David Brin's commentary on AOTC and what it reveals...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kiki-Gonn, Sep 19, 2002.

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  1. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    As much as I tend to question some of Lucas' more recent decisions, there's a lot to like about the man himself.
  2. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    Well, like I say, you can't force them. That way lies flaming and banning. Personally, I would think that more people would enjoy reading about mythology and Campbell and the like, but apparently not. If they did, Brin certainly wouldn't be able to pull what he just did.

    Many people around here surpass me in making connections actually. I can just be really lyrical about it. Plus I have a lot of spare time on my hands. The response has been very positive regarding my stuff however. I'm glad to give something back to Lucas and friends. I appreciate the comments. I'm a fan of yours as well.

    *David Brin suddenly enters again. I snap to attention.*

    Brin: 47! It's almost time for bed. Have you forgotten my nightly reading material! Lucas' ascension to world governor is upon us!

    Me: Sorry sir!

    *I hand him a book from the Left Behind series*

    Brin: Excellent.

    *Brin turns and stomps out, night cap angrily swinging*



  3. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    JediH,

    I didn't get that at all from Brin's commentary.

    Abstract,

    I did not say GL was evil. I merely gave the dictionary definition of despots. If Lucas meant something else, he should have said it.

    Gomer,

    Of course there's no point to the SW movies. I mean, redemption, forgiveness, faith, what kind of points are those? (Tongue-in-cheek face goes here).

    Lady S.
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    My interperetation of Lucas comments regarding despots is pretty close to the way Anakin puts it in AOTC.

    He thinks all the people should discuss the issues, decide what is best for eveyone, and then do it, which is the purest ideal of democracy.

    As Padme points out, the problem is not everyone agrees, and you end up with a lot of inaction due to indescision.

    Anakin's logical conclusion is they should be made to agree, by someone who is wise.

    I can see Lucas' point. If there was a way that everyone could discuss the pros and cons and then someone could make a definative call on the outcome, then you could potentially have the best of both worlds. The problem with that is absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    It seems that each trilogy highlights the pros and cons of both forms of government. In the prequels, the Republic falls largely due to the populace's opinion that it has grown to large to be practical, so the people gladly give the chancellor power to cut through the seemingly endless red tape.

    The problem is the guy they give power to is corrupt.

    I don't think it is easy to say "Democracy is better than having a Despot", just as it isn't easy to say "Having a despot is better than having a democracy". Both have their plusses and minuses, and both are succeptable to corruption. It seems as though Lucas is actually for some sort of middle ground solution.
  5. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Gomer,

    Here's my take on democracy: It's a terrible form of government, except for all the others that are so much worse.

    The main problem with democracy is that people don't inform themselves of the issues, or they don't vote or they are swayed by emotions.

    I'll take democracy, with all its faults, any day over any sort of dictatorship, monarchy or whatever, no matter how benign.

    I liked Padme's answer: "Who's going to make them?"

    Lady S.
  6. selina Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2001
    star 5
    Heya Lady S

    Do I need 2 say anything?
  7. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    sel,

    Thanks. Only if you want to add to the discussion of David Brin's comments and how right or wrong he is in his assessment of GL and SW.

    Lady S.
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Anakin's suggestion is the pure ideal, and in practice doesn't work out as well as it sounds.

    It's not that I am particulary for either myself, but I think it is important to separate your patriotism from your assessment on the matter, which is why I try to see both sides of everything.
  9. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "But please, let's not hang the man for forming a political opinion"

    Did he even state his politics? Good grief, it was just a quote. True, he did seem to imply benign despotism could be good(whatever the hell benign despotism is. Any takers?).

    Still, he did come out and admit he's a romantic. But I don't want to make any assumptions based on one interview.

    And who's to say THE REPUBLIC from these films was ever supposed to mirror contemporary ones?

    The Republic in some ways mirrors the Roman Republic and the Holy Roman Empire.

    I just don't understand why some see the politics in the prequels, which have to be corrupt or have failing systems in order for the Empire to rise, as mirroring Lucas' own.

    BTW, I've talked to a few members of Lucasfilm before, particularly one from JAK Productions and a few ILMers.

    I can tell you, yes he does ride herd hard when it comes to the work. But, he also is open to ideas.

