Debater

Discussion in 'Southern Nevada, NV' started by GersonSith, May 24, 2004.

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  1. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    JadeRose: Most cultures don't support murder yet it happens on a daily basis all over the world. Why? In Nazi Germany they where brought up to hate jews, the KKK are brought up hate blacks. Where is the morality in these people?
  2. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    You realize you are helping to prove yourself wrong?


    Unlike some people, it doesn't bother me to be proved wrong. ;)
  3. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    I doesnt bother me to be proved wrong either but I am not gonna help to prove myself wrong
  4. GersonSith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 4
    Protoss: I don't know how God works exactly, and I don't know if I'm right, but I think that God knows everything that can happen. Its like you're walking down a road and come to a fork where there are 5 differnent ways to go. I believe God knows exactly what will happen if you go down each of those roads, but gives you the choice of which to take, but He knows which is the best to take and asks you to choose that one. Then as soon as you start down a path, He knows whats going to happen. I think that might explain it a little better. He's still an omniscient God and still gives us choices.

    Axia: These are the questions I had after reading your response. What proof are you looking for? What proof do you have that God does not exist? How can we as people not be important, and Earth itself not be important?
  5. Inaen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 3
    Hey yall, I havent posted in a while but when i got on today and saw this thread, I was instantly interested. (thanks Gerson for starting it!!).

    To answer Axia's question. (oh and also this is not to step on toes or cause bad feelings, great first topic Axia.)

    *Morality. Does it exist? Or is it simply a construct of man to control the masses?*

    I know that morality does exist. It exists in the mind of every person. Morality (or lack of morality)is all about perception. The morality of a person or people is judged in the mind of the person or people perceiving the act in question. I see morality as a quality of behavior according to authoritive, majority and/or common belief in an attempt to maintain harmony among common man. Dictionary.com says it this way:

    1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
    2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
    3. Virtuous conduct.
    4. A rule or lesson in moral conduct.


    But personal morality (even collective morality) cannot stand in of itself, nor can it be consistant without a canonical source that remains a constant over time. For we all forsake morality at times for human emotion or personal motive disregarding possible repercussions and perceive we are right in doing so. Even when it is hurting others by their perceptions and/or personal morals. Maintaining that pattern would end society as we know it. (The story Lord of the Flies is one possible example, what one tribe percieved as morally acceptable conflicted with what the other tribe perceived as morally acceptable and war insued.)

    With a central source by which a society's morality is realized (be it whatever central source it is, Torah, Bible or whatever) some societal harmony is possible. Countries base their laws on these canons. The U.S. was an example. The U.S. has since changed its basis for its laws and no longer is considered a "chirstian" country. Now a society with a canonical source as the authority on what is right and wrong leaves no room for interpretation or perception which could've been influenced by motive or emotion and places a consequence on any disadherence.

    So yes, morality does exist and I believe morality is necessary for the longevity of any people or nation.





  6. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    Gerson: Using your example of walking down a path and I come to a fork in the path with 5 possible paths. God must know what path I will choose, before I make the choice he must know it, if he doesnt then his power is limited and he can't be god.
  7. Inaen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 3
    The topic still is morality right? The subject of morality by itself is not related to one religion or God so lets just stay on that subject till we finish and then start another topic. (just trying to keep us on topic here.)
  8. GersonSith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 4
    Well I think there are topics all over the place, but maybe we should take them one at a time.
  9. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    Morality: For the birds.


    NEXT TOPIC!
  10. Inaen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah, one at a time, So which do ya wanna do next?
  11. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    Gerson: In my mind, you as a believer are the one required to prove to me he exists. See you have faith that god exists. I do not. There is no evidence that he does exist. Is that proof he doesnt exist? I will admit it isn't. Its very hard to prove that someone doesnt exist becuase they arent there. However, I know of no one that can quantify he actually exists. You believe in him. You prove he exists. I cant prove to you he doesnt exist. (unless I suddenly develop the ability to exist in all points of reality at the same time) If he does than you can prove he does. Good luck BTW.

    Protoss: I dont understand your take on God. If he knows absolutely everything you've done, are doing and will do then your life has no meaning. I assume that those of you who believe in god have the ultimate goal of getting to heaven or vahalla or whatever you call it. Right? If that is true and god knows everything you're going to do, he knows whether or not you'll make to heaven. So whats the point in living for the next 50-60 years if "he" already knows if your getting in? And dont be just argumentative Protoss, answer my question.
  12. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    Next topic coming, give me a sec
  13. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    Axia, on Protoss' view of God, we pretty much agree, which is weird, because on the point of God we disagree.
  14. Axia_Euxine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2003
    star 4
    Does debate have any real purpose? Can you recall one time in your life where one of your opions or tastes was changed by debate?
  15. Inaen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 3
    no.....not really.....



    wow, that was a short topic..next one please?

