David Brin and his opinions about Star Wars

The following is an article written by David Brin (A Science Fiction Author) I would like to say that I love all Five films and I could be considered a gusher. I do not agree with these words. I did think that you would all find the contents of this to be interesting if nothing else.

I do love the films, this is just an interesting POV.

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"Star Wars" despots vs. "Star Trek" populists

Why is George Lucas peddling an elitist, anti-democratic agenda under the guise of escapist fun?

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By David Brin

Well, I boycotted "Episode I: The Phantom Menace" -- for an entire week.

Why? What's to boycott? Isn't "Star Wars" good old fashioned sci-fi? Harmless fun? Some people call it "eye candy" -- a chance to drop back into childhood and punt your adult cares away for two hours, dwelling in a lavish universe where good and evil are vividly drawn, without all the inconvenient counterpoint distinctions that clutter daily life.

Got a problem? Cleave it with a light saber! Wouldn't you love -- just once in your life -- to dive a fast little ship into your worst enemy's stronghold and set off a chain reaction, blowing up the whole megillah from within its rotten core while you streak away to safety at the speed of light? (It's such a nifty notion that it happens in three out of four "Star Wars" flicks.)


Anyway, I make a good living writing science-fiction novels and movies. So "Star Wars" ought to be a great busman's holiday, right?

One of the problems with so-called light entertainment today is that somehow, amid all the gaudy special effects, people tend to lose track of simple things, like story and meaning. They stop noticing the moral lessons the director is trying to push. Yet these things matter.

By now it's grown clear that George Lucas has an agenda, one that he takes very seriously. After four "Star Wars" films, alarm bells should have gone off, even among those who don't look for morals in movies. When the chief feature distinguishing "good" from "evil" is how pretty the characters are, it's a clue that maybe the whole saga deserves a second look.

Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?


Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn't be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.


"Good" elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability.


Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.


True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited.


Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil.

That is just the beginning of a long list of "moral" lessons relentlessly pushed by "Star Wars." Lessons that starkly differentiate this saga from others that seem superficially similar, like "Star Trek." (We'll take a much closer look at some stark divergences between these two sci-fi universes below.)

Above all, I never cared for the whole Nietzschian Ãœbermensch thing: the notion -- pervading a great many myths and legends -- that a good yarn has to be about demigods who are bigger, badder and better than normal folk by several orders of magnitude. It's an ancient storytelling tradition based on abiding contempt for the masses -- one that I find odious in the works of A.E. Van Vogt, E.E. Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and wherever you witness slanlike super-beings deciding the fate of billions without ever pausing to consider their wishes.

Wow, you say. If I feel that strongly about this, why just a week-long boycott? Why see the latest "Star Wars" film at all?

Because I am forced to admit that demigod tales resonate deeply in the human heart.

Before moving on to the fun stuff, will you bear with me while we get serious for a little while?

In "The Hero With a Thousand Faces," Joseph Campbell showed how a particular, rhythmic storytelling technique was used in almost every ancient and pre-modern culture, depicting protagonists and antagonists with certain consistent motives and cha

 

I have a few things to say.
I wanted it to be separate from Mr. Brin's comments.

1. No one ever had a parade for Vader. Even if he lived there would not have been one.

2. I find it amusing that Brin pokes fun at Lucas for writing a story about a Galactic Empire. Brin wrote a book called "Foundation's Triumph" It is a continuation of an Isaac Asimov series. The story involved a Galactic Empire.

3. Lucas has never done anything anti-democratic. One of the SW messages is that Democracy is the way to go.

4. Yoda makes sense, from a certain POV.

-Seldon

 

Was this guy watching Star Wars? Seriously. I mean, I pick apart the PT because it just doesn't live up to OT for me, but SW is the pinacle of sci-fi fantasy whether Yoda's a crack-fiend, Jar Jar exists or Greedo shoots first. Well...maybe not that last one...

