PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

Again, you have some good reasonable arguments. Not saying that my interpretation is correct, I admit I am purely speculating.

Sure the Cantina is a rough place. Still it's thinkable there were a few characters who just wanted to enjoy a few peaceful drinks and could have done without fights. Only two of them were openly aggressive, the other ones pretty much minded their own business. If those aggressive ones kept the others from just having a drink in peace or negotiating business, as they are shown to do, then why not go to the authorities to remove those violent elements?
As to how much of the Imperial presence is known to the general population, sure, it's possible everyone knew. But again, that one guy who bothered Luke had not expected stormtroopers to be right outside the Cantina. The troopers could have been in Mos Eisley for some time without patrolling places like the Cantina. So at that point he had nothing to fear.

Again, possible. I just don't think anyone among the Imperial troops (or anyone at all for that matter) had a particular awe of lightsabers or Jedi. At the most they were some ancient history, good enough for a chat around a campfire, but certainly no longer a serious threat.

Well, that would suggest that troops were indeed stationed on Tatooine, which again supports my theory that Imperial troops did act as some sort of police force. At the very least they were feared. And those informants were sure to have profited in some way. Otherwise why help at all when the Empire is generally so hated? Hated or not, they did exercise some kind of control.

But not that particular combination. I'm sure Vader gave his soldiers precise instructions what exactly to look for. We do see many droids, but how often do we see that specific R2 model with that specific model of protocol droid together?

No, of course I'm talking about the Empire during the ANH era. They stopped Luke's landspeeder, and we can assume it's not the first time stormtroopers checked traffic. This again would support the theory that there has been Imperial presence prior to the Tantive IV incident.

Right, so we agree on this part. The Republic didn't bother with Tatooine, while the Empire considered the planet part of it. Liked by the citizens or not, the Empire was now part of life on Tatooine, where the Republic showed no interest at all. It is not unthinkable that SOME inhabitants profited from that control. Also we don't know for sure if slavery could possibly have been outlawed by the Empire. Criminal organizations like the Hutts still exist, but maybe slavery was no longer so openly practiced under the Empire?

Exactly what I tried to express in my previous post.
I repeat, that the Empire arrived on Tatooine after the Tantive IV is one possible interpretation, certainly not the only one. They may very well have been stationed there and did seem to know their way around. However that worn armor could have been due to some other mission somewhere, not necessarily on Tatooine. I doubt stormtroopers get new armor after every fight or mission.

 

Thank you and I am also mostly speculating as well.

But here is the issue, if it was common that troublemakers were reported to the "cops" by other cantina patrons then the guy starting a fight with Luke is a grade A moron. He is a wanted man and he causes a scene that will bring troopers to investigate.
Granted he is likely drunk but this is very stupid.

And if brawlers were normally hauled away by the "cops", why would Obi-Wan says the place was rough?
Imperial "justice" is likely not pleasant and after a few examples were made, people would not make a fuss and the place would be quiet.

Who said anything about awe? I simply argue that it is not implausible that the troopers know about the Jedi as they were the enemy of the Empire and their weapons.
Han knew what a lightsabre was and he had heard of the Force. He didn't give it much credence but it wasn't like he looked at Luke's lightsabre and said, "What is that thing?"
And it is only about 20 years since the Jedi were declared enemies of the state so well within living memory.

Some likely profited under the Empire sure, and some likely profited under the Republic.
But the question is, to the general population is the Empire more well liked than the Republic?
I don't think the OT films suggest that the Empire, by the time of ANH, is more popular than the republic.
Some like it because they profit from it, others don't care as they haven't been affected yet and others still don't like it but are too afraid to do anything and some resist.

And if the Empire had a presence on Tatooine prior to the start of ANH, then again the wanted man at the bar is very well aware that troopers are there and he has been there for some time and not caught the eye of the "cops" yet.

Vader never saw C3PO or R2 on the ship. He was told about an escape pod and concluded that Leia had hidden the plans there and sent soldiers down to get them.
The troopers that find the pod conclude that droids were on-board and they track the Jawas and then to Luke's family. Did they know the exact look, make and model of the droids? Unknown?
And both R2 units and protocol droids are not uncommon.

What exactly is your point?
I have said many times that Tatooine was NOT part of the Republic and this is why they had no presence there. They could not have one as this wasn't their territory.
By the time of ANH the empire had expanded and now had some control over Tatooine. The Hutts are no longer the rulers and are instead mostly criminals now.
This fits with what we see in Solo, where the Empire is apparently waging a war of conquest of sorts.
So it is expanding beyond what was the Old Republic.
Was there a war over Tatooine or did the Hutts see the way things were going and handed over control in exchange for some favors? Unknown.