    J/k

    debating is usually fruitless and meaningless...thats why politicians do it. :)
  16. GersonSith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, fruitless and meaningless, exactly like my job. But debating is more fun, which is why I started this topic, at work ironically.
  17. Inaen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 3
    how about this topic.

    was america right in invading Iraq and occupying it up to this point?
  18. Jankarakk FanForce CR Southern Nevada FF

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2003
    star 4
    I personally believe that we've overstayed our welcome in Iraq. Although some people I know feel that we've done what we needed to do by getting Hussein outta there, so now we can all come home. But I feel that as long as there are people who are opposing our soldiers then we still need a presence there, because those people will cause nothing but problems in the redevoloping of the Iraqi government.
  19. Protoss72000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 3
    Axia: I do believe that, he does know where I will end up heaven/hell already. I am not sure what you mean by why live the next 50 years. I am getting to heaven/hell because the of the path I will take, he just already knows it ahead of time.
  20. Talon_Wolfe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 4
    before the next topic hits, I want to sound off on the whole Ominscience of God and Free Will thing:

    1. If you say that God exists, then I will assume that you imply God to be not just another human being, but the figure that has the powers largely attributed to Him: omnipotent (all powerful), omnipresence (everywhere), omniscience (knows everything)... etc.

    2. With that in mind, clearly, these are concepts that the human mind has not experienced, and has not fully grasped. Those powers, and what those entail we can only begin to imagine. But, being the curious humans we are, we definitely give it a shot...

    3. Keeping the above in mind, we must remember to not let the bias of the perspective of our human existence allow us to contrain God into a neat package that our human minds can understand. What this means is that we cannot assume that God obeys the laws of nature that we must obey. We must abide by the laws of physics; He does not have to. We must exist in a chronological, linear timeline, moving in one direction; He does not have to. We must die; He does not have to...

    If you believe in God as the Creator, whether that be by evolution over 70 million years, by instantaneous generation over 7 days, or something in between, you must also believe He created everything else to go with it. Everything else like the linear timeline, physics, science, math... what not. Every truth we discover about these things therefore is part of His larger truth: All Truth is God's Truth. What we discover is just what we have seen by picking up the corner of His immense rug. What we will yet discover in the next 10, 100, 1000 years will still be part of His truth, and the way He hardwired everything to work.

    All that to say this: God respects the universe he created and the laws he put in place to govern it. We exist within that framework, and he respects that. He exists not only here in that framework, but outside of it as well (Omnipresence). He doesn't have to obey the laws that we have to live by, since he created them. He is the Great GM, so to speak (Omnipotent). And remember one of the first rules of RPG's: If the GM does it, it's not cheating :)

    Ultimately, he knows everything (omniscience). Do we have free will? Of course. But God knows what choices we will make, because he does know the future, and he also exists outside of the timeline that we exist in. He very well could be seing what you are doing tomorrow or next year the same way he sees what you are doing now.... as well as seeing events that have happened in the past.

    Difficult to comprehend? Of course. If you use the Bible as your source material, it implies that time does not exist as we know it in Heaven. How can we then ascribe and understand the nature of what God can or cannot do when we are doing so through the lens of the bias of the perspective of our human existence? All we know is linear time that moves forward... yet we try to understand a being who is timeless, and does not abide by these rules....



    Okay, I am done. Hopefully, that was not too confusing.


    Edit: by the time I was done typing this, you guys were already talking about Iraq. Sorry!
  21. Jankarakk FanForce CR Southern Nevada FF

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2003
    star 4
    I applaud your response TW. But then of course...you should be used to answering questions such as these seeing as how you make your living and all is by doing His work.
  22. Talon_Wolfe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 4
    well, if you know me, you know I love sci fi, and have loved it all my life. So imagine the questions I used to ask in theology class. (and the looks I would get from other students) ;)
  23. Jankarakk FanForce CR Southern Nevada FF

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2003
    star 4
    I feel great pity for your former instructors lol.
  24. Luminara_Jade Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2004
    star 4
  25. MR-V1N Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 1
    >Here is another one that has driven me up a wall. If god knows all, he must have known we would sin and not be perfect. Yet he still created us, why start something you know will fail?<

    If there "IS" a God, I don't believe that God is perfect. Perfection, in my opinion, dosen't exist. There are flaws. Watch, Star Trek TOS "Nomad", the robot that claims to be perfect. You'll notice that Kirk discoveres a flaw with the robot. I like to believe that it is our flaws that God views as perfect... as long as we are able to learn from our own mistakes, and concider the mistakes of others as a form of guidance, to better ourselves, who's to say that imperfection is perfection.
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