Fear->anger->hate->suffering i.e. evil never really did much for me, but I chocked it up to Yoda being a little green freak. I think more along the lines that excessive amounts of the above emotions lead to evil, but are not in and of themselves inherently evil.

But that GL has some megalomaniacal agenda for pushing elitism and blah blah blah -insert writer's self-agrandizing revelation here- is insane.

Funny how I've read gobs of SF -it's pretty much all I DO read- and I've not only never heard of this guy, more importantly, I've never heard of his BOOKS. PT/OT basher/gushers have more credibility in one post than this hack's entire career.

This Brin guy can go **** ******* and the soap box he rode in on.

 

SW isn't sci-fi. That's what he doesn't understand. It's space-fantasy, which is entirely different. Also, he said about 5 of 6 times tha "Vader murdered billions". Well, Vader wasn't 100% innocent, but he was no more guilty than every last Stormtrooper or Imperial officer on the Death Star. Tarkin was in command, and he made the decision and gave the order to destroy Alderann. Not Vader. I have a hard time reading a treatise bashing something when the author doesn't even have his facts about what he is bashing correct.

 

Star Wars is Mythology, a fairy tale....

And isn't George Lucas pretty Liberal in his beliefs?

 

In teaching us how to distinguish good from evil, Lucas prescribes judging by looks: Villains wear Nazi helmets. They hiss and leer, or have red-glowing eyes, like in a Ralph Bakshi cartoon. On the other hand, "Star Trek" tales often warn against judging a book by its cover -- a message you'll also find in the films of Steven Spielberg, whose spunky everyman characters delight in reversing expectations and asking irksome questions.


Didn't Vader turn back to the light side at the end?

Isn't that saying, "don't judge a book by it's cover"?

Also, Anakin did not just save his son. He killed the Emperor. He ultimately saved the galaxy. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't....perhaps everything would not have unraveled?

 

The only Brin book I have read is a short story collection called Otherness which is VERY good btw.

I have no idea why he has it in for Lucas, we are not mindless drones who would have forgiven Hitler for war crimes, or Vader for that matter. And I don't believe for even a moment that Lucas is suggesting that.

 

By now it's grown clear that George Lucas has an agenda, one that he takes very seriously. After four "Star Wars" films, alarm bells should have gone off, even among those who don't look for morals in movies. When the chief feature distinguishing "good" from "evil" is how pretty the characters are, it's a clue that maybe the whole saga deserves a second look.
Either Mr Brin himself is very ugly and succeeds at nothing, or he just has something against pretty-people films regardless of his past. Either way, this is a non-issue IMO. If you're talking heroes in an epic saga, you want them to look good. Why? Because heroes are people you're supposed to look up to, both physically and mentally. Heroes have to inspire you in such a way, that it drives you to do the same thing (that thing may be giving without any thought of reward, or something else like.. trying to get the abs that he/she has )

Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?

Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.

True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited.

Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil.

That is just the beginning of a long list of "moral" lessons relentlessly pushed by "Star Wars." Lessons that starkly differentiate this saga from others that seem superficially similar, like "Star Trek." (We'll take a much closer look at some stark divergences between these two sci-fi universes below.)
I removed some of his other points because I don't give a hoot about what he thinks of "elites" (he obviously doesn't like them) but these last two points bug me. First off, Darth Vader isn't forgiven (the galaxy still hates him), and secondly it has NOTHING to do with him being important enough? It's called symbolism Mr Brin. Yes symbolism. This means that in an epic saga you need an epic character in a conflict of epic proportions to get the symbolism across. The entire story of redemption wouldn't work half as well if Star Wars was called Dr. Evazan's Medical Adventures in the GFFA only to end it with him realising he's been really really mean. As for the next point: who says these emotions are justified. Just cos they are natural doesn't make them justified. Lucas is right here. Human emotions CAN turn a person evil. Any amount of fear, anger, hate can lead to lots of suffering. In my own life I try to stay clear from these emotions as much as possible making me probably the least hostile person to walk this globe. I have no intention of harming anyone, something which an emotion like hate could change in an instant.

