Debunking plot holes

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by bswb, Jun 2, 2005.

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  1. bswb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    I've seen too many reviews where people repeat the same supposed plot holes that aren't actually plot holes. So I wanted to make a thread to capture these, debunk them, and then I'll put together a helpful webpage so we can all point out how silly these people are.

    Help me out team!

    1) Why doesn't Vader recognize R2D2 in the original trilogy?

    -Vader doesn't actually interact with R2D2 other than flying by him on the battle of Yavin.

    2) Why doesn't Vader recognize C3PO in the original trilogy?

    -The only time Vader sees C3PO is when 3PO is on the back of Chewbacca in pieces. Yes, he still has the distinctive whiny voice, but consider there's Han being frozen, soldiers everywhere, Lando, Lobot, Ugnauts, steam, loud machines, and poor lighting, plus the fact that all protocol droids look pretty much the same in the SW universe, it's not surprising that Vader didn't give 3PO a second glance.

    3) Isn't Ewan McGregor too young to play Obi-Wan?

    -Technically, yes. McGregor was in his early 30s when he filmed Episode 3. Guiness was in his early 60s when he filmed Episode 4. There's a difference of about 30 years.

    Now take into consideration that with makeup and the beard, do you buy Episode 3 Obi-Wan as between 35-40 years old? Do you think Episode 4 Obi-Wan looks between 55-60? Add in the fact that Obi-Wan's been hanging out in a desert for 20 years, and it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue.

    4) How does the Death Star take 18 years to build when the second one only took around 5-7?

    -First off, remember the second Death Star is only halfway built in ROTJ. Second, ask any engineer and they'll tell you that it's much easier to build something the second time around - you learn from your mistakes, you streamline processes, you've already got materials hanging around.

    So let's look at it this way. If the Empire took 18 years to build the first Death Star (between Episodes 3 and 4), they probably would have started construction (or at least planning) on the second one around or shortly before the events of Episode 4. If 7 years take place between the beginning of construction of Death Star 2 and its destruction in ROTJ, and considering the fact that it's really only halfway done (even though the gun is operational), that means the full DS2 will be done in about 14-15 years. That seems entirely plausible considering how building something is easier the second time around.

    5) Why does Leia remember Padme but Luke doesn't?

    -Um, don't got a good answer to this one. In the original script, Padme and Leia lock eyes and smile at each other and that is supposed to be their moment of connection. That was cut from the final edit.
  2. DarthTickle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 1
    "-Um, don't got a good answer to this one. In the original script, Padme and Leia lock eyes and smile at each other and that is supposed to be their moment of connection. That was cut from the final edit."

    That little tiny gesture would have made me so much less confused! Why didn't they end up filming it?
  3. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    Well, supposedly, in the movie, Leia's eyes are open, and Luke's are closed, which is supposed to explain Leia's 'memories'.


    I'm also sick of the 'plot holes' that people seem to come up with. It does get rather annoying after a while. :)
  4. kingthlayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2003
    star 4
    bswb - been reading Entertainment Weekly? I threw it down in disgust recently.

    Anyway, there's often gripes about how how Owen doesn't recognize C3PO, but ousley once said that droids are equated as toasters in the GFFA. If your friend, twenty years ago, had a silver toaster, would you assume it was the same toaster as the gold one you now own, just because the brand was the same? Probably not. It's doubtful Owen even remembered 3PO in the first place.
  5. stinrab Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 5
    bswb posted on 6/2/05 3:13pm 2) Why doesn't Vader recognize C3PO in the original trilogy?

    -The only time Vader sees C3PO is when 3PO is on the back of Chewbacca in pieces. Yes, he still has the distinctive whiny voice, but consider there's Han being frozen, soldiers everywhere, Lando, Lobot, Ugnauts, steam, loud machines, and poor lighting, plus the fact that all protocol droids look pretty much the same in the SW universe, it's not surprising that Vader didn't give 3PO a second glance.

    />

    Not to mention Vader prevents Boba Fett from shooting him.


