PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

Your post was in direct reply to me.

You told me that the League of Shadows were, in some ways, right. I don't think you could ever say that they, or Anakin, were right in their genocidal actions.

 

The word you are using doesn't make sense. Their actions are not the definition of that act. It belittles the meaning of the word to suggest that it is.

Anakin attacked a Tusken camp. There are still Tuskens after his act.
The League of Shadows were attacking Gotham, not the entirety of humanity.

I never used the word you were using, or suggested that that action would be right. Please only refer to what I write, as I'm careful in what I wrote!

 

But that particular tribe is now extinct. Depending on how different each tribe's culture is from one another, it may qualify.

 

The Tuskens are one species. As are humans, Twilek's, Gundarks, etc. So the term wouldn't fit here.

I was referring to the situation on Tatooine, the apathy of the Republic, and the criminal fraternity (be that Tuskens, bounty scum, the Hutts etc).

Please tell me you aren't going to question Luke destroying Jabba's sail barge next haha!

 

Trying to wipe out one human nation (or tribe, or ethnicity, or culture) within a region has consistently been described as genocide in real life. The concept has never required "attempting to wipe out a species"

 

Tatooine is not a part of the Republic, that is made quite clear in the films.
Republic laws don't matter and Republic currency is not valid, ergo it is not part of the Republic.
Qui-Gon makes it very clear when he says that if Anakin had been born IN the Republic, they would have identified him early.

So Tatooine is ruled by the Hutts, as is established.

Are they?
Anakin, a small boy, can walk from his work to his home and apparently not get attacked.
Luke, a grown man, is accosted for no reason at all.
And as I've said Tatooine is not part of the Republic.

Should the Republic have gone to war with the Hutts over their lack of obeying Republic laws?
That would be a very dangerous precedent.

Yes they are shown as hostile and dangerous.
Doesn't excuse indiscriminate mass murder.

The Jawas starting to shoot at the Imperials? Please, this is beyond reaching for straws.
They were killed by the Empire, as was Luke's uncle and aunt.
For the crime of having been in possession of a droid with a secret, never mind that they didn't know about it.

The Empire had no reason to destroy the Jawa crawler either, or to pin it on Sand People. But they did.
They are the bad guys.
The reason that comes to mind is secrecy. They don't want word getting out about them looking for a droid and so they kill all that have come in contact with it and they try to make it look like other people did it.

Really?
First, take the guy Vader chokes, Motti is it? He is just as eager as Tarkin to use the DS, if not more so.
He even says "With pleasure" when Tarkin tells him to go to Alderaan. He is looking forward to mass genocide.
And no one at the DS conference was against the DS as a concept. Some only worried about the rebels and that dissolving the senate was dangerous and could lead to trouble keeping order.
They don't kill unnecessarily? Tell that to the captain, whose neck Vader crushed even while he was questioning him.
And warning shoots? They have stun settings, we see that later, so avoiding deaths was quite possible for the Empire, they didn't use it.

No, it wasn't justice, it was vengeance, nothing else.
Some Sand People hurt Anakin and so he killed any and all Sand People he could find, if they were involved or not didn't matter.

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The warning idea might have worked if Anakin only killed the male warriors and left the woem and children alive. But he killed ever last one in that camp.
So no Sand People could know what happened there or why.
They are low tech and have no radios or the like. So this would only get discovered when/if some people from another tribe happens to come by.
That could be weeks or months, the bodies would likely have been eaten by carrion by that time.
And would the Sand People even know what a light saber even is?
Or a Jedi?
All they would know is that someone killed the whole camp. Odds are that this could just infuriate them and make them hate the settlers even more.
So the violence could grow instead of diminish.
As for Obi-Wan, the film isn't very clear but the novel says that Obi-Wan made a sound of a Kryat Dragon, and that is what scared the Sand People, not him.

As for your comparing this to the League of Shadows.
What they wanted to do, was to destroy a city, killing thousands of not millions, both the guilty and innocent alike in order to send a message.
Much like Tarkin did.
He destroyed a planet, killing billions just to send a message, "Obey the Empire or you die!"