 

Was that article meant as a joke?

 

David Brin is full of himself because he gives lectures on solving the world's problems to NASA & places like that. But he's a moron. Case in point:

On his website he posted a LONG complex quiz - he stated at the outset that this was a Survey he was using for Research and that he would appreciate Volunteers. Out of curiosity I started to fill out the "survey" but something about it seemed fishy to me - it was loaded with leading questions and obviously marginalist terminology - about halfway through I zipped to the bottom and was shocked to find that the whole thing was a HOAX - the Survey asked something like 'Will Belief Systems Determine The Future Of Humanity' and at the end he wrote in tiny letters (AFTER the Submit button) something like, 'Of course not - wise human beings not superstitious religious fanatics will determine the future of mankind'. Now, I found this very insulting - how many of his fans, unwittingly thinking they had contributed to his 'research' had wasted time to answer the long essay questions not realizing that he was just making a 'point'?

So I emailed him calling him out on it - his response? "Who are you? I'm in print in blah blah number of languages, I give lectures at Nasa, go away!" and he put me on his spam list!

Secondly, he also wrote a stupid book about surveilance technology that basically stated "If you don't like being spied on then you must have something to hide" and suggested that everyone just accept illegal voyeurism!!

His opinions about SW are based on *one* quote from the NYTs where Lucas Obvioulsy has his tongue in his cheek. But this guy's just too dumb to realize it!
Oh, and his writing sux : it reads like sci-fi from the 1950s - but without the originality & ideas.

 

To illustrate how ignorant Brin is I thought I would make this fact perfectly clear.

In the article Brin says that he hates Star Wars and that authors like Greg Bear write real good science fiction. Greg Bear is the author of Star Wars: Rogue Planet.

Really Mr. Brin needs to get his facts before making a public document.

-Seldon

 

i see his point about vader, but what you need to remember is that rotj was not a story about revenge, it was about remorse and forgiveness. The issue of vader murdering people is partly justified by the fact that he was merely the emporers puppet. when the emporer choose to discard vader and train luke, vader awoke from the spell, and suddenly saw where his true loyalty should be placed.


SW messages is that Democracy is the way to go.

from a certain point of view.

in the PT, the flaws of democracy are exposed, and the need for leadership and order are outlined. tyranny takes advantage of the republics weaknesses, but the real message is that a monarchy that rules with consent of the people works best for everyone.

 

another theme in star wars is also that power corrupts....just look at anakin.

 

Mr Brin has some...unique...opinions expressed there. Well, unique in here.

Ah well. Just because someone has their facts twisted, and has an odd view of the greatest movies of all time, I'm not going to start posting flame material.

Just - Star Wars rules!

 

First_Stage_Lensman: while Brin's obviously an arrogant S.O.B, I can't help but agree with his statement that rational human beings and not religious fanatics should (or will) determine the course of the world... I think we can all agree on the fact that religious fanatics of any kind (christian, muslim, jewish, etc etc) are responsible for more sorrow and joy...

fanaticism in ANY way, is wrong...

 

David Brin is living proof that PhD stands for "Piled High & Deep". Back in 2002, we had a lengthy thread in the AOTC forum about Brin's fatuous, plangent and dishonest commentary on Star Wars.

The most smugly ignorant comment by Brin had to be his take on the switching of allegiance: Characters who get angry join the dark side. Brin wanted to know of a single case of someone getting so upset at a hated enemy that he joined them.

I'll give him two.

Marshall Petain of France was a hero for his country. He had led the war against Germany in WW1. He was bitterly anti-German. But in 1940, when the Wehrmacht rolled into Paris, he was so furious... he joined the Nazis and helped deport French citizens to Hitler's concentration and death camps. He was spared execution for treason by DeGaulle because he had gone senile.

