sort of irks me that people talk about Grievous being nerfed by RotS. He was CREATED for RotS. That is his original characterization. That's what he was always supposed to be like. It only looks like they nerfed him because the EU blew his strength out of proportion, and everyone saw that portrayal first.

 

Exactly.

 

(sarcasm) Please. It's only overpowered if you don't like the character. That's how Mary Sues work, you need to recognise them and dislike them, because what else can you call Grievous in the old Genndy series? XD

While I largely agree about his abilities, I do note something interesting, though. While his speed, agility and strength WERE taken WAY out of whack, his tactics remain the same in both the old 2D shorts and the current show.
-He preys on the weakened or distracted. Being a cyborg, it's likely that he'd have an easier time fighting someone who just went through a large chase sequence, not to mention what Ki-Adi-Mundi said: They were exhausted.
-He tends to separate/isolate Jedi so that he can fight them one on one. Grievous repeatedly focuses his attention on no more than two Jedi at a time. On Hypori, he beats/scares back the other Jedi to try and focus down Ki-Adi, and starts finding ways to fight them one at a time
-He cheats. Whoever heard of a proud, warrior race guy finishing off five warriors after his GIANT ROBOT ARMY softened them up for him? Not to mention his ARMY OF MAGNAGUARDS that were sent to soften up Shaak Ti, which is essentially what he did with Eeth Koth.

That's not to take away that he has received a good deal of training from Dooku, though, nor that he isn't already deadly in his own right with his cybernetics. It's just that I believe he's always been a deceitful coward even back then.

 

One thing that is intresting is how Vader's "enhancements" helped distances himself from the Jedi persona(unwilling, but still), while Grievous chose these ehancements to becoming closer to the level of the Jedi.

 

Interestingly, that jives with comments that the creators of the Genndy series make in the commentary, that even in their uber-badpants form of Grievous, that the general still needed things like fear and surprise on his side to truly take on the Jedi, otherwise they might be able to rally and defeat him. Now that's more word of God and not really reflected on screen as much, but when you look at it, the only straight up duel we see him in where the Force user is composed and not fatigued is against Dooku, who, as expected, doesn't have any trouble schooling him.

 

Well after he got the upperhand on the Huk he was intent on genociding their entire species, out of revenge.

I find your definition of "proud warrior" interesting. By the same definition you could say that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were not playing fair against Maul in Phantom Menace because they double teamed him.

Being a proud warrior and fighting fair are two completely different things, though I don't know if Grievous considers himself to be that same warrior he was before his augmentation. Qymaen jai Sheelal died in much the same way that Anakin Skywalker did, what he was before was very likely long gone.

 

My definition of 'proud warrior' (which is VERY general, mind you, and only a framework that you expand on at a case by case basis ) would be a character who thrives on combat, seeking to prove himself, and being able to back up this mentality with skill and a sense of honour and/or fair play. "Proud warrior" is really more of a state of mind, though there's always the threat of descending into "arrogant jerk" or "genocidal maniac".

Well, I always thought that while Jedi were accomplished warriors, they certainly weren't fools. They'd finish a fight the best way they know how, with as little threat to bystanders as possible (setting aside the various ethical debates and accusations that can be hurled at them during the Clone Wars).
Besides, the Jedi seldom identify themselves as 'proud warriors', especially since Yoda believes wars don't make one great. They're mostly peacekeepers and philosophers who use what they can to bring about peaceful resolutions. It's kind of like how law enforcement officers don't do things like 'trial by combat' or 'duels', but go with a strategy that's meant to end the conflict quickly.

Grievous (or rather, the being that emerged from Qymaen jai Sheelal's broken psyche ) falls into the same light in my books, actually. He's certainly an ACCOMPLISHED warrior, who grew up in conflict and knows strategy, but he's certainly not foolish enough to NOT grab every advantage he can possibly get.

Then again, I'll readily admit that 'proud warrior' isn't quite what people were calling him in his debut, though it seems to be deeply embedded in the mythos of the character. Rather, let me attempt to rephrase that point: I find General Grievous' liberal use of his armies to weaken his opponents completely consistent with both his past and current portrayals.