If life for the common person living on Tatooine was better under the Empire than it had been under the Hutt is again unknown. Some profited but others, like Luke, hated it.
So we are not comparing the Republic and the Empire here, we are comparing the Hutts with the Empire.
And to me, Mos Espa in TPM seemed "safer" and less "scummy" than Mos Eisley in ANH.

Is slavery outlawed? We don't know. Jabba has slaves and he didn't seem to fear the Empire much.
Again take Solo and the mines of Kessel. They seemed run on slave labor and the Empire mostly left it alone until there was a major incident there.
So slavery might be illegal but the Empire doesn't bother to enforce the law unless they want to.

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Well in my experience, most military tend to frown on dirty uniforms. So that troopers had uniforms that they didn't bother to clean, seems a bit unlikely to me.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark.

 

True. It probably never happened before that stormtroopers entered the Cantina to investigate an argument, so that man was confident the "law" would leave him alone. What he didn't expect was that this time the "law" just happened to be right outside the door. Also he picked on the wrong guy. So I'd say stupidity combined with bad luck for him. By the way, any idea what happened to him? All we see is a severed alien arm. We don't know what happened to either of the troublemakers.

My guess is that if brawls don't escalate the Imperials don't bother. And I think old Ben when he told Luke to be careful, him being raised on a farm, didn't actually think that Luke's life was in danger. "Rough" could mean anything, but not necessarily that you are likely to get killed.

The former enemy, sure. But since the only Jedi left is an old hermit and that little green guy on a remote swamp planet whom nobody in the Empire knew about anyway, they surely weren't considered a threat anymore. The Alliance was the new threat. But as far as I know nobody saw a connection with the Jedi, at least until Vader found out his old master was still alive and helped the Rebels. I don't think the Empire ever knew Yoda was still alive, and if they did they just didn't care. Even Vader didn't seem too interested to find out who taught Luke his Force skills. Didn't he wonder who taught his son how to use a lightsaber? And where it came from in the first place? That it actually used to be his own? Judging from the movies, he didn't care.

Again, a valid argument, and again pure speculation on my part. But at least it's possible some of the stormtroopers on the Tantive IV saw R2 and 3PO together and reported that to Vader. Or they might even have gotten that from the Jawas (or Owen), that R2 was sold to that specific farm along with a golden protocol droid. While those probably exist by the millions in the galaxy, I'd think they weren't that common in the desert. They may have known what type of R2 model carried the plans. Knowing that it would be together with 3PO would have made the search a lot easier for the troopers.

My point is that for some individuals Imperial presence on Tatooine might have been seen as a good thing, and preferable to the Hutts. I was mainly talking about Mos Eisley inhabitants, in this case those in the Cantina. Some of those creatures may have been there to do perfectly legal business, not smuggling, and would not have wanted fights. So the stormtroopers may have given them some sense of security. In short, even if the Empire was generally hated, their presence still may have been welcome by some.

Normally, sure. Still, those troops may have been sent to Tatooine directly from another conflict zone, and simply didn't have the opportunity the replace or clean their uniforms. Since the Empire has been expanding there may not have been enough soldiers to control all the newly seized planets. So appearance of the troopers would have been secondary.

 

Firstly, can I just ask that you not mention Solo because some of us may not have seen it yet! Let's stick with the PT story and at most the OT when discussing here.

Some interesting points, but I would like to clarify.

The Stormtroopers in Mos Eisley do not all appear to be part of the mission to hunt down the droids. In any case the droids were outside at this point near the speeder, as instructed by young Luke. Obi Wan had already tricked the other patrol (who must have either been informed by Command to look for these droids, or else part of the mission to find them).

The Stormtroopers in the bar do literally be a response to a call by the barman to "trouble." Han notes they are interested in the handiwork of Obi Wan. It is not because of the lightsaber, but the fact that two thugs (well one in particular) started a fight with Obi Wan/Luke, a fight was about to ensue, before Obi Wan ended it there and then. The troopers do literally be there as a police force.

The Republic has zero presence on Tatooine. It is shown that slavery is practised openly contravening all known Republic laws. The gangster Hutt clans operate with impunity. Versus in the Imperial era, where Jabba notes to Han that Han dropped his cargo on the first sign of an Imperial starship suggesting that the Imperials do not take kindly to smuggling.

For the day to day lives of many, life would either be the same, or in fact better under the Empire than the Old Republic, which was bloated with corruption, bureaucracy and simply didn't try to exist or enforce its laws across the galaxy. The Imperials have a presence on Tatooine. There appears to be a local force, as well as the units dispatched from the Star Destroyer to hunt for the stolen data.

Note how there must be regular patrols on the ground (the policing Stormtroopers) as well as in space. Han notes that the Star Destroyers pursuing them aren't the regular type, but far larger ones, suggesting his passengers are "hotter than he thought."

Luke himself wanted to join the Imperial Academy as soon as possible when his family were able to take care of themselves.

