David Brin's commentary on AOTC and what it reveals...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kiki-Gonn, Sep 19, 2002.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am personally attacking Brin. The guy has no scruples.

    I am sure he wrote some nice books, and I don't even mind the guy having a negative opinion about SW. But the facts he uses to base his claims are simply not accurate.

    1) He thinks Lucas is saying heroism is futile because of where the prequels are heading, but if he would just remember that there is a 2nd trilogy after it (one he has been picking apart for years now by comparing it to Nazi Propoganda) he would be able to see that in the end good and heroism DOES prevail.

    2) He claims Lucas is caving into pressure to have females represented in the Jedi Order in AOTC after not having any in Episode I, and there are 3 women on the Jedi Council in TPM.

    3) He assumes that because they use the term "Federation" Lucas is trying to slam Star Trek, and then proceeds to act like Lucas is jealous of that series. Lucas has always shown a great deal of respect for the series, citing it as one of his many inspirations.

    4) He flat out says that Lucas holds himself up as some sort of Cempbellian expert, when he has done nothing of the sort. I might mention that Brin himself admits to not understanding Campbells research, and pretends SW doesn't fit into a mythological category.

    I can not tell you his motivations for hating Lucas and SW, but I can tell you that he uses nothing but lies and deceit to paint it in the worst light imaginable.

    The fact that he publically considers SW inferior to his own work and portends to be able to "save" the SW saga with his own suggestion for a plot twist would be cute if he hadn't already compared the whole saga to "Nazi Propoganda".
  2. newbie4000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2001
    star 1
    Gomer, i'll have to agree with you there. The constant Nazi references were a bit much as well a number of his statements were not backed up.

  3. Rhane-1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 1
    I dunno, I think comparing Palpatine to Hitler, and the Empire to Hitler's Germany is actually a fairly legitimate thing to do. Of course, Brin did nothing of the sort, so never mind.
  4. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    Well, all things considered, I like my articles better.

    I just have to say ... I do not have anything against bashers or critics these days. I'm prepared to let them say whatever they want. But this ... its just like the last one ...

    Do you have any earthly idea how much time, research, and love I put into my articles on Star Wars, compared to this ... I don't even know what it is. Oh, mercy. I wouldn't even know how to reply to that ...

    Why oh why does this man insist on continuing to write about Star Wars? It's so horrible, so uninformed, so illiterate, it just gives me a headache to even read it.

    You have no idea how much money I would pay to watch some of my old English professors get into a debate with this guy.
  5. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4

    [face_laugh] @ JediHeretic47


    I would love for my 11 year old brother to take a shot at this guy. Even he knows more about Star Wars.

  6. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    I like to see Chris Matthews rip David Brin apart on his Hardball show.
  7. sr_spielbergo1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2002
    star 1
    I gotta defend the movie "The Postman" for a second. That was one of the most enjoyable movie watching experiences I've ever had. My friends and I made fun of it the whole time. Its hilarious. Ford Lincoln Mercury! Okay the movie sucks, but its fun to watch. Hell Tom Petty is a futuristic mayor. "You're famous!" "No, you are." Holy crap that scene is funny.
  8. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, The Postman would be and ideal candidate for the Mystery Science Theater 3000 show!
  9. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    Anyway, just stick around for my "To Be A Jedi" three parter coming in October. I will send a copy to Brin. I'm thinking about issuing him a challenge on my site, but it would probably be a waste.

    Say, did anyone see the Simpsons episode where Lisa was watching the DVD commentary of The Postman? And all it basically consisted of was Kevin Costner saying over and over, "I'm sorry. I am SO sorry."

    BTW, Brin told Starlog he thought the movie was excellent.
  10. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    "Say, did anyone see the Simpsons episode where Lisa was watching the DVD commentary of The Postman? And all it basically consisted of was Kevin Costner saying over and over, "I'm sorry. I am SO sorry."


    Yes. It's funny cause it's true.


    [face_laugh]

  11. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    "intend to boycott the latest episode, because of the deep moral and storytelling flaws that I found in Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace."


    Uhh sure...
    I read through that whole self congratualating 'aint I clever' load of rubbish. You know what saddened me most of all? The fact that he actually gave creedance to the BS 'racisim' claims (Where the **** did Boba call Jango "baba".. it was 'Dad'. Also, the clones were from New Zeland were'nt they?

    Well, to be honest, he takes such joy in being the ULTIMATE BASHER (and as in many basher claims, many of his remarks are based on pure heresay and conjecture) I can honestly say I really doubt I'll be picking up any of his books anytime soon. I can't concieve of this man doing any serious research into his books (fiction of other wise) as he sure as heck didn't seem to care about getting his facts straight for one 'review'.


