Debater

Discussion in 'Southern Nevada, NV' started by GersonSith, May 24, 2004.

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  1. GersonSith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 4
    Everyone likes to be right and everyone thinks their right. So I thought it might be entertaining to debate some things mostly because I really need something to keep me awake today and because I always regretted not joining the debate team in high school. So if you have a topic that is controversial or you know not everyone shares your opinion, voice it here and everyone can debate it. It should all stay civil of course, which means if you don't think you can keep your cool then don't post here. We all can still be friends and disagree, but we can't all be friends and insult each other. So someone come up with a topic and an arguement and we can proceed.
  2. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    Morality? Does it exist? Or is it simply a construct of man to control the masses?
  3. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    That's a good one. Why I like to think that I don't go out and murder people or rob the bank because it's not the 'right' thing to do. Yet if we all had these built in morals why do people go out and murder, steal etc on a daily basis. Is it because as a child I was told many a time not to do these things and the people that do them just didn't get this kind of treatment?

    Personally, I like to think we do have a moral compass, but we have emotions that are strong enough to override them. I know from personal experience that emotions have made me do things that at a later time I wonder why I did it. For example, you break your mom's favorite vase, the fear of getting in trouble overrides many people's moral compass that say's to tell the truth, so you lie.
  4. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly. I believe that morality is more a tool to control the masses than anything thats inherit in the human makeup.

    If people were always told that it was ok to hurt people than that would be the norm and not the adherance to some nebulous code of morality that seems to have different definitions when you cross cultural boundaries. That in of itself is proof it doesnt exist. If there was a true Moral code why would it change? Becuase diffferent cultures have taught their children thier moral code and not "the" moral code.
  5. MR-V1N Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 1
    >Why I like to think that I don't go out and murder people or rob the bank because it's not the 'right' thing to do. Yet if we all had these built in morals why do people go out and murder, steal etc on a daily basis. Is it because as a child I was told many a time not to do these things and the people that do them just didn't get this kind of treatment?<

    I think that it is much more basic then we really think, or would like to think. I'm a strong believer in that I think that most Human Beings just love to challenge the devil. The thrill of whether or not they can get away with it.
  6. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    I disagree with all that has been said. [face_not_talking]
  7. Jankarakk FanForce CR Southern Nevada FF

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2003
    star 4
    Morality is like the sub-conscious (sp?) mind....people say they exist....but I have yet to see proof of this.
  8. GersonSith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 4
    Morality is intended for us, but not inherent in us. Humans were originally created with the intention of being %100 moral, but were given the choice to continue in that morality. They chose not to, and therefore that direction has continued through the generations.

    However, there are some basic human laws that dictate what is right and what is wrong. As with everything having to do with people, there are of course exceptions and so some people have no real sense of right or wrong. Ultimatly it is a conscious choice we have to make to follow the "laws of morality" and those can differ from culture to culture. God designed us to have that choice and even though He has set down a small number of rules for us today, He knows not everyone will follow those rules.

    I'm sure that some statements in my post will bring forth some more topics to debate.
  9. Jankarakk FanForce CR Southern Nevada FF

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2003
    star 4
    i think you're right about other topics coming out of your statement....but that was a really good statement.
  10. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    You know you all really suck the fun out of debates. Once you bring God up as a reason I no longer have anything to contribute. Kinda hard when you dont believe in him and all. Protoss does that to me all the time. LOL.

    Lets just suppose that God isnt in the picture. Now tell whether or not morality actually exists.
  11. MR-V1N Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 1
    I never brought up God... Until now... Do I still suck up all your fun? lol
  12. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    Yeah, I am just getting used to axia and you will notice I avoided that realm in my answer.

    Morondude: In a debate you can't just say 'I disagree' give reasons why.

    Jankarakk: You don't have proof you exist? Then how do you interact with everything around you on a daily basis?

    Marvin: I don't really get your statement. People like to challenge the devil? Also, you say you didn't bring god into this but the devil/god aspects occur in most every religon filling the spaces of good/evil in everyday life. Not everyone believes in the devil, just as many don't believe in god.

    Gerson: As I stated above I have learned that religon has to be left out of alot of discussions because they are your beliefs. I told petra that one time and she said I couldn't do it. Watch me be stubborn and do it :)
  13. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    One thing that always gets me is that I have an unlimited capacity to think and question. Yet I wasn't given the ability to comprehend most of it. Since we are talking about god, if god created everything who created god ( I get this question alot it seems..)? I can think about it all day but I wont get an answer. Yet on the other hand, if there wasnt a god then everything appeared out of nothing? How can that be! What's nothing look like!