Leia mentions the villainy of the likes of Tarkin. Palpatine and Tarkin's Empire are vastly different it seems from what some officers want and indeed what Vader wants (note the Death Star conference table viewpoints discussed and Vader's offer to Luke to rule as Father and Son). Interestingly, note also how once the Tantive IV is taken, the Imperials almost always attempt to subdue and capture the suspects, not openly blast them to oblivion.

The droids are located by what seems to be an Imperial spy, who notifies a group of Stormtroopers. Whether said troopers were part of the local garrison or the visiting continent is unclear, but they attempt to stop the Falcon from taking off.

Jabba and his gangsters are forced to operate in the sand dunes far off the radar of the Imperial policed Mos Eisley. The opening to ROTJ describes him as vile.

The Imperials appear to have the authority to not only inspect cargo ships, but also patrol and stop vehicular traffic on Tatooine.

Excellent points. The Imperials have a policing presence on Tatooine. Luke wanted to join the Imperial Academy at the earliest opportunity also.

The Stormtroopers who attend the barman's call appear to be part of the local garrison at Mos Eisley. There was a fight which those two thugs started and Obi Wan finished. The troopers come to investigate the "disturbance in the bar," where two voices cried out in pain and were ultimately silenced. It is likely that the local policing patrols would reenter the same bar to investigate Greedo, ascertain what happened to him, and "who shot first."

From the conversation Han has with Jabba, it is clear that Imperial Star Destroyers patrol local space regularly and are active against piracy and smuggling. The Hutts no longer have full sway and can no longer act with impunity like in the days of the Old Republic. Tatooine might be still less glamorous to live on than Coruscant, but slavers, and gangsters can no longer operate on the streets brazenly like they do in the days of the corrupt Old Republic, where Sebulba almost kills Jar Jar, and slavery is practised despite Republic laws against such things.

The Imperials have a presence on this planet. In addition, there appears to be a contigent dispatched from the Star Destroyer to locate the stolen data. Local patrols it seems have been informed and kept up to date and told to look for droids. They attempt to stop the Falcon when informed by a spy about two droids being smuggled off world. When the Falcon is able to take off before being apprehended, two patrolling Star Destroyers move to intercept.

The Empire clearly is enforcing the law as much as it is engaged in its mission to recover stolen plans. I agree it wasn't just about a mysterious weapon. It was a disturbance that they were responding to. In fact unknown to these two Troopers, the very droids that the Empire were seeking were standing right outside next to the speeder. Luke and Obi Wan also didn't want to attract attention. Mind tricks would work up to a point. It would be contrary to their objective to draw attention to themselves, which would inevitably draw attention to the two droids accompanying them. Obi Wan doesn't even inform Han of their mission. He explicitly states the deal to include "and no questions asked."

I believe there is a hilarious take on what happened to the attackers at the bar by Robot Chicken, with the thug actually mistranslating the alien (who was actually complimenting Luke's hair), and picking an unnecessary fight with Obi Wan.

They are probably on the run though. Not only did they pick a senseless fight with the wrong customers, but the Imperial troops are probably looking for them too. I agree, everyone else was trying to enjoy a drink. Although I wouldn't say much for the moody barman's etiquette. However I suppose the music and the drinks kept the customers coming. The Imperials are clearly shown to be active versus the apathetic Republic! Tatooine is part of the Empire.

And no doubt we would see somewhere (perhaps even in the 4K Special Edition eventually), the monument to a mythical warrior who ended Tusken barbarity, which is maintained by the local populace with Imperial blessings.

 

Solo has been out for close to two months and this is the movie section and Solo is equally canon with the OT and PT.
And all I said was that that film shows how much or rather how little, the empire feels like dealing with organised crime. They can and do ignore it at times or even profit from it. Some take bribes, others look the other way and so on.
Go see it, it is quite watchable and it might show you that life under the empire isn't as pleasant as you think it is.

Again no, for several reasons.
1) If troopers are normally called to deal with fights, either by the bartender or by other patrons, the people that pick a fight with Luke are total retards. Both are wanted men and at least one has a death sentence on him.
And yet they do something that they know will bring the authorities?
Who will then arrest them or even execute them.
That is not just stupid, that is impressively stupid.

2) Fights did seem fairly common but if troopers come in every time that would discourage brawlers.
So this does not fit. And neither Greedo or Solo seemed in any way concerned with the law.
So that does not fit either.

3) There is no proof that they guy talking talking to the troopers were sent by the bartender and the ANH novelization makes it unlikely. As there the soldiers question him and he hesitates before pointing towards the place were Obi-Wan is sitting. Why would he hesitate if he was the one who called them?

So yes, the troopers were there because of a report of a lightsabre, that is why they checked it out. Normal fights, they won't care.