The League didn't bat an eye to kill the innocent, women and children in order to destroy a city they felt was beyond saving.
Would anything have changed?
There would a be a few less criminals and a lot of dead people.
But why would this change anything?
The rest of the country would likely view this as a terrorist attack using some form of gas, which it was.
So other than an attempt to find those responsible, would anything be better?
The world surely changed after 9/11, but to the better?

I can think of one example from Dr Who, the Time War.
The war was terrible beyond all words and it wiped out whole species and civilizations and it was making all of creation bleed.
So the War Doctor decided to end it, by destroying both sides.
He killed both the guilty and the innocent to stop a horror. And he spent 400 years regretting it.

Here, I don't think the film or Lucas tries in any way to justify what Anakin did.
He paints it as wrong, plain and simple. When Anakin is talking about killing not just the men but the women and children, that hammers the point home, this was wrong.
Both that he used those terms and that he brings it up. Lucas shows us that this was wrong and Anakin knows it was wrong.
He doesn't take responsibility for it tough and Padme brushing it aside makes both of them more than a little dubious in my view.

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I don't see the implication that all the adults were responsible. When Anakin makes a point of saying, "And not just the men, but the women and children too."
That makes it sound very much like the women were not responsible and neither were the children.
Had he said "And not just the adults but the children as well" then your argument might have some weight.
And I am not comfortable with guilt by association and would not condemn someone without some proof.

Could the women have done anything?
Unknown.
Had they freed Shmi, what then?
Let her walk home? In the desert?
That would likely kill her.
And they might get hurt or killed for their disobedience.

Were all adult Germans guilty of the Holocaust?
If one argues that any adult that did nothing is, then should the Allies have executed all adult Germans?
Thankfully they didn't, instead they had trials were they tried to find out who was guilty and to what extent.
Not perfect but far better than just killing everyone.

As for war, yes in wars people die and not just soldiers, the civilians die too and in recent years, more of the latter than the former has become the sad, sad norm.
But there is such a thing as war crimes.
Far from all are punished and sadly those that commit atrocities too often benefit from it.
Doesn't mean we should just give up and accept it.
But these days, that has happened a lot.
And I don't like it.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I believe both actions could be considered genocide. Even if you don't agree it's still mass murder, and it's only a matter of technicality.

This is a completely different situation. They are killing to escape people who are trying to kill them.

 

I'd like to add, in some human societies it is common for children to carry guns, go to war and participate in terrorist activities.




Is it not POSSIBLE (even likely?) that in that Tusken camp the "children" as well as women were armed and actually attacked Anakin, forcing him to defend himself? Would that really be that far-fetched? All we see in the movie is Anakin striking down ONE guard. We are not shown what happens next. Is it not at least thinkable that a split second later the remaining Tusken (women, children and all) opened fire on him? So he wouldn't have had a choice but use his Jedi reflexes and act FAST. It was one against 20 or 30 after all!!
It would make sense in a warlike barbaric society to train children in violence and how to use firearms at an early age. Also in that scene I don't remember actually seeing any babies. Are we certain there were any? Just a thought, and offering a possibility here, not saying I have to be right.

 

In the AOTC novelization at least, it's made pretty clear that the women and children did not attack him.

 

Judging by the way Anakin talks about it, I think it’s clear the Tusken women and children were not fighting back. “And not just the men...but the women...and the children too!” If they all ganged up on him with all their weapons, would he be so ready to say that?

 

In the emotional state of mind he is in at that point? I'd say anything would have been possible, ranging from hiding his actions to actually exaggerate them. I don't see anything to indicate that the Tusken would not have attacked Anakin. Sure, possibly he could have escaped with the body without killing everyone, but then again he may not. The truth is we simply don't know for sure.

Novelizations can be tricky. In some cases they contradict the movies. In this short excerpt some Tusken very clearly were armed and attacking Anakin. Nowhere is it written that those attackers were men only. So the book doesn't really help clear up that ambiguity.

But as I said, it's only the novelization, not the movie, so we are not really sure how much that counts as canon.

 

He ignored her. “Not just the men,” he went on. “And the men are the only fighters among the Tuskens. No, not just them. The women and the children, too.” His face contorted, as if he was teetering between anger and guilt. “They’re like animals!” he said suddenly. “And I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!”