During the Spanish Civil War, the Popular Front was a coalition of various groups who had joined forces to fight against fascist general Franco and his backers: Hitler and Mussolini. Among the members of the Popular Front were Anarchists, Anarcho-Syndicalists (no, Monty Python didn't make them up) and Trotskyists who were so radically anti-fascist and pro-collectivist, that even other communists (let alone socialists, liberals and others) thought they were going too far. The radicals were so hell bent on (just one example) collectivizing farms, that when the Popular Front government refused (on the grounds that winning the war was the first priority), many of them joined Franco!

Extremists of one end of the spectrum who change their colors usually become extremists on the other end of the spectrum.

There are so many examples of this sort of thing it would be nearly impossible to list them all. But Brin is only interested in basking in his own ignorance.

But what do you expect from the guy who wrote The Postman?

 

Guys: It is one thing to disagree with a writer, it is another to flame him. Stop with the Brin insults and disagree in a proper intelligent manner.

 

This isn't the first time I've seen Brin's "oppinion" of the saga, nor is it the first time I've read negative oppinions from other writers in the genre of Scifi or Fantasy in regards to GL's work in the SW films.
I expect to see or hear from one or the other around Ep. III's release as well.

Anyway my problem with this is here:

" Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?
Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn't be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow. (this is either about the Jedi or Palpatine or the empire and I find the oppinion dubious since two of the three are the bad guys)
"Good" elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability. (No clue)
Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough. (this I think is about Vader and anakin)
True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited. (What does he mean by this?, Did he watch the Original trilogy. In the OT the rebel Alliance is fighting the Empire which I think embodies this notion)
Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil. (This I think is about the Darkside gradually turning a good person with good intentions evil. The old addage about "the road to hell..." comes to mind in rebuttal to this)"

The thing with this is he never states plainly where in the movies this supposed "Bil of rights between the films." Can be best seen...what scene, what line, what script page you can't make statements like that without precise references to back your statements up without it sounding like you're just talking to hear yourself sound all academic-like.

"No wonder George Lucas publicly yearns for the pomp of mighty kings over the drab accountability of presidents. Many share his belief that things might be a whole lot more vivid without all the endless, dreary argument and negotiating that make up such a large part of modern life.
If only someone would take command. A leader."

Yes In the PT Lucas shows the faults and weaknesses of the democratic form of government but then in the Ot GL clearly shows the excesses of the autocratic system. IMO he advocates neither he says both have pros and cons; the democratic system is supposedly fair to all but it also can curry stagnating beureacracy and cancerous corruption, the Autocractic system has the speed and effeciency of only asking one person what to do, but if you dissagree with that decision it often leads to cruelty and oppression from the autocrat, which only invites rebellion and civil war.
It is my oppinion that this is plain from watching the saga. I don't know why David Brin never saw it?

 

Darth_Dude:

>> First_Stage_Lensman: while Brin's obviously an arrogant S.O.B, I can't help but agree with his statement that rational human beings and not religious fanatics should (or will) determine the course of the world... I think we can all agree on the fact that religious fanatics of any kind (christian, muslim, jewish, etc etc) are responsible for more sorrow and joy... fanaticism in ANY way, is wrong<<

That's all well & good, but the *honest* way to get this message across would be to write an essay or book about it - NOT to trick your fans into agreeing with you. That's just plain Wrong.

Also, the quote which bothers Brin so much is obvioulsy not to be taken seriously. Here's a GL quote from 'Mythmaking' : "I wanted to reestablish the fact that Padme had been *elected* as Queen, served her two terms in office and then stepped down. It's the opposite of what Palpatine does...I wanted Padme's character to serve as an example of what Leaders *should* do, which is serve their term and then leave."

Also, Lucas states somewhere else in the book that using terms like Queen & Princess was just to give the story a faraway quality - it *is* a fairy tale, after all but those words mean the same things as 'President' or 'elected official' in TGFFA. Brin is one of those people who think that they're Right so they don't have to do research - it's only a *movie* after all. That's so pretentious it makes me sick.

 

Remember the final scene in "Return of the Jedi," when Luke gazes into a fire to see Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader, smiling in the flames? I found myself hoping it was Jedi Hell, for the amount of pain those three unleashed on their galaxy, and for all the damned lies they told.