Again you keep making this claim but you ignore the answers.
The republic had no presence because it was OUTSIDE of the Republic.
Do you get it? Tatooine is NOT part of the Republic, it is outside their space, their domain, they don't control it or rule over it.
The Hutts are the rulers of Tatooine, not the Republic.
So the Republic legally can NOT have any presence on Tatooine because it is not part of the Republic.
For them to have such would require them to invade Tatooine and take over. Which would make them oppressors or dictators.

The Republic did not cover the whole galaxy, some parts were outside it, like Tatooine.
Also, in the OT smugglers did exist in the empire. Was smuggling common in the Republic?

The Empire is also corrupt, it also does not always bother to uphold the law but in addition to that, it actively oppresses part of the population.
The Republic was bad yes but it didn't actively hurt the people that lived in it, the empire do.
They kill the Jawas, Owen and Beru and the whole planet of Alderaan.
They are evil, the crawl even says that.

Did some benefit from it's rule? More than likely, just like some did profit under the Republic.
Was the empire better? To me, the films answers this with a very clear NO.

The patrols were looking for the droids, that is made very clear. How much "policing" they do, if any, is not clear.
Two wanted men, one with a death sentence on him has been there for a while and the troopers has not done anything with him.
Jabba, a known crime lord, can move around town openly without fear of arrest.
And given how big Jabba is, he could hardly move around covertly.

There are patrols in space yes, as I've said, the empire isn't totally lawless.
So smugglers can't be totally careless.

Tarkin and Vader aren't the only ones, take Motti at the above mentioned conference.
He is proud of the DS and is eager to use it.
So we can see that while not all imperials are like Tarkin, he is not an exception.
There are others that are quite like him.
Like Krennic in R1, the DS was in many ways his baby.

Jabba had a big palace so he was hardly hiding. Who and where he was did not seem to be any kind of secret. And yet has the Empire done anything about him? Nope. They don't care as long as he does not cause them and direct problems.
Vader knew of Jabba and when dealing with Boba Fett, Vader was willing to have the empire pay him if Solo was killed in the freezing.

There were three Star Destroyers there and they would have to called by Vader to blockade Tatooine and prevent the stolen plans from getting away. Vader himself had left with his ship.
So those ships are not the normal patrol ships, Han even comments of that.

Nope, see above. They are there because of a report about a lightsabre, not any of the likely very common fights that goes on in there.

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And again, if they are on the run, what sense does it make to get into a fight and draw attention to themselves?
If the troopers are looking for them, they are not doing a very good job. The human looking guy had a very noticeable face, kind of hard to miss that.
No, this seemed like they did this quite often, pick fights with those that looked easy picking.
And notice that the bartender only gets upset when one guy pulls a blaster, "No blasters".
He didn't make any effort to calm things down before that.

Yes he picked a fight with the wrong person but it sure looked to me that he and his buddy has done this before. And without any worry about the "law".
As for what happened, one guy lost his arms, the walrus guy I would think. The novelization says thatone guy flees but the other two are cut into pieces.

Obi-Wan warns Luke twice, before they enter the city and then again before they enter the bar.
So the danger seemed quite real.
Plus Luke has lived his life in a desert that has pretty savage people in it. He had a rilfe and mostly likely knew how to use it. So his life wasn't totally quiet.

Again, less than twenty years have passed since the Jedi were declared enemies of the republic and the purge began. We know that some Jedi, other than Yoda and Obi-Wan, were alive after RotS.
So it might not be more than five years ago since the "last" Jedi were hunted down and killed.
Plus the Jedi were legendary as was their weapon, the idea that troopers had no idea what a lightsabre was is a bit far-fetched.

And even if the troopers don't think that this guy is a Jedi, he has a Jedi weapon and they are likely very uncommon so they would want to know who he is and where he got it from.

As for Vader, he had likely not heard about some guy using a lightsabre in a brawl in some bar on Tatooine. What he did was sense his old master, not just any old Jedi, his former master.
As for Yoda, here the PT causes a slight problem. Both Vader and Palpatine know Yoda and neither have any proof that he is dead. So why aren't they considering the idea that Yoda is training Luke after Obi-Wan had been killed?
Vader only ever talks about "Obi-Wan taught you well."
I know that the RotJ novelization has Palpatine talk about Yoda but the film does not.

But if they knew the look, make and model of both droids, why even bother with questions? Simply take Luke and Obi-Wan in right away, the droids fit the bill. The empire does not really care about hurting people's feelings.
So either they knew only about two droids and nothing much else. Or the combo is very common.