From the Visual Dictionary's picture of Tusken families, we know that Tusken women dress differently.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tusken_Raider

(middle figure in group of 3, first image)

So we have a way for Anakin to tell that he's killing both men and women.

 

I'm sorry but the idea that Anakin had to kill the entire tribe in self defence after his mother died is frankly ridiculous, if only for the fact he was able to get into the place without being noticed, he could have left without being noticed.

 

By the time Shmi was dead the group may already have been aware of an intruder. He was there at least 5 to 10 minitues, maybe longer. What about those watch dogs? He may have Force-fooled them going in, but it may not have worked again. The Tusken could silently have gotten their weapons ready, just waiting for him to exit that hut. Then surprise would have been on their side and they may simply have shot him down, Jedi or not. Also he would have been slowed down by the body, and remember he had to get back up the cliff, where his speeder was parked. I don't think he would have made it back unnoticed. Even if he did get back to the speeder safely and then the Lars farm, what would have kept the Tusken from attacking again, this time maybe taking Beru? And then nobody would have been around to protect her! No, what Anakin did was the only way to make sure that one tribe would never attack again.

 

It's clearly shown in the film that the Tusken's weren't made aware of his presence until he began killing them. He made it there unnoticed, to suggest that he would have, for some reason, been noticed on the way out, is really stretching for reasons to justify Anakin's mass murder.

Even if he were engaged in some type of war against the Tusken's, slaughtering an entire village is completely against the rules of war.

 

Um, yeah, like the Soviet Union, perhaps N. Korea, are more orderly. Dissent is squashed - so other than those squashed, order is maintained.

I know you want us to get to a point where we agree with you. So I will. So, of course, it is possible. Just as I agree a lot of the settlers are probably high-fiving Anakin's actions in killing those "barbaric Tuskens."

Can you agree with me that is is entirely POSSIBLE that the women and children were NOT armed? So is it fair to jump to concluding that because they "might be," Anakin was fully justified in his actions in killing them? It smacks of believe the worst AND act on that belief with no evidence.

 

No, I don't want anyone to agree with me. I was presenting an alternate possible scenario, nothing more, especially since defending Anakin seems to be treated like absolutely unthinkable, and those of us trying to clarify what may have been his reasons are the minority. Nobody is expected to accept it as truth.
Of course, your scenario is also possible! That's what we are doing here, discussing possibilities. That is the whole point of this thread.

 

That's cool, then.

 

I don't think Anakin's actions against the Tuskens are supposed to be defensible; that's the point of that plot. Perhaps understandable, in a fit of rage, a "crime of passion" if you will, but a crime nonetheless. The Tuskens were guilty too, but as a Jedi, he is held to a higher standard.
Reading through the post, there is a lot of debate about the "women and children" line; for me, the telling portion of his tirade there is "I slaughtered them like animals." If they were all armed and attacking him, I would think that killing in combat versus slaughtering would make a difference. After all, they were in their camp, probably going about their routines of cooking, mending, crafting, sleeping, etc. While some probably tried to defend themselves, I'm reading it more like he killed many who were trying to flee or cowering and hiding.

 

But Padme, generally to be seen as a representative of reason and civilization, seems to consider it wrong but understandable (maybe it was implied that her judgment had already been clouded but if so that wasn't strongly implied).

Probably? I think he does consider it wrong in itself but it's a little ambiguous because it's mixed up with whether it was wrong for him as a Jedi to lose control at all vs. wrong as a person to do what we did at all although I guess for him those basically are the same things.

The ones living around concentration camps, let alone those that were extermination camps, were guilty. Inaction in itself can and in some contexts should deserve punishment although probably not execution, it should deserve imprisonment and loss of wealth. Although with genocide by a society the punishment would be so large that neither the victors seem to push for it nor the losers willing to accept it.

That isn't seen as the norm by most viewers and I don't think the film tried to suggest that was the situation, indeed I think Anakin's regret suggests he didn't actually see them (aside from the men) as combatants in general, let alone combatants who attacked him.
Although the line comparing all of them to animals is odd-it could be that they attacked in animalistic rage or that he viewed them as barbaric for their practices against his mother which they were all to blame for, even though he also regretted that he had that view and acted on it (most likely) or something else.