    ---
    Here's a bit of a plothole I can't get my head around: In the opening space battle, why doesn't Obi-Wan or Anakin just use the force to push the buzz droids off their ships?/>/>
  6. Crow_T_Robot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 3
    And with the Death Stars, if you wanna go by EU, then the Death Star being built in ROTS could be the prototype Death Star, which was only really a frame anyway, and not the one from ANH.
  7. bswb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    Here's another annoying one that one of my basher friends brought up. How can they be so thoroughly versed in Star Wars and still ask stupid questions like this?

    Why doesn't Chewie know what's going on with Luke if he helped Yoda way back when?

    -Um, cause Chewie fought in a battle during the Clone Wars. He didn't train with Yoda, he didn't meditate with Yoda, he probably didn't even chat with Yoda that much. Yoda was the leader of an army that Chewie trusted. The army turned on Yoda. Chewie and Tarful helped him out. That's it. I doubt Yoda gave Chewie any "Luminous beings" speeches while directing the joint wookiee/republic forces on Kashyyyk.
  8. Spare_Parts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    Here's a bit of a plothole I can't get my head around: In the opening space battle, why doesn't Obi-Wan or Anakin just use the force to push the buzz droids off their ships?

    Maybe the force push would have been stopped or rebounded by the glass. I always imagined force push as a solid wall of air that smacked into the first thing it contacts.

    Maybe they were too busy using the force to sense and dodge incoming fire

    Maybe to show Anakin's exceptional piloting skills as mentioned in ANH

    Maybe buzz droids have magnetic feet which allow them to cling on to spacecraft in the first place

    Maybe it?s more entertaining to not go the easy route

    Maybe because they needed both hands to fly their ships so they couldn?t do the force push motion with their hands :p

    Maybe they needed a way to kill R4 to make him the most tragic character of the saga :p


  9. beedubew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 2
    I am sorry. I really do love ROTS and the whole saga. Although I have moved past the minor irritations from the movie, each time I hear an explanation brings back my feelings.


    First, from the time of A New Hope to the destruction of DS2 I thought 4 years went by. It is never said anywhere, but I feel the ROTJ opening crawl implies it, but I don't think construction began on DS2 until after DS1 was destroyed. So, it is 18 years vs. 4 years. Watch ROTJ again, it is far more than 50% completed. The fact that a prototype takes longer to build than subsequent units is true. Perhaps even true enough to justify more than 4 times as long since DS2 wasn't fully completed. However, the failure of the prototype argument, IMHO, is that the DS2 was NOT the same thing as DS1 and therefore DS1 isn't the prototype for DS2. DS2 was more than twice the size of DS1. DS2 had a superior primary weapon that could target on a starship scale. DS2 had a better power generator allowing it to fire multiple shots in quick succession. Also, had it been fully completed, the "small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port" problem had likely been corrected.

    Sorry for bringing this up again as I know I have in the past.


    Bee
  10. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    "Anyway, there's often gripes about how how Owen doesn't recognize C3PO, but ousley once said that droids are equated as toasters in the GFFA. If your friend, twenty years ago, had a silver toaster, would you assume it was the same toaster as the gold one you now own, just because the brand was the same? Probably not."

    How many toasters talk and have a distinct personality? :p ;)
  11. bswb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    DS2 was more than twice the size of DS1. DS2 had a superior primary weapon that could target on a starship scale. DS2 had a better power generator allowing it to fire multiple shots in quick succession.

    I wasn't aware of this. Ok, um, maybe Geonosians work really slow and they hired faster contract workers like they stated in Clerks. ;)

    Though seriously (or as serious as you can get debating the construction of the Death Star), if DS2 had all of those improvements, I gotta think they would have started preliminary plans to build it way before ANH. I just can't see the Emperor saying, "Despite the destruction of the Death Star, we will build a new one. Bigger. Stronger. More powerful. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

    He's got more foresight than that. :p
  12. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Doesn't Threepio introduce himself to Owen? Or not. If he doesn't, it's not really a huge plot hold - protocol droids all look pretty much the same.

    If he introduces himself, it's a plothole. Plus, you'd think seeing Threepio and Artoo together would jog SOME memory. I think he could recognize them and just doesn't mention anything - especially because he says he's going to have their memories wiped.