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Again, I don't disagree that some might have liked it better under the Empire than under the Hutts.
But firstly, DarthTalonx keeps comparing the empire with the Republic, who did NOT control Tatooine as it was outside it's territory.
Second, that the rule of the empire was better than the rule of actual gangsters, is not something to brag about in my opinion.
Thirdly, there were quite a number of people that did NOT like the rule of the empire better, hence why we have a rebellion and one that is growing.
And the way the Empire plans to deal with that is to step up their oppression and rule through force and fear. Not law.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

As for why some of us have not seen Solo yet, I guess we all have different "excuses". In my case, and maybe there are others in the same "situation", it is that I actually have had no access to a movie theater that showed the movie in the original version. It may sound incredible, but in old Europe there are still some countries (Spain, Germany, and I think France being among them) where everything is dubbed into a practically unrecognizable version, from movies to TV shows. Only in the larger cities do you find movie theaters that screen some of the major releases in the original language. I personally have to absolutely watch everything in its original language, and some of the dubbed voices actually cause me physical harm and psychological damage, meaning those movies are simply unwatchable - I exaggerate slightly but you get the idea. For me it has to be the original or nothing at all.

I don't think anyone actually thinks the Empire was good, only maybe that not everybody felt directly oppressed. My guess is that the average citizen probably went through life as usual, more or less the same as under the Republic. Luke nagged about how he hated the Empire, but I don't see how his or his family's life was in any way affected. And remember that he was VERY eager to go to the Imperial academy! So he didn't hate the Empire nearly as much as his life on Tatooine, at least not until that day his uncle bought the droids. Isn't this strange? Studying under a hated regime is better than boredom??

 

I live in Europe so I am aware of dubbing.
But what I mentioned are hardly spoilers for the plot.
I only said that the film shows more how life under the Empire was like and it was not all that pleasant.
And it also shows what I think the OT already hints at, that dealing with criminals is not very high on the Empire's list of priorities. They don't totally ignore it no but they can and do turn a blind eye to it at times.
Control and oppression are more the focus than upholding the law.

[/QUOTE]

The academy is only called that, the academy in ANH. Not imperial academy.
Also, in the ANH novelization, Biggs went to the same academy and he planned to defect and join the rebels. And he warned Luke that the empire would be stepping up their control over business, trade and even farmers. Even his uncle might have his farm seized and be forced to work there as little more than slaves.

It seemed that the academy was a way to become a commercial pilot/officer. It wasn't automatically a membership in the Imperial navy.

And Luke did not have much in the ways of options, it was either stay on Tatooine or leave and the only way he saw to leave was the academy.

And the question is, is life for the average Joe better under the empire than under the republic?
Given what the OT era films show, the OT plus R1 and Solo, I think the answer is that it is worse under the empire, on average.
Did some profit or benefit? Sure, but was it overall better? I don't think so.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

True. Just realized in the movie and novel the term "Imperial academy" isn't actually used. I must have picked that up somewhere else. Sure, Biggs warns Luke about the Empire, that they might even take over their farm. Also I think he mentions the possibility that they might get drafted by the Empire. In any case, I wasn't really defending the Empire per se, just offered an alternative view that maybe it did a little good. For my taste the OT world is just a little too black and white. It's even difficult to find individuals who are 100% evil, so I'm a little uncomfortable with such statements about an entire organization, even governments. The leader sure was 100% villain, but I'd like to think that there were officers and soldiers that actually felt they were doing good and bringing order to the galaxy. Take the worst regime there ever was on Earth, and even that would likely have had individuals serving it who didn't agree with the leadership. But all this is getting more and more off-topic and political, so I better stop here.

 

Luke did seem awfully keen to join the Academy as soon as possible. I think it is implied that these are Imperial. In the same way Han is perceived to have been a Captain? It seems like from start to finish, the recognised institutions and government are Imperial. E.g. stealing the shuttle in ROTJ. The fact that the Empire may find out about Bespin's off the books business in ESB. The Jawa's illicit operations in ANH.

I also haven't seen Solo yet. Just wanted to avoid spoilers.

I concur that for the most part, citizens living their day to day lives would probably live the same, or perhaps even better under the Empire than under the Republic. Where the Republic had zero presence, and an apathetic Senate/bureaucracy rarely sanctioned the Jedi to police and keep the peace, the Empire actively enforced the laws and patrolled the streets/space. It appears that it keeps at least a certain check on the criminal elements. Be that actually having a presence on distant worlds or outposts. Be that Star Destroyers inspecting cargo ships. Be that Stormtrooper platoons patrolling Tatooine. Be that Imperial Academies involving locals in governance and preserving order/seeking the best pilots in the galaxy.

The Empire also didn't appear to be corrupt. Anakin notes as much about Palpatine in AOTC. The Empire doesn't regard Bounty Hunters as anything more than scum, to only be resorted to if all other options fail. Jabba doesn't operate brazenly until he is in the confines of his hideaway palace. The Hutts don't have total free rein unlike in the days of the Republic.

Anakin may have indeed been turned into banta fodder by Sebulba if he wasn't someone else's property. Slavery is openly practised in the Old Republic which professes to be the galactic government.

