David Brin's commentary on AOTC and what it reveals...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kiki-Gonn, Sep 19, 2002.

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  1. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    The Postman, possibly the worst movie ever made, is 4 hours of Kevin Costner riding about on a horse, meeting random people and saying, "I'm the postman".
  2. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Twice, I tried to watch The Postman both times I fell asleep about ten minutes into the movie, woke up somewhere in the middle, waited in vain for something to happen, and fell asleep again.

    But I agree with much of what Brin wrote about AOTC. Many others have pointed out the flaw in Lucas's theory of "attachment." It doesn't make any sense. AOTC has no one for the audience to like, no one to identify with, no one to respect. Unlikeable characters behave stupidly and the bad guys win. That's AOTC in a nutshell.
  3. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I can't agree with that. I found Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace to be very likeable. Even Anakin at times. Jar Jar, R2, and 3PO had likeable qualities as well.

    Of course, it's just the way I feel about it.
  4. CuppaJoe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 4
    sr_speilbergo1
    said:
    Ree Yees--from a technical point of view you suck big time.


    I completely agree, speilberg. What is it with al these bashers? If you hate the movies so much than quit watching them!!!!


  5. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I'm not a big fan of bashers, and will defend the PT and all of SW until the day I die. However, I feel a gusher attacking a basher because of their points of view is no different than a basher attacking a film you may love, which doesn't make it a good thing.


    Am I kicked out of the gusher club now? :(

    8-}
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am not a gusher myself, merely an enthusiast. I agree what's the point of debate without opposing views?
  7. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not sure that I like any of the PT characters either. The Jedi are arrogant. Anakin is a whiney, spoilt brat. Padme is a selfish, egotistical, fashion accessory. R2 and threepio arent even in it.
  8. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    Just for the record, I thought Brin was referring to the novel The Postman, not the movie. Unless I'm mistaken the anti-Costner remarks really have nothing to do with this subject.


    I haven't read that particular book, but great books are commonly turned into horrible movies.



    EDIT: BTW, didn't this place used to have rules concerning flamers like "sr_speilbergo1"?
  9. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 6
    As far as gusher/basher etc. goes, the point here is that Brin should be neither.
    Us nonames on the net are free to be either.
    As a sci-fi author, Mr. Brin should have the professional courtesy to refrain from bashing someone else's work.

    That's my main point. The fact that his argument is based on insufficient research (as others have pointed out on several fronts) only adds irony to the amateurish display.
  10. CountBakufu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2001
    star 2
    I read the book (The Postman) and I didn't care for it. Tried watching the movie and turned it off 1/3 the way through and I don't normally that,except for The Avengers & Lost Souls...lol.
    I am a big sci-fi reader like Isaac Asimov and William Gibson and this guy didn't get it with this book but I am going to get another book and give it a day in court before I pass complete judgement.
    Alot of hardcore sci-fi fans of books, not movies, that I know do not like Star Wars for alot of the same reasons he writes about. It's an opinion, one I don't agree with but it's still an opinion.
    I imagine if Star Wars was based in a techno-babble, Utopian universe where problems are always solved like a game of chess then the opinions would be favorable. That's my
    opinion.
    Overall, don't let these people ruin your enjoyment of these films. If it's not their bag then it's not their bag.
  11. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Many others have pointed out the flaw in Lucas's theory of "attachment."

    There is no flaw in Lucas' theory of attachment simply because it is a theory that applies only to a fictional group of people and therefore has absolutely no bearing on the real world. If we possessed tremendous power that could be twisted and corrupted through manipulations of our attachments then I'd say a "no attachment" rule would not only be reasonable but necessary.

    I think if there is a real world lesson to be learned from the Jedi's "no attachment" code it's this: let go of those things you can't control. It's a basic but practical lesson.

    Back to Brin for a moment, I really can't take someone seriously if they only take the time to look at something just long enough to come up with basic questions but don't dig just a hair deeper to also find the answers. It's lazy and shows that he really didn't put any thought into this envious little tirade.
  12. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I think if there is a real world lesson to be learned from the Jedi's "no attachment" code it's this: let go of those things you can't control. It's a basic but practical lesson.

    So I wasn't the only to take that lesson from the whole "attachment" thing then. Its interesting how ignorant people can be so dismissive of such a lesson.
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Beyond that, he also made several errors when referring to the saga.

    It's unprofessional to critique something and not even do the basic research of the subject you're studying.
  14. guittarjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    Bashers and gushers united against a common foe! Hey David Brin,Michael Crichton can kick your a*s. 8-}
  15. wizard8 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 2
    I'll wait until Episode III before I judge whether or not the "attachments" thing was well illustrated.

    Right now, the Anakin character reaches out to the control freak in me.

    One day Anakin hoped to be the most powerful Jedi and hoped to have his mother there to witness him achieve his goal, to be proud of him, but something unexpected happened beyond his control.