    Overall, these people told me he's a nice person.
  10. selina Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2001
    star 5
  11. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "Here's my take on democracy: It's a terrible form of government, except for all the others that are so much worse"

    Are you Mrs. Churchill?

    I agree with Churchi...err..you. :p
  12. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    gomer,

    Yeah, because you can't force people to agree, as we have seen often enough on these boards.

    One small point, a belief in democracy does not necessarily equal patriotism to a particular country.

    And I do believe I'm being impartial here because I can't stand David Brin. It's just that when I read his articles, all of them, and then the article he quoted GL's comments from and commented on, I found he did not misquote GL or take it out of context. That was my opinion, assessment, whatever, of D. Brin's remarks.

    Lady S.

    EDIT: ShaneP: I don't know, maybe in a previous life. LOL!
  13. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I don't think it is easy to say "Democracy is better than having a Despot", just as it isn't easy to say "Having a despot is better than having a democracy". Both have their plusses and minuses, and both are succeptable to corruption. It seems as though Lucas is actually for some sort of middle ground solution.

    Except that democracy usually has the checks and balances of that "other opinion" to keep it in line, something dictatorship does not have, which is why I'll take inefficient democracy over a dictatorship anyday. In fact in some cases the so-called "inefficiency" is built into the system to keep anyone from acting too rashly in the heat of the moment.

    The fact is the most likely reason the "Republic" failed is because the PEOPLE of the Republic failed. That is their government and they haven't taken enough of an interest in it to see that is has been run properly and they are really the ones who have allowed the rot to set in.
  14. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Goodness, this thread has taken a strange turn...

    Sorry to be so late in my reply, but unlike many of you, I have not access or time to get on-line until evening.

    I apologize if my post concerning genius was misunderstood. I was not discussing the difficulties "smart" people have relating to others and the world. There are a lot of smart people on this forum... members of my family have IQs around 140 to 150. They are very "smart" but they are not within the genius range. I am speaking of people with IQ's above 160. The truly "genius" individuals... You may go your whole life without meeting someone who has an IQ of 180 or such, but when and if you do, it is a very interesting experience (at least from your point of view...I am sure it is not nearly so fascinating for them...LOL!).

    And, Darth....

    "...And Trek has stood the test of time for more than thirty years."

    "Maybe the TV show and Star Trek name has. The films have not stood the test of time. That much is fact. So no, I think you're wrong."


    Well, since I was referring to the whole Star Trek fanchise (including the television show) I am not wrong, actually. :)


    " Actually, I thought the book was very well written and thought provoking."

    "His books suck. That's my opinion, and my opinion is the only one that matters where I'm concerned."

    How sad. You limit yourself when you are so unable to acknowledge the value of anyone's opinion but you own.

    "insulting numerous other people who post here"

    "Nowhere where have I insulted a single person here. Show me where I mentioned one member of this forum by name and insulted them.... But that doesn't mean they insulted anyone personally."

    Personal insults are not the only ones that count, my friend. If I make some blanket statment about "people who ride motorcylces" which is derogatory, I have insulted all motorcycle riders, whether or not I name them all by name...

    Do you not feel Brin has insulted you personally when he made negative comments about Star Wars and its fans? Did he need to address you personally for you to feel affronted?

    I guess I just will never truly understand why some people feel the need to put down fans of other shows, movies, books etc. As though liking something else is somehow a threat to what they like. I like to drink tea...and I don't see coffee drinkers taking offense. Why can this simplicity not apply to fandom which is often so fractious?




  15. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I did not say GL was evil. I merely gave the dictionary definition of despots.

    But then you're only defining half of what Lucas said. To fully understand his position, we must also define benevolent:

    Having a disposition to do good; possessing or manifesting love to mankind, and a desire to promote their prosperity and happiness; disposed to give to good objects; kind; charitable.
    So a "benevolent despot" would have ultimate power to promote the prosperity and happiness of mankind through kindness and charity. Now that doesn't sound half bad.

    Of course, even Lucas realizes that no human is capable of acting in such a capacity and so the dream of a benevolent despot must remain just that.
  16. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    Let me just say I can't believe no one found my comments even mildly amusing. I mean, "Postman Ranch." Come on! That was hysterical.