    There's really no way to explain around that one, I'm afraid.


    Another buzz droid problem - the Jedi don't wear sealed flight suits - why not rip open the cockpit?[face_thinking][face_laugh]
  13. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    Re: Owen and C3P0

    Not one seems to mention this BUT....the last time Owen and C3P0 were together in AOTC, C3P0 had those STEEL BLUE coverings. In ANH, when the two meet again, C3P0 is all GOLD n' SHINY!

    It's not much of a stretch to beleive that Owen did not recognize 3P0 when he didn't EVEN look the same. Compound that with the fact that there was a 20 year span and I get the feeling that Owen doesn't give two ***** worth of concern for droids anyway!!!


    Watch the language, please.
  14. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 6
    Great idea for a thread. There are far more stupid, psuedo plot holes than real ones. And, BTW, all sagas have plot holes.

    HERE IS THE KEY: When you're making a movie (writing a book etc.), your job is to tell a good story, not explain every possible little continuity thread imaginable. There are plenty of times you could explain something with an extra scene but don't because it would bog the story down. Pacing is of primary importance. Imagine the saga if you inserted a scene for every one of these. Yeah, it'd be great to have every little thing tied up but not at the expense of making the movies long and stilted.

    So...

    -Owen recognizing 3PO? Not a big deal to me at all. It's been twenty years, he looks different and I doubt every droid in the entire universe has a unique voice. Maybe in the back of his mind he wondered if it could possibly be the same droid. That does NOT mean you have to insert a scene about it.

    -Obi-Wan and the droids. Why doesn't he recognize them in ANH?
    Maybe he does recognize them but keeps his thoughts to himself. After all, he is hanging out with Anakin's son for crying out loud. I think he's got bigger things on his mind than... "Hey, weren't you Padme's domestic droid back on Coruscant?!"

    Same with Chewie... didn't he recognize Obi-Wan as a Jedi in ANH? Ya, probably. So what? Maybe he talked to Han about it in between the scenes we saw. "Dude, that's the first Jedi I've seen since I hung out with Yoda at the battle of Kasyyyk." It wasn't really pertinent to the story in ANH.
  15. beedubew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 2
    bswb, that is exactly what the Emperor does though. Builds a new death star - bigger, stronger, etc. this is the stuff of good debate (as good as can be for a fictional universe). Clerks (along with all Kevin Smith movies) has a great tribute to Star Wars....


    [ROTJ Opening Crawl] Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy...[/ROTJ Opening Crawl]

    It isn't conclusive, but it sure implies that they only recently (i.e. after the first was destroyed) started construction.

    Also, how does the construction of a second Death Star impune the Emperor's foresight? Couldn't his construction of this Death Star been solely for the purpose of drawing the Rebellion's military out of hiding to one final battle? I believe he says that somewhere. ;) His only lack of foresight came from Vader turning on him for the love of his son.

    It should also be mentioned that I am among the many that think Palps (while damn smart and full of foresight) gets a little too much credit for stuff.

    People are hung up on why Owen doesn't remember 3PO. Perhaps his memory would have been jogged had 3PO showed any sign of remembering him. I think there is plenty to justify his not recognizing 3PO

    EDIT: clarity and second point.
  16. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    1) Why doesn't Vader recognize R2D2 in the original trilogy?

    When did Vader even see R2-D2?

    2) Why doesn't Vader recognize C3PO in the original trilogy?

    A. If it bugs the Hell out of you, Vader stopping Fett gives you a window out to happy land. I'm sure future viewers will think that was intentional all along.

    B. He sees 3PO in peices and covered by a wookiee. If he recognized him, why would he care? What would the line be? 'He, Fett. See that droid? My wife, the one I killed you know? Yeah, I gave her that droid. Neat huh? Anyway, back to freezing fly-boy.'

    3) Isn't Ewan McGregor too young to play Obi-Wan?

    No? Guiness was in his 50s during ANH. Ewan in his thirties. There's twenty years between. 30 + 20 = 50. Neat huh?

    4) How does the Death Star take 18 years to build when the second one only took around 5-7?