 

In all those recent movies all audiences want is a "BADASS" doing badass things, otherwise you are a pussy. Why can't people get over Anakin????? All of you go on about how whiny he is, then suddenly he actually does something really badass and now it's you who whine? So what do you want anyway??? An emotional sensitive loving Anakin won't do for you will he? You keep going on about what a spoiled teenager he is? He talks about sand and gets slammed for being a pussy, he tells his feelings to Padmé and yet again you complain how "whiny" he is?? Then all of a sudden he ACTS, and for the first time actually does BADASS things, things you all LOVED OT Vader for!!! But no, that's not what you wanted either??? Well, luckily Lucas went ahead with it anyway!!!! Me, I won't get caught in all that moralizing ethical courtroom discussions again. You just go on about ethics all you want. Me, I found Anakin turning badass very plausible and satisfying!
And yes, the hell with the sand people.... they had it coming! Sorry.... but's that's how I see the situation. Now there's fewer of them, good for the farmers. Not "massacre" but "pest control"

 

I find Padme's lack of a reaction as doing her character a bit of a disservice.
She could have shown more of a reaction and while also offering some support and say that what he did was in some ways understandable but still wrong.
And I think she should also have suggested that he speak to the Jedi about this.
By not suggesting it and staying silent, she became an enabler.

I also find this troubling when compared with her big reaction in RotS when Anakin AGAIN kills children.
She pretty much dismissed it the first time but now it is evil and monstrous?

It was wrong for both a Jedi and a normal person.
What adds to it is that Anakin has a lot more power than an ordinary person and thus if he looses control and goes on a rampage, he can do a lot more damage.
This is why I find it troubling that he doesn't seek help and that Padme does not suggest it.
A powerful Force user like him can not loose control like this and start killing all in sight.

Imagine if Superman were to go totally nuts, he could likely destroy cities or even the whole planet.

You had the Nuremberg trials that tried to meet out some justice and determine who was responsible and to what extent. And some were executed, others sent to jail and so on.
It wasn't indiscriminate killing of any and all Germans.

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I think what Anakin says next is the answer.
"I SLAUGHTERED them like animals!"
The slaughter of an animal most often does not give the animal in question much chance to fight back.
And when talking of battles, a slaughter often implies that one side did not have a chance and so it wasn't much of a fight.
Here, Anakin is way more powerful than any of the men in the camp so they had little to no chance of actually hurting him.
The women and the children had even less of that.
As you said, they were not combatants nor do I think they even tried to attack him.
But he killed them anyway. And that makes it worse to me because this implies that Anakin searched the whole camp and killed all he could find. And he chased after those that tried to run.

Plus Anakin is armed with a weapon that can cut people to pieces, which a slaughter also does.

@Sith Lord 2015

Killing women and children makes a person a badass????

I found Anakin irritating and annoying at first due to his attitude and his complaining.
Then he murdered women and children and that made him worse.
And that he decided to keep it a secret from the Jedi added to that.

So the massacre did not make him any better in any way, rather the opposite.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

No, I didn't mean what happened later. But when we first see him ignite his saber with that look on his face we know he means business. It's a pretty powerful scene. This is the first time we see grown-up Anakin take his lightsaber and it's clear that he's prepared to use it. Before he used his weapon but only to kill those centipedes and then to cut into Zam's speeder, only he loses it a few seconds later. This time he is 100% in combat mode, right or wrong, I simply liked how that scene worked. Now we really get to see young Vader in action!

 

Even just that bit, I don't see anything really badass there.
Grief and murderous rage, certainly. Badass?
Not really.

And Vader in the OT was controlled, calm, a cold fury perhaps.
But little really upset him or made him unhinged.
Loosing control and going off on a rampage, that isn't what I associate with OT Vader.

Ruthless, calculating, not one for BS, don't much care about loss of life and willing to take risks if need be, yes.

Like when Vader is fighting Luke in ESB, first it is toying and then evaluating.
Only at the end does Vader go "Ok playtime's over, this is business!"

Bye
Old Stoneface

 

In the OT he's an "old man", in the PT a young hothead. It would have looked odd if young Anakin had that controlled, brooding, calculating side to him at that point. OT Vader could very well afford to be more detached and less emotional, since he doesn't have any more emotional ties left.