    Or was it beyond his control?
    What if he had left the Jedi and went to Tatooine earlier? He could have saved her.
    Who's fault is it, the Jedi or his? After all, he could've left, nobody chained him down or cut the hyperdrive in his ship.
    However, he may have been kicked out of the order, and his mother let him go with Qui Gon to become a Jedi, to have a better life, and he would possibly be giving that life up.
    Still, there was a choice to be made there, and it doesn't seem as though Anakin is willing to take any responsibility for his choices, he quickly looks for someone else to blame, so far it's just Obi Wan.

    This is the start of his confusion that will eventually lead to his resentment for the Jedi.
    Anakin feels that he needs to put the blame on someone, which is a contrast from what Luke felt in ANH. The droids came looking for Obi Wan and this resulted in the slaying of Luke's Aunt and Uncle. They would've still been alive if it wasn't for the rebellion seeking out Obi Wan, but Luke doesn't put the blame on anyone, he realizes that it is all beyond his or anyone's control.
    Still, Luke's attachment to his Aunt and Uncle isn't as significant to Anakin's attachment to his mother.

    Anakin unleashed his hatred on the Tuskens but it didn't satisfy his anger.
    By the end of Episode III he will become the ulimate control freak, next to Palpatine of course.

  16. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    It is interesting to me that many have not heard of David Brin...makes me wonder if anyone actually READS anymore. Like Card, Brin is a very talented science fiction author, whose work has depth and breadth. And Postman was a book long before it was a film - a rather good book, IMO.

    I would suspect that, as someone posted earlier, Brin's review is the result of a mind that is focused more upon the "literary" realm, where one can explore great depth and intrigue behind the scenes... film does not lend itself to such intensity or richness of detail for the most part. A book can encompass much more in terms of events, points of view, past, present and future, internal thoughts and emotions, motivations etc. Film is a much more visual media and is therefore limited in how in-depth it can go with detail and exploration of multi- beneath the surface fascets.

    Even the "intrigue" of the Star Wars films is pretty straight forward... and no one would doubt that they stress visual extraveganza.
  17. Super_Nation_Jock Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 4
    I'm glad Kiki-Gonn started this thread. If someone else hadn't done it I was going to.
    I agree totally with the original post.

    I also have never heard of this guy before TFN put his article on the front page. Based on what he wrote, I don't think he's very bright about SW and constantly saying that Lucas "bowed" to pressure about things is pretty presumptuous on his part. In fact, you could probably call it a lie. How does he know how Lucas makes his decisions?

    I'll bet if I went up to 1,000 people on the street and said "have you read the latest book by David Brin?", NOT ONE of them would have the slightest idea who I was talking about.

    But I will give him credit, like a lot of people, he's figured out that if he SLAMS STAR WARS, he can get himself(read: LEECH) some cool free publicity, but in my case he is now enshrined in my head forever as a jealous cretin who thinks he's a lot smarter than George Lucas but has no way of proving it.

    How many sci-fi authors put their PhD next to their name? In Brin's case I think it stands for Pretty Hilarious Dumbass. David Brin's never made a movie in his life. What the hell does he know? OK, so he wrote the book that Costner's THE POSTMAN was based on?
    My God, that's one of the worst disasters in the history of Hollywood. Makes HOWARD THE DUCK look like TITANTIC.

    This guy is so dense about Star Wars that he is actually prompting me to do something I would have never dreamed of in a million years. I STRONGLY disagree with the many bashers that visit these boards, and I hate their negativity and think most of their criticisms are ridiculous, I will say this much for them, the bashers here at LEAST have knowledge and understanding of Star Wars. I'll give them that much credit.
    This guy Brin doesn't even have a good knowledge base on which to base his cheap shots. If you're gonna write your review Mr. Brin, at least be reasonably informed.

    Next time I see a joyful child playing with a lightsaber and exercising their imagination in the Star Wars universe, I'm going to interrupt him and say "Don't you know that David Brin, noted sci-fi author AND HOLDER OF A Phd, doesn't think Star Wars is all that great?" and I'll snap the kid's picture so I have a record of the blank expression on his face.
  18. wizard8 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 2
    Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that a heralded sci-fi writer would print something as ridiculous as the idea that Obi Wan and Anakin could secretly be plotting against the Emperor in the OT, and that Episode III should reveal this to redeem the PT.

    So what does that mean, that Anakin is actually a good guy all that time? Sure, he just stood there while the Emperor destroyed civilizations, blew up planets, and Vader would even choke a rebel here and there himself to save face. Oh, and blow up a few X-Wings, because it's all part of the plan.

    I'd really like to hear how the whole Obi Wan mortally injuring Anakin thing can be tied into this.

    Not to worry, of course, Lucas had said that in Episode III we will see Anakin do some "very bad things."

  19. newbie4000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2001
    star 1
    Next time I see a joyful child playing with a lightsaber and exercising their imagination in the Star Wars universe, I'm going to interrupt him and say "Don't you know that David Brin, noted sci-fi author AND HOLDER OF A Phd, doesn't think Star Wars is all that great?" and I'll snap the kid's picture so I have a record of the blank expression on his face.