 

I agree that Grievous's fighting deficits are embarrassing and should be addressed, but I also disagree with the notion that Kit Fisto is (or should be) automatically inferior because he's a relatively unimportant character. Fighting skill =/= character's importance. Which is why I disagree with the popular notion that Kenobi was, like, #4 or #5 in the entire Order. I'm sure that there are dozens of Masters with skill on par or in excess of Obi-Wan's.

 

...except for the pep talk in the ROTS novel which has Mace Windu, one of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history, telling Obi-Wan he is not just A master of Soresu, but THE master of it. The ultimate Soresu master. The master of the absolute defense.

I'd agree that there are probably at least ten Force users in the history of the galaxy that I'd put above him, but Kenobi deserves a spot on the Top Twenty list. All-time.

At least, IMHO. But I'll admit, I'm a Kenobi fan, so I may be a bit biased!

 

Nonsense. Obi-Wan can never be too awesome, especially since he's overshadowed by awesomeness already. His is the super condensed version.

 

[image=http://www.cabbagestew.com/images/shaak.jpg]

 

It all depends on your perspective, in the end. I see nothing truly tangible, considered in an objective perspective, that would lead me to conclude that Obi-Wan is in the top five Jedi of his era, much less of all time. Mace's words could be taken, purely and simply, as a pep talk for an occasionally insecure Jedi Master who is about to face the galaxy's most infamous Jedi killer. Windu also implies that Kenobi is the more skilled swordsmen of the two, and we know that Obi-Wan is not on Mace's level.

The fact that he gets more screentime has nothing to do with it; he's a more prominent character, a more important character, but not necessarily a more powerful one.

Personally? I'd put Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, Cin Drallig, Eeth Koth, Anoon Bondara, and Plo Koon, and any of the other Council Masters on par with Obi-Wan. I'm sure, if pressed, I could find feats and objective quotes to support such a theory.

That is not to say that Obi-Wan isn't powerful or one of the best. But I strongly disagree with the notion that he's the de facto number four in the entire Order.

I'd agree that there are probably at least ten Force users in the history of the galaxy that I'd put above him, but Kenobi deserves a spot on the Top Twenty list. All-time.

At least, IMHO. But I'll admit, I'm a Kenobi fan, so I may be a bit biased! [/quote]

 

Cin Drallig got killed by Anakin in like 4.2 seconds..............Boondara didn't fair much better against Maul.........

No wonder Obi-Wan became a hermit.............

 

Anakin circa Episode III generally strikes me as far stronger than Obi-Wan. It's not about their lightsaber "forms" or any of that... or even the power of the dark side. It's that Anakin has midi-chlorians out the wazoo and by this point he's figured out how to use them. Even well short of his full potential he's still stronger, because even a fraction of that potential is huge. That's the whole reason Palpatine is so keen on recruiting him, because for all-around purposes when we talk about a Jedi or Sith's power, we mean the strength of the connection. So if Mace can telekinetically mess Grievous up and give him a cold, Anakin should be able to crush him into a cube.

Now, what makes Obi-Wan able to beat Anakin one-on-one? That comes down to their relationship. It's not about Djem Kwan Do vs. Soresu-Goku or whatever. Or about general abilities. In this instance it's not even about the strength of that connection to the Force I just mentioned, at least not primarily.

The movie novelization puts it best. That fight is about Obi-Wan vs. Anakin. It's personal. And Obi-Wan probably knows Anakin better than anyone, more than Anakin himself in some ways. He knows his apprentice is impulsive and arrogant. Knows he'll give chase onto the lava river, knows he'll get so caught up in the fight he'll get tunnel vision and forget about that pesky high ground Obi-Wan's heading for. And at some level I'd bet Obi-Wan probably knows Anakin will try to make that fateful leap instead of exercising patience or Force forbid break off his pursuit. Without that level of insight Obi-Wan's just another Jedi, more dangerous than most but clearly less of a challenge than Dooku.

And that's as close to a "Power Level" post as I ever want to get.

 

Please. Like she couldn't use the force to at least slam him against the wall?

 

This would kinda be like me running around in the wake of The Mandalorian Plot claiming all Mandalorians are warriors................

It's now very clear that Shaak Ti could destroy Grievous with the bat of an eyelash, probably Obi-Wan too.