Anakin by dispensing justice to the Tuskens, in a way is symbolic of the Empire, actually doing something about the galaxy's problems.

And not everyone was for the Death Star. That Imperial General at the Death Star Conference and Vader seemed none to impressed. An Empire led by Vader and Luke, which removed Palpatine's cronies might well have fared better and indeed governed without the ills of the Empire, the last remaining ills of the Old Republic.

Padme states that "There are Republic anti slavery laws." It is the Republic that does not enforce itself and exist out there. Tatooine is just as dangerous in TPM, and AOTC. Anakin at least drove fear into the bad Tuskens who committed barbaric acts. Maybe even he was considered some mythical hero who dispensed justice, even if we agree it may not have been done in the best way. To paraphrase Anakin from ROTS, "they must stand trial!"

The Empire at the very least establishes a presence on Tatooine. Bounty hunters and criminals and the corrupt are rampant in the Old Republic even on Coruscant itself. Obi Wan had to deploy the Force (with much style) to convince that fellow to not sell him Deathsticks and to go and rethink his life.

As for the two thugs at the bar, other than the hilarious Robot Chicken interpretation of the event (seriously check it out, it's good), they may have been drunk, or genuinely stupid. They picked a fight for no reason. That could happen anywhere. The Imperials may not have known that wanted men were there. But the Imperials at least try. The Republic doesn't even seem to care. The corrupt bureaucrats rarely sanction the Jedi (who are noble) to act to fight the bad guys of the galaxy.

Not everyone in the Republic was bad (e.g. Padme, Bail) and not everyone in the Empire was bad (Piett, Vader had he ruled with his son, TK421, the Stormtrooper who was about to stun Leia, and mercilessly killed). The Empire was the Republic transformed.

The Death Star conference - several Imperials of high rank were not for this "technological terror" versus the Starfleet. Vader was also not highly in favour of this project. Motti and Tarkin were of one type. Other Imperial officers were not all like these people. The Empire clearly had a discipline about them, and sense of honour. Captain Needa for instance. The officer on Endor, who captures the Rebels (part of Palpatine's trap) who uttered the famous words, "You Rebel Scum." The Imperials appear to consider Bounty hunters scum and to be used only as a last resort at best.

The Imperials do at least try to rein in crime. Jabba notes to Han how Imperial Star Destroyers run regular inspections of cargo which affects their smuggling. The Republic does not.

IF the Empire even tries to establish a presence on Tatooine, then that itself is a positive thing. The natives of the planet, be they Human, Tusken, Twilek, Rodian, Jawas, the entire melting pot, were otherwise under the dominion of the criminal fraternity and a free for all anarchic lawless environment. It appears that the Imperials have also established an accepted "real" currency that even Han accepts. Obi Wan notes the same currency that will be paid to him now, and upon reaching Alderaan. Republic credits were not considered real back in the days of TPM.

Going by the movie alone, it is not clear the troopers report to the bar owing to the lightsaber being used. They report to a disturbance. The locals may report that some mysterious cloaked figure used a bizarre weapon to slice of a would be attacker's arm. As for the two thugs/goons, we don't know what became of them after. Hopefully justice. Thank goodness for Obi Wan's intervention. But people clearly backed off from the Stormtroopers.

As for Greedo, I suppose the potential reward outweighed the risks of being caught. In any case, he got his just deserts as they say by Han.

Can I just ask that you put a spoiler tag on films outside the PT/OT, as some of us haven't seen them yet, and still want to spoiler free.

As for Rogue One,

Spoiler

The Imperials are clearly shown policing the trading outposts, checking identifications, and forming regular patrols on the streets. In a way this is the same as the peacekeeping Jedi, except more active. The Galactic government has simply transformed and been reorganised.

The Jedi are of course preferable. Whether Anakin stuck to Jedi principles (the will to act versus a Jedi shall not know anger) regarding the Tuskens is debatable and indeed the debate in this thread! I don't however view the Republic as being the bee's knees of governance. In a way, a Jedi led Empire would be a far more preferable choice with someone like Leia as Empress and a symbolic figure who united everyone together ceremonially, in a unified galaxy where there was no apathy to suffering, and just rule, instead of zero rule, or twisted rule (by the dark side of the Emperor, or the utter corruption of the Old Republic).