    I think it would be more of an expression of fear and terror really. I know I would be scared if I was a young kid and rushed by a complete stranger/star wars fanatic with a camera.

  20. Super_Nation_Jock Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 4


    Newbie,

    Good grief, it would probably be a kid that knew me, and I only wrote that to illustrate a point, not because I literally planned to do it. Please, a little common sense.
  21. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    It's an interesting article. I do agree with a few of his points, but it basically ignores the fact that the movie despite the plot holes is still great entertainment.

    I agree that the TPM lacked a heroic character and deservedly received criticism for this point. It wasn't one of my favorite Star Wars movies and was surprised they didn't utilize the Obi-Wan character to fill this hole. I was shocked that this character was ignored for the most part since Obi-Wan is such a hugely important character to the whole series. I think most of us agree for the most part that TPM could have been better.

    I didn't buy his fix to the plot holes. Obi-Wan and Anakin are conspiring together to over throw both Sidious and Yoda? Makes me wonder how good the plots are in his books.

    As far as the contradictions and weak explanations, it's Star Wars since when has this stuff bothered us that much. We watch it for fun not for in depth Analysis of the Meaning of Life or Spirtual Awareness. And anyone who is looking for Campbellian type Arcs are going to be greatly disappointed.
    These characters are closer to Comic book characters rather than Arthurian heroes.

  22. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    would suspect that, as someone posted earlier, Brin's review is the result of a mind that is focused more upon the "literary" realm, where one can explore great depth and intrigue behind the scenes...

    No, the guy doesn't know jack about Star Wars.
  23. newbie4000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2001
    star 1
    "Good grief, it would probably be a kid that knew me, and I only wrote that to illustrate a point, not because I literally planned to do it. Please, a little common sense"

    I just found your previous post to be a personal attack on Brin. I mean who cares what he thinks. The guy is a PHD and he is a successful author. Just because you don't know who he is, dosen't mean the guy has some fiendish plot to bash Lucas in order to get publicity.

    Just to review some of your comments

    I STRONGLY disagree with the many bashers that visit these boards, and I hate their negativity and think most of their criticisms are ridiculous

    Lots of contradictions there...

    How many sci-fi authors put their PhD next to their name? In Brin's case I think it stands for Pretty Hilarious Dumbass.
    This guy is so dense

    Wow, thats a lot of hatred for a guy who you've never heard of, and simply wrote a movie review.



    That being said, I don't support all of Brin's opinions but I did find the article to be interesting.



  24. Primetime_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2000
    star 4
    This article was hilarious. It almost read as a joke. I wonder if TFN referenced it just so we could make fun of it.


    (Let's not even go into micro-illogicalities, like having CP30 work for 'Uncle Owen' for ten years... then later they won't recognize each other at all.)

    First, it's not CP30. Just a typo? Considering the rest of the article, probably not.

    Second, did Brin actually see the movie? Threepio was wearing junk coverings when we worked for Owen and when he left. The next time Owen saw him C3PO had his golden coverings. IOW, his appearance had completely changed!


    In a recent Time Magazine article, George Lucas explains the depressingly foreordained saga of Anakin Skywalker's slide into evil-demigodhood by saying: "He turns into Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother; he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you're greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you're going to lose things, that you're not going to have the power you need."

    Let's parse this out: a hero should NOT love mom or a sweetheart or a wife, or indeed, care about anything real... but wait. Doesn't Vader's ultimate redemption, in Return of the Jedi, happen because he allows himself to grow attached to his SON?


    Obviously, GL isn't teaching the first part of that last paragraph. The nature of a Jedi's life and career necessitates them being unattached and overly possessive of certain things. Anakin did, though, state that compassion and love were part of a Jedi's mandate.

    Concerning Anakin's possessiveness, he couldn't give up his mother after she died. He became enraged, filled with hatred, slaughtering men, women, and children. And who knows what else it did to his psyche later on? Justice is one thing, but he overstepped its boundries.

    Concering his "girlfriend", Padme did not really become Anakin's girlfriend until the end of AOTC when she confessed her love for him. This possessiveness must happen later. I believe GL's statement is a foreshadowing of Padme's death, which Anakin does not take well (understatement). Regardless of whether it happens in Ep.III or after, her death drives Anakin over the edge even further. His problem is that he just can't let go, and it drives him to madness.

    Concerning Anakin's redemption through his attachment to his son, this is called a healthy loving relationship (at least at the end), not an obssession. True love conquers all. It is ironic, though, that if Anakin had obeyed the code and not gotten married, Luke never would have been born at all, but then again maybe Anakin then wouldn't have turned.... But this demonstrates the sovereignty of a greater power, who works good through all situations.


    Out of the four Star Wars films that Lucas has directed,

    LOL! This is Lucas's THIRD film, not fourth. The dork doesn't have 5 minutes to look at the credits?


  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Edit: See top of next page.
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