  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    For what its worth he's a pretty nice guy.
  13. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    I wonder if....


    Maybe this Brin guy is actaully the guy who really truely created the entire Star Wars saga and story, George Lucas was his rival in High School and in fact stole his ideas from him, Brin had an entire story written out, and George stole the whole book, went through a lot of trouble to cover this up, so He changed a lot of plot points in the story so that it did not appear that he was in fact the one who stole Brin's idea. That is why Brin in fact knows far more then we do about the saga, the original Star Wars was supposed to be about nazis, and Anikin and Obiwan infact were going to conspire against Yoda and the Emporor. I can't believe George Lucas actually made the whole world beileve that he was in fact the creator.











    NOT!!!!

    IN fact, I knew more about Star Wars as a 9 year old boy in 1983 some 19 years ago then this guy does and I am sure he is older than me and he had 25 years of research to do.

    This man has no clue what he is talking about. It soudns to me like he rented the videos of the OT, and watched it in fast forward, sometimes stopping to listen to the words, then fast forwarding again, to get some vague idea of some aspects of the movies. He then had someone tell him what sort of happened in the PT so that he could write his article.



    who the heck is Brin anyway?

    Never heard of him.

    Oh I know,

    Boldy
    Rude
    Idiotic
    Nerd

    That in fact is what Brin stands for.

    And please dont tlel me this is flaming, becuase i really don't think he is on these boards, if he is , I apologize.

  14. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    I've been over at this philosophical chat filled with some of the best and brightest people I know, and we can't even tell if that was a real review or what. I have never seen anything that incoherent and erroneous in my life. At one point, he seems to just break out of the article and starts holding a conversation with himself.

    WTF?

  15. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    For what its worth he's a pretty nice guy.

    Nice guy or not, his "review" of Attack Of The Clones is nothing but a load of poorly researched inchorent rubbish conveyed with an obvious air of self-congratulatory envy.
  16. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I had emailed a response to Mr Bin and he responded back say He thinks Lucas thinks we are all sheep. Stupid. I just see jealousy. SW books are doing better then his books. Never even heard of him.
  17. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Wow. That's a pretty bold statement.

    Well, Star Wars fans, what do you think of that?


    Just from spending time on this board I can see that this is not true.


    Maybe he wishes he had his own flock.

  18. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I had emailed a response to Mr Bin and he responded back say He thinks Lucas thinks we are all sheep.

    Are you for real? Do you have the actual e-mail text as I am very curious what it actually says.
  19. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Boy this Brine guy must be one sick SOB. I bet he's just jealous and bitter of Lucas's #55 spot on Forbes. It's amazing what some people will do to make a name for themselves. It makes me physically ill.

    Hmmm... can't think of anything else derogatory to say. Guess I'll head to the guy's site now and read his article.
  20. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Here is the entire response:
    Your direct ad hominem insult, when I've never done likewise to you,
    establishes the tenor here.

    It's amazing how these articles of mine provoke sudden tsunamis of mail... a
    couple of hundred in a day, then nothing for a year, then another big wave.
    This round, to my amazement, the hate mail from SW fanatics is just 5%. 90%
    have been supportive. But it's a free country.

    Which is the crux, isn't it? In a NY Times interview when he openly
    disparaged democracy and praised dictatorship. It's there in the open. He
    hates a civilization that's been very very good to him. He repeatedly
    expresses contempt for the masses and says that he takes very very seriously
    his role in propagandizing his values.

    So it's not 'just a movie.' He has a message and I have a right to point
    out things about his message that I detest.

    I know that some of my readers are better people than I am. I listen. I
    answer my mail, even critical stuff.

    Try getting an answer from George Lucas, who thinks you are a sheep.

    With cordial regards,

    David Brin
    www.davidbrin.com




  21. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    He is even saying Lucas likes Dictatorship because of what Anakin said in ATOC. Is this BS or what? He intrprets this a what actuallt Lucas is thinking. Guy is completely bonkers.
  22. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5
  23. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Here is what I wrote him. Might not have been good. I was just blindly ranting:
    >Hey Brin,
    >
    >Your article on ATOC sucked. You missed the whole point of the movie. Like
    >you said it is just a movie. Good old popcorn fun. He created this the
    Star
    >Wars galaxy. Who said that humans act the same in this galaxy? Why should
    >have to make his movie's the way you want. Go see a Shakespeare play or
    >someything. Leave the Star Wars story telling to Lucas. He is doing the
    job
    >just fine. And if you remember this is the 2nd installment in a trilogy.
    >There is going to be holes which should be answered in the final film.
    Like
    >the Uncle Owens and 3PO thing. Lucas has said that he is going to let some
    of
    >those plot left up to the viewers imagination. Ever hear of memory
    wipes?uess
    >not. Oh well. You missed the point again of greast movie. Too bad. I
    loved
    >TPM by the way. Who said there always has to be a hero in every movie. ESB
    >did not have a hero. Lucas said Obi-Wan I TPM was developing character.
    And
    >he did defeat Darth Maul. Hero enough for me. And also Love AOTC.
  24. Vonn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    To add to my previous statements about Brin, I've also discovered other areas of ignorance.