    Okiedokie. If you can't sleep at night over this one, here y'go.
    What was completed on Death Star II? We saw half the outside. A completed reactor. Completed control room-turned-throne-room. A completed hangar. A completed reactor shaft. A completed turbo-lift. Completed weapons system and subsequent control rooms(which Palpatine had strict orders to be operational).
    We know that the shields weren't working. They needed a separate source. We know a service shaft to the core wasn't complete. On the completed sections of the shell, we saw many many incomplete patches. We saw that the equatorial belt wasn't completed even in it's completed sections.
    We can safely assume the following. It had no propulsion drive. Many many many corridors were unfinished. An astute lack of turbo lifts. No detention cell blocks. No conference rooms (what would they confere about?). We have no idea if the tractor beams were working or not. If not, no big huge bottomless tractor beam shafts.
    What was completed, was completed in approximately five years on a 'complete these parts on time or else' basis. They had approximately a quarter of the thing complete. Three more quarters gives us the alloted twenty more years needed to complete the rest (which was twice as big as the first).
    Now, the Death Star we see at the end of RotS was very very skeletal. Sideous had the plans at the end of AotC. It could've began construction at any point in the Clone Wars. The war being over, and Palpatine still delicately taking over the galaxy, work on this secret project would crawl along. ANH shows us that even Vader still had to deal with the Senate (which fans simply never consider) so the hold on the galaxy still wasn't to the point where Vader nor the army or navy could just dance anywhere they wanted (another fact no one ever deals with, including the EU). With the Senate gone, now the Sith could party and had orders to screw anyone who looked at you cross-eyed. Hence the Death Star could be rolled out (it could've been completed a handful of years from the start of ANH. In fact, considering it was fully manned and polished, it probably was ready for quite some time. So, knock a few more years off the twenty year timestamp.
    There. Now can people sleep at night? Because I swear, this completely sucks the fun out of the movies.

    5) Why does Leia remember Padme but Luke doesn't?
    Why does Anakin remember Padme dying if it hasn't happened yet? Because Anakin can see things in his dreams.
    'It's like... something out of a dream or...' Now we know Luke can too.
    'The Force runs strong in my family.' Now we know dream visions are most likely a strong Skywalker trait. Leia's a Skywalker.
    'Images really... feelings.' Sounds like what Jedi have described visions as. Images and feelings. 'She was in pain.' 'I sense a great amount of fear.' 'Pain, suffering, death I feel.' 'I saw a city in the clouds...' 'They were in pain...' And, we saw one of Anakin's dreams which I'd say easily qualifies of a vision of Padme in suffering and pain. Images and feelings. Now we know what Leia's 'memories' really are.
    Why did Leia sense mumsy and not Luke?
    Who was Anak
  17. kingthlayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2003
    star 4
    Even if Owen did recognize 3PO, he would never had said anything about it. He wanted Luke to stay on the farm, bringing up adventure stories about his father would only work against his efforts.
  18. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Why would Owen recognize 3PO? He was unpolished when he owned him in AOTC, and shiny gold in ANH. And do you remember the model number of the toaster you had 20 years ago?
  19. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    Well, if my toaster talked to me and had a personality :p
    It really lingers on how much interaction Owen had with the droid. Seemed like he was there for Shmi...
  20. kingthlayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2003
    star 4
  21. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    Why would Owen recognize 3PO? He was unpolished when he owned him in AOTC, and shiny gold in ANH. And do you remember the model number of the toaster you had 20 years ago?

    THANK YOU!!!!!!! :D
  22. TomPiltoff Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
    I've yet to hear a good explanation of Vader telling Luke "I MUST obey my Master."
  23. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Well, could be the nature of the Dark Side.

    Some people speculate Palps tortures or otherwise physically punishes Vader when he screws up.

    Some people think Palps is keeping Vader alive in some arcane fashion - or even if he's not, he could easily zap Vader with Sith Lightning.
  24. stinrab Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 5
    Maybe the force push would have been stopped or rebounded by the glass. I always imagined force push as a solid wall of air that smacked into the first thing it contacts.

    If Yoda can pull an Xwing out a swamp, I'm pretty sure the Jedi can use the Force through glass.