    Here is another one that has driven me up a wall. If god knows all, he must have known we would sin and not be perfect. Yet he still created us, why start something you know will fail?
  14. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    I disagree even more!

    Yep, I'm an awesome debater.
  15. Jankarakk FanForce CR Southern Nevada FF

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2003
    star 4
    I didn't say I dont' have proof that I exist...I said I don't have proof that morality and the sub-conscious mind exist. Morals is an unwritten set of rules that people should follow...The sub-conscious is just a theory made up by scientists. Also to touch base on one of your questions: God is omnipotent...meaning always is and always was. Sir Francis Bacon disproved the theory of Spontaneous Generation (the theory that something can come from nothing).
  16. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    If god knows all, he must have known we would sin and not be perfect. Yet he still created us, why start something you know will fail?


    I think I'll take this one.

    First of all, I'm not really into thinking that God KNOWS what I'm gonna do. I still like to think I have a little something called free agency, but I digress.

    Yes, God knew we would sin. In fact, he counted on it. Remember Adam and Eve? They would still be stuck in the Garden on Eden to this day had they not sinned. They were supposed to sin so they could progress. The evidence:

    1. The only Law God gave Adam and Eve was "Do not partake of the fruits from the Tree of Knowlege (or Life)" This is a pretty much cut and dry rule, unlike most other rules in the world.

    2. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve never aged, nor would ever die. They also could not have children. In fact, their brains were so primitave, they couldn't understand the ideas of shame or modesty (indicated when they were cast out of Eden and they both realized their nudity and were humiliated.)

    3. Without original sin, the human population of the world would be two, they would still live in the Garden of eden and the rest of the planet would be wasted, and they never would have evolved past their primative senceabilities.

    So, God knew that we would sin, and counted on it. That is why the idea of a Messiah was so important. Humna nature is to sin, and we need a redeemer to get rid of the sins we will all commit.

    As for Why God would create us knowing that we would sin, it's pretty simple. God wants to know that his creation will still come back to him even if they get a taste of evil. I don't think God wants a bunch of Yes Men. He wants a group of dedicated people who will think for themselves and still obey God's will, to choose to be good rather than evil. I mean, how easy would it be for God to just force us all to obey. I think that is well within the realm of his power.
  17. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    Jankarakk:
    "God is omnipotent...meaning always is and always was. Sir Francis Bacon disproved the theory of Spontaneous Generation (the theory that something can come from nothing). "

    The problem with your statement is that why couldn't everything have always existed? Could you link me to somewhere that has that theory explained.

    Morondude: Well, as usual we have conflicting views on god, if he doesn't know everything then he can't be god in my book.

    As for you last statements, I think alot of people don't believe in god because of things like that. To think that he created us and let us fall into sin and just hopes that some of us will see the light is a horrible thought. I wouldn't go have 10 kids and then let drug dealers, prositutes and the sins of the world into my home. Then let those sins influence my kids while I sat back and didn't do anything.

  18. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    I would continue to respond but my belief system is too contrary to most here and I don't want to offend anyone. :)
  19. GersonSith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 4
    Axia: I think we can all agree that morality doesn't exist within us, but something outside of us that we're taught and try to follow. Unfortunately, I can't see how its possible to take God out of anything, but I am genuinely facinated with people who say there is no God. That would probably mean you believe in evolution, or some other way Earth came to be. Perhaps we can discuss that. I seriously want to know why you can say that you know for sure that there is no God. I'm not attacking you here, I have a genuine interest in your thoughts on this.

    Protoss: I just want to make it known that to me, religion and God are entirely opposite.

    Morondude: Honestly, I think you're answer there is very close to what I would say, except that I don't think God really wanted them to sin. I have come to believe that God knows everything that has happened, has the power to make things happen now, but chooses not to. I know He has laid out a plan for each of us, but we don't always follow through with it. Because He has given us free will, I don't think He knows what CAN happen depending on our choices. There are some things that happen I'm sure He doesn't want to happen, but He turns them around for ultimate good. But He does make sure we are heading towards the plans layed out in Revelation.


  20. JadeRose Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2004
    Wow! My first real post, and it's in a debate thread. This goes on the list of things I never thought would happen. So hey, hello everyone. Don't take this too personally; just a bit of a rambling thought in response...


    Ok, so here's my basic thought- a bit away from other comments, but hey...it works.