    1) He claims TPM has no hero, and fault Lucas for not staying 100% to Campbell.

    My response: TPM DOES have a hero. In fact, it has TWO heroes! Brin seems to hate how Lucas makes Anakin fly into the control ship and accidentally blow it up. But this is NOT what makes Anakin a hero. Brin convenient forgets the ENTIRE POD RACE sequence! This is the scene where Anakin proves he is a hero, he risks his life to help COMPLETE STRANGERS! If this doesn't make him a hero in the dogma of Campbell, nothing will.

    But Padme is the other hero (or heroine). Anakin flew into the space battle by complete accident, but Padme clearly chooses to risk her life to battle for the safety of her people, this makes her the hero of the second act.

    Perhaps, Brin is sexist for assuming that the damsel in distress could never turn out to be the hero. That certainly is not unfounded accusation.

    2) Brin faults Lucas' plot for keeping Shmi on Tattooine, for not bringing her to Naboo and giving her a cushy life.

    My response: Brin must not know anything about government or he must completely not paid any attention to the dialogue of TPM.

    a) "The republic doesn't exist out" on Tattooine.

    Therefore, the Republic (ie the Chancellor and the Jedi) has no jurisdiction to use GOVERNMENT funds. Why can't the US liberate all the suffering people of the world? Answer: The US doesn't have have jurisdiction over the entire world. We can try to negotiate (but look what negotiation has accomplished). There are still human rights violations in the world today, and we can't do anything about it because it is not in jurisdiction (and also not in our interest).

    Brin shouldn't fault Lucas for painting SW in colors that reflect our own world. SW isn't a liberalist utopia, and Brin should get used to it.

    Besides, if someone did George W. Bush a favor, that doesn't give W. Bush the right to use his power of influence to help out the person's relative (oh wait a minute, that's what Clinton did with Marc Rich, and look at the flack Clinton is getting). In other words, there is no way Palpatine could get away with using his power to free someone's slave relative. So, come on, Brin. Live in reality, for crying out loud! You claim Lucas created a religion and a government that could not possibly work, yet what you are suggesting could never fly in the real world democratic system.

    b) "The biggest problem in this universe is that people don't help each other."

    Anakin said that statement referring to something Shmi told him. This should have also clued Brin into why no one came to Shmi's rescue, but Brin decides to ignore dialogue. Go figure.

    c) Anakin didn't meet any millionaires in TPM.

    If Anakin had met and help a rich person, then that person might have been able to personally put up the finances to free Shmi. But, unfortunately, he didn't. Padme was a democratically elected queen, but she's also 14. How much money does a 14-year old have (especially when the dealer doesn't accept republic credits)?
    Jedi knights are forbidden (by their code) attachments (to people, possessions, etc) because their encourage greed and create the fear of losing such attachments. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Qui-gon wasn't a millionaire either. But, regardless, Watto still didn't accept republic credits. So once again, we are back to the argument of who could have paid for Shmi's release? And even if Anakin did befriend a rich guy on Tattooine, "no one helps each other" in this universe. Seems to me that Lucas did cover his back on this one. Brin chooses to ignore it.



  25. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Here is what I wrote him. Might not have been good. I was just blindly ranting:
    >Hey Brin,
    >
    >Your article on ATOC sucked. You missed the whole point of the movie. Like
    >you said it is just a movie. Good old popcorn fun. He created this the
    Star
    >Wars galaxy. Who said that humans act the same in this galaxy? Why should
    >have to make his movie's the way you want. Go see a Shakespeare play or
    >someything. Leave the Star Wars story telling to Lucas. He is doing the
    job
    >just fine. And if you remember this is the 2nd installment in a trilogy.
    >There is going to be holes which should be answered in the final film.
    Like
    >the Uncle Owens and 3PO thing. Lucas has said that he is going to let some
    of
    >those plot left up to the viewers imagination. Ever hear of memory
    wipes?uess
    >not. Oh well. You missed the point again of greast movie. Too bad. I
    loved
    >TPM by the way. Who said there always has to be a hero in every movie. ESB
    >did not have a hero. Lucas said Obi-Wan I TPM was developing character.
    And
    >he did defeat Darth Maul. Hero enough for me. And also Love AOTC.

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