 

He certainly did! I limit myself to the Tusken this time to avoid getting warned not to go too far off-topic. Justifiable or not, Anakin did take action in a place where apathy was the rule, he took the law in his own hand where no other law existed. He ACTED, where others remained impassive/frightened/intimidated etc. He did not back down where an ordinary Jedi might have given in. He gave no mercy where mercy was undeserved. Say whatever you want about how Jedi are supposed to be like, I don't care. Anakin ignored that code and punished criminals right there and then, no questions asked. Han did the same with Greedo. Why are people so squeamish about AOTC? It's still Tatooine, and it's still a lawless Western-type environment. All old-school OT fans cheer for Han, but condemn Anakin for doing pretty much the same thing. The Tusken were "fearless", but I do think that incident drove some fear even into them. The smart ones may have gotten the message though: don't ever again mess with a Skywalker, for another Skywalker will certainly hunt you down to your death. Very simple! Stop attacking farmers and your villages won't get sliced apart by a lightsaber. Was that lesson learned? No idea! But Anakin certainly let those Tusken know the meaning of fear.

 

This is literally fascist rhetoric. Advocating the indiscriminate extermination of an ethnic group as a display of strength and virtue while justifying it under the banner of "law" and "order." I mean, I'm really not trying to flame anyone, but the Tusken slaughter's specific function in the narrative is to foreshadow Anakin's future actions as the fascist enforcer of a genocidal Empire modeled after Nazi Germany. And it's not like that's a really deep reading. So...uh....I mean, what am I supposed to say? Seriously.

 

"Fascist rhetoric"? Don't make me laugh. You choose to deliberately misinterpret my statements. I advocate NOTHING, only said that Anakin's actions may have been seen as a warning, "don't mess with farmers again or else.... we will leave you alone if you leave us alone", and this in a thread titled "defending Anakin...". So giving his reaction some sort of justification is the very purpose of this thread. I only gave my opinion, which you are certainly entitled to disagree with. But I have pretty much said everything I have to say on the topic and leave this discussion to others.
By the way, I suggest you don't call members on this forum "fascist" again in the future. It could well be seen as very offensive. If we can't have a discussion without personal attacks then I'm definitely out of it.

 

I know what you mean. I feel like Jedi like Windu would also be "Jedi of action." Qui Gon seemed also one of action, though more subtle. He certainly tried to bend the rules so to speak on what a Jedi could do, by attempting to free Anakin in the first place.

Yes sadly apathy and indeed "fear" was the order of the day. Fear by the criminal fraternity, be they the "vile" (as per ROTJ and TPM) gangster Hutts, the bandit monster Tuskens, bounty hunters, thugs etc. Anakin took action. He acted. Granted, his action was a reactionary move in anger, but many citizens of all species would no doubt commend this mysterious vigilante. Han also did something similar yes. You do see when it comes to Anakin's son, by that time, the Tuskens are not known to hit anything this big before, and only really be a big threat in the dark. Suggesting that the fear of the Force has been driven into the villainous sections of the Tuskens.

Anakin didn't start this, the Tuskens are the ones who took Shmi in the first place, and from what we are told in the movie, also killed those who went out to free her.

 

Anakin taught the Tuskens a lesson. Anakin is a teacher.

 

You're justifying collective punishment--the slaughter of men, women, and children. Don't have the gall to act like the offended party. We may be discussing a fictional scenario, but the things you're saying are almost word-for-word identical to arguments I've heard from fascists justifying the actions of their heroes. It's always all about committing atrocities against ethnic groups under the aegis of "law and order," "punishing criminals," "protecting the homeland," "doing what needs to be done," etc. It's the kind of conversation that unavoidably verges uncomfortably close to real life, and I feel like I have a moral obligation to call such things what they are. If I get banned for that, so be it. At least my conscience is clear. Let me very clear: I'm not saying you're a fascist. But the things you're saying have strong fascist undertones and you should be aware of it, and so should anyone else reading this discussion. There are children on this board.

We're discussing movies whose themes are explicitly anti-fascist, the Tusken slaughter is one of the scenarios clearly intended to illustrate the protagonist's descent into a fascist mindset, and you're defending it using rhetoric making use of key fascist themes. Cry me a freakin' river.

 

Anakin's motivations were vengeance. He was enraged. nationalistic political views have no relation to this scene.

 

incorrect response. /heels

 

Anakin wasn’t doing this out of some sense of superiority (i.e., “I’m a human, you’re not, so therefore you must die because you are inferior to me.”) He was doing this out of sheer blind rage, and he regretted his actions almost immediately after he had time to calm down and think about what he had done.

Causing great pain in a fit of explosive rage is not the same as having a certain political belief that ties closely with a certain real-world politics. Let’s...try to understand that first. :3

 

@DARTHLINK : well said!!!!

 

Indeed, Anakin demonstrated to Padme, that he regretted/couldn't believe his rage induced actions. It appears Palpatine also said that it was done out of revenge. Let us not forget that the Tuskens involved in this situation were the ones who committed acts of barbarity here. They took Shmi in the first place. Anakin snuck into their camp and attempted to free her. Then he dispensed justice, albeit in a moment of rage. Yoda noted that he was in "terrible pain".