    Morality must exist, and I think it is a little bit more than something outside ourselves. My basis for that idea is that many cultures have come up with regulations that are fairly similar; it can't just be because it makes the most financial sense, or basic sense. SOME form of morality exists, and is omnipotent: such as the fact no culture I can think of actually supports cold-blooded murder.

    Wherever this "common ideal" comes from, it is obvious that morality is in existance in at least a very basic form- not just because it is socially acceptable, but because some "moral fiber" was passed from prehistoric man to us.

    -JadeRose
  21. Talon_Wolfe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 4
  22. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    Hi jaderose :)

    Gerson: What I am trying to get at is that for you it is different, but from the perspective of people who don't believe what you believe there isnt a difference.

    EDIT: One other thing to add was that I noticed you and morondude both go along the lines of 'we have free will and so god doesn't know exactly what is going to happen'. For me if he doesnt know everything exactly then he can't be god.
  23. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    Okay I hope I dont offend anyone here. I am not attacking anyone's beliefs. I am simply stating my own beliefs or disagreeing (not attacking) yours. Ok here goes


    Jans argument about unable to prove he exists is valid. His experiences and interactions with other people are not a validation of his existence. all those could be a figment of his, or better yet, some one else's existence. And you can't use your consciousness and self awareness as an argument to the contrary becuase you have no way of proving to him or anyone else that you actually exist to him.

    Protoss: My disbelief in god is not a choice as one of your previous statements might lead some to believe. I dont believe in god becuase of my free will. That and the fact that there is no proof he exists. I dont believe in Vampires either, bummer becuase vampires are cool. I also find it interesting that you argue against the fact of spontaneous creation and use god (an entity that just has always been there according to your beliefs) as a basis for that argument.

    Morondude: "their brains were so primitave, they couldn't understand the ideas of shame or modesty" Shame or Modesty are not inherit to our makeup either. Ever seen a kid run around naked? The human form is nothing to be ashamed of. These are also a learned behavior from our provincial society.

    Gerson "but I am genuinely facinated with people who say there is no God. That would probably mean you believe in evolution, or some other way Earth came to be." Okay Gerson (please remember these are just my views, beliefs. I am not attacking anyone here. If your faith gives you strength then I envy you). I am just as genuinely fascinated by people who do believe in god. I fail to understand how generation after generation continue to believe in this entity that there is no proof of, none, zip, nada. I understand that children are raised in religious families and brought up to believe in god. I was, but at some point I began to question things for myself. Where is there proof? How can one achieve faith of something that there is absolutely no quantifible proof in? Yes, I realize thats what faith means but someone, somewhere told you about god and you believed. Why? If I told you I was kidnapped by aliens and just asked you to have faith that it did, in fact, occur, would you? No. So anyone telling me that god exists isn't enough.

    Af far as what I believe about the creation of the earth... I don't know. That is too big of a cosmic mystery for my small, human, finite, brain to handle. and I am ok with that. Im not meant to understand the universe. Perhaps the universe itself is the omega and alpha that most people assign to thier deity of choice. Perhaps it simply, always was. See, its my belief that most humans trapped in thier mortal bodies need to have purpose to thier lives and the universe at large. Belief in god gives that to them without them necessarily needing to understand that purpose. "God works in mysterious ways" and "faith". These answer the questions as to "why" without answering them. Why did that little girl have to die? Have faith. She's in a better place now and God works in mysterious ways. People can take comfort in these things for life's unanswerable questions. I can't. I don't believe in god. There is no "plan" for the universe. Its nothing but chaos.

    Again, not an attack, just my views. I have the utmost respect for what people believe in. (baring interference in what others believe) I have nothing like that to draw strength from.

    There ya go Gerson, that should spark a post or two
  24. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    Ever seen a kid run around naked?


    I have a 5 year old nephew... When is he NOT naked?!?
  25. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    Axia: Maybe you read my post wrong, the first part was a quote from jan's post. I was argueing for spontaneous creation. If god created everything what created god question.

    Your free will allows you to make choices. Everything in life is a choice, there isn't anything that isn't a choice of some kind. So I can't understand what you mean when you say that your disbelief in god isnt a choice? That's like saying my belief in god isnt a choice.

    Morondude: You realize you are helping to prove yourself wrong? What Axia is saying is that young kids will run around naked because they don't see any shame in it. They are told by adults that wearing clothes is the right thing to do.

    Gerson: As I posted above, the eternal question that we can't answer is "If god created everything then what created god?" As I posted a couple posts up and Axia has again pointed out, I can think up anything but I can't comprehend most of it.
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