    Sigh.
  17. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    JediHeretic47

    I was just about to post a review of your so-called "humor" in which I would take simple words and phrases out of context and then blow them out of proportion to insinuate the true evil nature of your character.
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  19. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    Like I didn't see that one coming.
  20. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    It was hillarious, JH. 8-}

    I have just plowed my way through this entire thread, and I will post my take on this whole thing once I've had a bit of a think about it.
  21. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    JediHeretic47,

    Oh, so that was humor? Still laughing.

    Durwood,

    GL uses the term 'good,' not benevolent. Which can be interpreted to mean 'being good at being a despot.' When someone who has the grasp of the English language that Lucas does, you'd think he would be more self-editing when speaking in a public forum, knowing he's going to be quoted and read.

    Lagnaippe,

    I have met many people with IQ's above 160. I even spoke at length with a doctor whose IQ is 300. He had very few social graces as he spent most of the time from the time he was four years old studying! He was the doctor that the series about the teenage doctor, "Doogie Howser" was based on. No, that wasn't his name.

    Lady S.
  22. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    I don't think Doogie Howser is a name.

    "Hey Doog, how ya doin'?"

  23. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    JediHeretic47,

    It was the name of the TV show and the TV show's teenaged doctor.

  24. Gaudior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2002
    star 1
    Well, Brin's email reply to me revealed enough... oh yeah, he's not jealous of Lucas. Not one bit!

    "Hi

    Thanks for your kind words and insights. I find it genuinely moving when
    people write to me in the way you did.

    I scanned your message and found it among the most polite and intelligent of
    those who wrote to berate mefor daring to criticize the universe of George
    Lucas.

    Alas, After answering over 100 messages (something George Lucas would never
    do, if you wrote to him. Try it and see if he's even assigned a high level
    assistant to answer serious questions) - I am now simply too exhausted.

    My accusations on the moral plane are borne out in a NY Times interview when
    he openly disparaged democracy and praised dictatorship. He repeatedly
    claims these aren't "just movies" but are deliberate propaganda meant to
    spread his ethical and moral views. It's there in the open. He hates a
    civilization that's been very very good to him.

    Enough about that sad disappointment. On to better science fiction! ;-)


    With best wishes for a happy, successful 21st Century!

    David Brin
    www.davidbrin.com"

    [face_laugh]
  25. Palpateen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2000
    star 4

    MEMO TO: David Brin
    FROM: Another Anonymous Know-it-All on the net

    If I were a sci-fi writer and wanted my career to flourish Mr. Brin, I don't think I would go out of my way to upset the largest fan base of any contemporary media fiction of the last 30 years, Star Wars, (with a cordial tip of the hat as well to Tolkien, Star Trek, Dune and Harry Potter.)

    Your big mouth is probably one reason you've never been hired to write a Star Wars novel, which almost invariably outsell yours. Or is your over-wrought criticism an outgrowth of previous rejection for such an assignment?

    If you were a LOT smarter and shrewder Mr. Brin, you would congratulate George on his accomplishments, which are considerable, and briefly and diplomatically mention your criticism of it. As a grace note, you might mention that of course, since you are primarily an author and not a moviemaker, you realize that there are differences between the capacities of the novel vs. the silver screen to explore intellectual and philosophical concepts. You could cordially invite Star Wars fans into the world of written fiction, yours as well as others, to expand on their appreciation of sci-fi/fantasy fiction. As Ronald Reagan taught us self-deprecating humor has a charm that borders on the magical, so if you had ended your criticism of Lucas with a wry reference to "The Postman", such as "but what do I know about movies?, I wrote a book that led to one of Hollywood's biggest bombs, lol!" you would have endeared yourself to people, instead of them thinking you're a pompous, arrogant ass. David, you may have been gifted with intellect but you are definitely "public relations-challenged."

    And BTW, the reason Mr. Lucas doesn't generally have time to respond to fan emails, letters, phone calls and faxes, whereas you apparently do, is that the Lucas fan base is multi-generational, world-wide and numbers into the tens, possibly hundreds of millions. There aren't enough years in Lucas's life to respond to the many who would love to communicate with him.

    Your fan base on the other hand could probably fit into a greyhound bus.

    Ah hubris, dear Mr. Brin, the fault lies not in the Star Wars, but in yourself.
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