Looks like someone is confusing the novel with the movie. Let's get it before bashing it, shall we?

 

He does make some fairly valid points about SW. It is a sage about the "elite" class, the warrior elite=Jedi and the political elite=Leia and Padme. So in that respect, he has some valid points about how a story such as this doesn't give our democracy and government institutions 'justice.'

But when it come to Campbell and Star Wars. His analysis just falls apart on some very bad assumptions and misclaims.

--------------- On Campbell:
One, his take on Campbell was almost accurate save for one vital piece. He says he creates this recipe for story-telling that supports the elite. Wrong - the really great thing that Campbell did was this: He demonstrated through man's favorite stories of all time just how ALIKE and SIMILAR all peoples, nations, and civilizations are.

Not that we are some homogenous race. But that we are all people. As Kennedy so greatly said, "Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal." Campbell's great power was in that he was able to show that we all share the same morals, the same basic beliefs of right and wrong, and though we come from different civilizations and religions - we are all common.

It was NOT to create a recipe for elitest story-telling. Or even a recipe for every story or every piece of literature - only MYTHS. And I've read much Campbell and nothing I've ever read refers these stories supporting some elite class.

While many myths and fables and stories have princes and knights and 'elite' people, they do so because they are simply more interesting to us the 'viewer.' They are fantastic and a 'far away place' (nod - credit above).

Personally, I find Luke to be very much the normal guy like you and me. Anakin too. They have special powers - and I live my own special powers through their story. It isn't elitest. They are the most important people in the story because they ARE the story. Not because they are better than me or you.

I relate to them, not as an elitist, but as a person who believed in themselves.

------------------------ On Vader:

Here is really where he completely loses all footing in his argument.

First, the forgiving of Vader compared to Hitler. Nowhere and anywhere does it suggest that Vader would have been cleared of war crimes or that the galaxy forgave him. Nobody save Luke and "the Force" forgives him. His own daughter doesn't show up to the funeral.

That contention is, in itself, a pretty darn evil thing to preach. Above all, it is just plain dumb.

Whoa.. whoa. There is the little thing called Christianity.

Forgiveness of your sins and being accepted into heaven is a HUGE tenet of Christian and Western Civilization. And yes, according to Jesus, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.

The concept of 'forgiveness' and 'love your enemies' is an evil thing to preach. What?!?! The Koran and the Buddha teach the same lessons. I guess they don't know what they speak of.

His whole concept of evil and understanding of 'moral right and wrong' is completely flawed for that matter.

Yes, Fear does lead to Anger and Anger to Hate. One such action - EVEN IF JUSTIFIED - can lead you down a path that is evil. Evil does not mean legal or illegal - that is purely an Atheistic POV - which doesn't hold water for people who believe in a higher power.

One corruption builds upon another and another. Christ speaks a great deal about ANY sin being detrimental to the soul. The Buddha warns against rationalizing negative emotions.

Brin - if you are out there - wake up. If you harbor hatred and animosity to someone, no matter how justified, it will have a negative impact on your life and soul. Let go.

He's not preaching 'popcorn' morality. Do some learning on morality, I suggest. Until midichlorians entered the SW universe, all of the lessons were clear moral principles which resonate with EVERY MAJOR WORLD RELIGION. Every teaching of Yoda has an synonymous quote within pick-your-religion

 

Also - it's a damn movie! You watch it to enjoy it! If you learn something good - that's great! But first and foremost it's for entertainment!

 

My opinion of David Brin is that he is an idiot.

 

So called "learned" people despise anything that pulls people away from them as being the sole source for knowledge in their lives. For every person that enjoys and understands the message of Star Wars thats one less person to gravel at his feet for scraps of his knowledge. The ultimate form of elitest pompus a$$.

So all that is left for them is to attempt to tear it down. Unfortunatley for them, this exposes them as the close minded, dim witted knuckle heads that they truly are.