    Maybe they were too busy using the force to sense and dodge incoming fire

    They're busy using the Force and dodging fire when they are just fighting with their lightsabers. Doesn't prevent them using the force, though.

    Maybe to show Anakin's exceptional piloting skills as mentioned in ANH

    Bingo! ;) But it's still a bit of a plothole.

    ----
    Why would Owen recognize 3PO? He was unpolished when he owned him in AOTC, and shiny gold in ANH. And do you remember the model number of the toaster you had 20 years ago?

    Not only that, but watch the look Owen gives when he says "I have no need for a protocol droid". You can tell he's remembering how useless his old 3PO unit was :p
  25. Darth_Surgent Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2004
    star 4
    I've yet to hear a good explanation of Vader telling Luke "I MUST obey my Master."

    Ever since the events of TPM, Palpatine was trying to push himself into Anakin's life, as a father-figure. Around 10 years of Palpatine's teachings, proddings, and manipulations take place before AOTC comes out, and that cannot be ignored. While Obi-Wan had to maintain the role as the strict master as well as friend, Palpatine was able to be sort of the "fun uncle" who gives Anakin all of the advice that he wants to hear, who is always there for him, who spoils him rotten in some ways, and doesn't hold any expectations to him.

    By AOTC, Anakin is strongly resenting Obi-Wan, but Palpatine remains his loyal friend, and Anakin never once doubts him in his rise to power. Palpatine continues to maneuver Anakin's political beliefs towards his own ends, and does so without alienating him at all.

    As ROTS begins, Anakin still has no distrust whatsoever towards Palpatine. In fact, everything that happens up until they speak in his office actually increases Anakin's appreciation of the kind chancellor.

    Then it happens. Palpatine makes his confession, and Anakin feels betrayed. The loyal friend who has been here for over half of Anakin's life is now his enemy. But does he destroy him? No. Not only is this man still offering Anakin nothing but support, but also has the potential to save everything that Anakin holds dear (namely Padme). To think that Anakin completely holds on to their connection because of Padme would be a flaw, though. He is still the wise and powerful individual Anakin has come to respect, and now, even more, in recognizing that this man is the person responsible for everything that is happening in the galaxy right now. Is Anakin angry? Yes. Is Anakin even more curious than before? Also yes.

    Anakin is obsessed with the power that Palpatine is offering him, and he is willing to do anything to have it in his grasp. He does not like what he did to Mace, and he did not enjoy murdering those children, but he did it, and now he feels that there is no turning back.

    Anakin is sent to Mustafar, and he finally has a target that he doesn't have to be ashamed of eliminating. Even though he realizes that Palpatine was orchestrating of all this war and turmoil, he uses the Separatist leaders as scapegoats, and ignores Palpatine's past deeds, for he can still get something from him.

    Then Padme arrives, and in a way he's happy to see her. He still feels a sense of attachment to Palpatine, due to both the power and the negative sense that he will have to be bonded to him forever, but he has an idea which could, in his mind, excuse all of this and put things the way they should be. He and Padme can rule the galaxy together, and in that scenario he feels confident that he won't have any need to keep Palpatine around. As long as he has Padme, he has the strength to defeat this dark connection.

    But, of course, he then loses her. And the only person left is Palpatine. Is much of this Palpatine's fault? Yes, and Anakin knows it. But he is focused on Obi-Wan and the jedi. Not only does he blame them, but also remember that Palpatine blames Anakin as the one who actually killed her. He now has another layer of shame and depression, and the only way to get over it is kill off his emotions, and serve under the man who has shown himself to be a being of the greatest power in the galaxy. The past betrayals are forgotten, for he cannot dwell in the past when he is trying to erase it from his mind.

    Let's not just think of this in black and white, because there are powerful psychological motivations here. Palpatine has been the loving father figure, which inspires loyalty, and he has been the abusive father figure, which forces loyalty. Saying no to either of these figures after decades of obedience is not an easy task, especially for a man so emotionally broken as Anakin. Palpatine is strong, wise, and deadly. For years, Anakin has feared him, felt weak compared to him, and does not have the ability to defy
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