It would be interesting to see the reaction of Tatooine citizens though. Whether there was indeed not only a memorial to Shmi, but respects paid to the vigilante who dispensed justice, by all citizens of Tatooine, be they honest Tuskens (not bandits like those in TPM and AOTC, and ANH), Twileks, Rodians, Jawas, Human farmers, Pilots, etc.

 

Yes, I was wondering about that too. If other Tusken did not find out what happened, maybe the Lars family told other farmers, provided of course Anakin told the Lars. It seems he spent at least another night on Tatooine. He arrived from the Tusken camp late afternoon, while they got Obi-Wan's message what appeared to be late morning or around noon. So he and Padmé must have eaten together with the family before then, or maybe at least sat together. He may have talked about what he had done, though there is nothing to indicate he did in the movie. I couldn't find anything in the novelization either.

 

Yes it appears that he only told Padme. And I am unsure as to whether Master Yoda fully knew what happened, but he did feel that Anakin was in terrible pain. I wonder if Anakin ever mentioned it to anyone other than Padme, and then later Palpatine (ROTS). It is possible he told his family/the Lars. I mean they knew he was a Jedi warrior. Given that the Tuskens had already killed out several riders who had gone out to try and find Shmi (and taken his step father's leg), it might be apparent that force may have been used to recover his mother.

I do wonder though as to the consequences of Anakin's actions on the local populace. We are told later via Luke that in his lifetime he has never heard of the Tuskens "hitting anything this big before." This would suggest that their bandit ways of TPM and AOTC are more restricted to attacking unprotected citizens by surprise or those who venture out alone in the dark. Whereas in AOTC, Shmi was taken in the morning.

I do wonder whether other citizens, be they Jawas, Humans, Twileks, Rodians, honest Tuskens, would have tipped their hats and raised a toast to this mysterious Jedi vigilante. Word would spread amongst tribes, peoples and myths established. After all one warrior took out an entire Tusken camp, who had kidnapped and tortured a woman citizen to her death. It doesn't seem coincidence that the Tuskens flee upon Obi Wan's approach. Perhaps the fear of the Jedi has been driven into them from Anakin's dispensing of justice. Whether a statue is built of a robed figure exacting vengeance and meting out justice is not clear, but wouldn't surprise me.

Crime. Slavery. Despair. Poverty! This is not how Tatooine's citizens were meant to live! The Jedi Order has been a check on galactic corruption for a thousand years. We loaded Federation ships with battle droids. Sacked the largest Tusken camp. Burned Jabba's sail barge to the ground. Whenever a society, or planet reaches the pinnacle of its decadence and despair, we Return to restore balance to the Force. A Jedi shall not know anger. Nor hatred. Nor love. A Jedi shall establish true justice.
- Qui Gon Jinn

 

There was a Tusken Jedi...or a Jedi that became a leader Tuskens or something. I don't remember his name. In "Kenobi" The Tuskens knew that an "air shaper"(jedi) came along and slaughtered a whole tribe, and were weary of Kenobi when they learned he could wizard like Anakin, and had a glowie stick. So they kept an eye on his house, but wouldn't go near it.

 

About the idea that what Anakin did had some effect on the other Sand People.

This assumes a lot.
1) That never before has an entire camp been wiped out by settlers or others.
If a state of war has been in effect between Sand People and the settlers or the Hutts, give the rather large tech disparity, I find it unlikely that not once has a camp been destroyed.
The settlers/the Hutts only need s ship and a few bombs/rockets and boom, camp gone.
So IF other camps has been destroyed in the conflict, why would another matter?

2) As has been mentioned before, that other Sand People find out.
Everyone in the camp were killed and again, given the low tech nature of the Sand People, it might be weeks, months or even years before any other Sand People notice that anything has happened.
And if a long time has passed, the bodies would have been eaten or destroyed by time for any conclusions to be drawn.

3) IF we assume that the other Sand People finds out, it is a further assumption that they will be scared or cowed by this.
It is just as likely that they will get further riled up and want bloody revenge on the settlers and thus we get more violence.
History has shown that atrocities don't always calm people down, the revers can happen.

@ DarthTalonx and Sith Lord 2015

About Solo and this isn't spoilers about the plot.
What this film does is to show life under the empire and it shows such things as;
1) Imperial officers taking bribes, so the Empire is also corrupt.
2) Slavery is still practiced in some places and in fairly considerable numbers.
And the Empire is aware of this but does nothing about it.
3) Crime bosses and syndicates use people in almost slave like fashion or abuse/torture large numbers of people to break their will and make them obedient.
And again the Empire seems aware but does little if anything to stop it.

So the Empire is corrupt and is aware that considerable injustice and suffering is happening but isn't really interested in stopping it. In fact it seems that crime and organised crime under the empire has risen considerably but the empire does not stop it unless it becomes a problem to them and at times seems to work with the syndicates under the table.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface