Del Rey and LFL shouldn't let the real world dictate events in fiction. SxS spoilers

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ludicrous, Sep 14, 2001.

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  1. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    What happened when the NR was forced off of Coruscant? Did that give up and disband? No, they moved their base of operations.

    When Courscant is destroyed, the people of the galaxy will get royaly pissed, and the NR goverment will wake up and start going on the offensive and helping the Jedi.

    And there will still be a ruler over the New Republic. Just because the house is gone doesn't mean that the master is dead. Like I said before, the New Republic will just set up shop somewhere else.

    Of course both of us are just speculating. Neither of us knows what the author's are planing and what will happen.
  2. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    You think that the destruction of Courscant will doom the GFFA. Do I understand you correctly?

    I suppose we are all entitled to our own opinion of what will happen in the future for the GFFA. I will never be able to prove that you are wrong. But then again, there is no real proof to support either of our opinions of what will happen in a completely fictional universe where anything can happen. I think that if it is possible for the Emperor to come back from the dead two or three times, then it is possible for the GFFA to recover from the destruction of Courscant and to do it the way I described.
  3. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    That's another thing we need to think about. Star Wars is fiction, and things in fiction can be a lot different than they are in RL.
  4. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Destruction and falling buildings isn't new to Coruscant. The NR was forced off during Dark Empire which showed a particularly destructive civil war on the planet.
  5. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    That is another thing, we still don?t know that all of Coruscant gets destroyed. It seems to me that DL is hinting at the idea that it doesn?t. Would it be just as bad if the New Republic was simply forced off Coruscant, and in the process the Vong came to the conclusion that the planet was simply to corrupt to even try to change, but they still decided to keep it as a trophy? That would mean that the planet could be taken back, and that their wouldn?t be too much need for reconstruction (I know, it?s unlikely, but it could happen. Fictional universe and all?)
  6. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    It may be that Courscant becomes a paradise for the NR. Remember what the Vong did to Nar Shadda(Or was it the other Hutt world?)? They used millions of probe-things to "eat" all of the metal and technology. After that, it was a beautiful green world. If the Vong do the same thing to Coruscant, all the NR would have to do is take it back, and build some buildings. It could become an Alderaanian-like planet.
  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I can't imagine what sort of sick psychopath would live on a paradise built on the blood of billions.

    Oh yes I can, the Vong
  8. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Edit: Never mind, what I was going to say was inappropriate?
  9. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I really think it's foolish and and unnessescary to destroy Coruscant. We already know how bad the Vong are. I really can't seem them destroying it, just trashing it. If they destroy it, it seems like another arrogant EU storyline to dismiss the films. Coruscant is a major part of SW and shouldn't be destroyed.

    Metal-eating or whatever it is sounds pretty stupid. Coruscant can't lose it's enviroment either.

    In light of what's happened, it would be in very bad taste as well.
  10. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    It's not as if the Vong have any taste in what they do. ;)

    Anyway, I don't see how the Vong could literally "destroy" Courscant. They don't have anything big enough, and there forces are begining to die. They may trash Courscant, but there is no way they could just blow it up. There is the traitor Senator, can remember the name though. He could be used to do something nasty to Courscant.
  11. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    It's not bad taste if it has already happened. We're dealing with a fictional universe here, not fiction based on the real world.
  12. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    Anyway, destroying Courscant would show how mortal the galaxy is. Chewie showed us how mortal the characters are, Coruscant would show us how mortal the galaxy is. It would be a point when we could say, they really might loose this war. I find it exciting, and a bit nerve raking.
  13. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Bear in mind that the book, by this point has already been written. If they change anything because of recent events, and I truly hope they don't, that would delay the whole thing by forcing Denning to rewrite whole segments of the book, and then they'd have to go through editing and whatever. Plus, the book sounds fine to me.
  14. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Charlemagne,
    You refer to tasteless genocide -- yes, genocide is tasteless, but it also happens in war.

    You talk about not being able to imagine sick psychopaths who would live in a paradise built on the blood of millions, and yet there have been human beings, races of them, who have lived that way.

    I agree that the Vong are inconsistently represented, but there is death, destruction, and collateral damage in a large-scale war. And the only logical move for the Vong is to try and take Coruscant, the seat of the Republic's power and prestige, whether or not the location was used in the movies. Besides, it's not any secret that Rick McCallum himself said the Empire's gonna be destroying some Episode I worlds, so there is precedent coming from GL himself.

    And, strange as it may sound, I don't classify the Vong as evil. In fact, I don't believe in evil. The Yuuzhan Vong have a very difference culture and religion. To them, the members of the galaxy are the evil blasphemers, and it's they see it as their job to wipe them out or convert them. And we say that their the invaders, they have no right, while the vast majority of them say, it's their space, granted to them by the Gods, how dare we stand in their way. Sound familiar to any geopolitical situations on earth? Didn't think so.

    As we've seen the Vong are not all perfectly "evil." But the way they live is so different, their social mores so unrecognizable, that of course they'd seem that way.
  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Evil is very classifiable actually.

    It's the lack of love for one's fellow beings.

    The Yzzumng Vong I think you'll notice don't believe for the most part in the "evil" of the Star Wars universe but accept what they've been told just by the rest of them.

    Nom Anor and Shimmra are motivated by Greed it seems not religeous duty.

    Kwando or whatever the Shaper's name is seems motivated by advancing her species and scientiffic curiosity

    Tsavong Lah is motivated by glory.

    The citazens and Shamed Ones seem motivated by simple survival and fear of being destroyed.

    Only Shedeo Shai truly seemed to "believe" in the cause of conversion and he comes off as a religeous fanatic to even fellow Vong.

    No matter how many ways you slice it the Vong are a race just like any other driven to desperate ends.

    However during War while atrocities do happen (the Bible and the "ban" of the Hebrews, Hitler's genocide, the Crusades butchering of Jerusalem) let's not forget these actions come with considerable cost.

    If Coruscant falls the galaxy should lose. If Del Ray wants to play Hardball they better play Hardball right and show us the CONSEQUENCES of such unparralleled destruction as what the Vong have done.

    Half the galaxy has fallen and the Vong have annhilated their technology presumably just like they are doing with the rest.

    Then I want to see a galaxy that is bankrupt, whose cultures have been reduced to wandering vagabonds, and who are willing to kill each other over scraps of bread.

    For centuries to come with the Jedi as the only thing standing in their way and complete barbarism.

    The Old West and Dark Ages reborn.

    NJO has done a good job of showing the decline of the Star Wars galaxy by the Yzzumng Vong but they better have the guts to realize that they push the galaxy far enough it should break.

    and by that they invalidate a Reborn Republic, period
  16. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    But sometimes when you push something, it pushes back. Just because Courscant is gone doesn't mean the the galaxy is bankrupt. They don't use a lot of physical curreny. Most is electric, so people will still have money. Also, if you want an "Old West" stylish thing going on after NJO, the NR has to win against the Vong, which I think they will, and I think that Ben Skywalker will have something to do with it. The back of Rebirth tells up that the Skywalker child will be a beacon of hope.
  17. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Evil is very classifiable actually.

    It's the lack of love for one's fellow beings.


    No, that's not evil. There are two main definitions of evil: being morally bad or wrong. By that definition, there is no universal evil because morals differ from race to race let alone species to species. The other is the cause of destruction, suffering or injury, by which definition the NR is just as evil as the Vong, except for different reasons.

    No matter how many ways you slice it the Vong are a race just like any other driven to desperate ends.

    That's essentially the point I was trying to make. I was trying to get people to stop characterizing a whole race as just an generic "evil" stereotype.

    If Coruscant falls the galaxy should lose. If Del Ray wants to play Hardball they better play Hardball right and show us the CONSEQUENCES of such unparralleled destruction as what the Vong have done.

    Half the galaxy has fallen and the Vong have annhilated their technology presumably just like they are doing with the rest.

    Then I want to see a galaxy that is bankrupt, whose cultures have been reduced to wandering vagabonds, and who are willing to kill each other over scraps of bread.

    For centuries to come with the Jedi as the only thing standing in their way and complete barbarism.


    Not necessarily. The Vong are pushing the NR into a position where they know what they're doing again. For the past twenty years, the NR has been agonizing about budgets, about conflicts that had been suppressed by the greater IMperial threat coming out again, by pirates. And they got used to it but never very good at it. What our heroes are good at and know very well is guerilla warfare, working on a small budget and doing what needs to be done by any means necessary. And based on the Rebel Dream blurb that's what it will come to. Still, what you want is kind of implausible. There are still thousands of worlds in NR space, and as we've seen, the Vong are also stretched very very thin. Even if they're fought to an impasse or completely wiped out or driven out, there will be enough planets for people to survive on without "fighting over scraps of bread." And in a case of total governmental devastation on this scale, a whole new system will come about so that cultures aren't just wandering vagabonds, whatever that means. I don't see why, just because there's been a lot of damage, the galaxy would suddenly revert to barbarism...

    The Old West and Dark Ages reborn.

    What you describe sounds more like the movie versions of the Old West and Dark Ages than the actuality.

    NJO has done a good job of showing the decline of the Star Wars galaxy by the Yzzumng Vong but they better have the guts to realize that they push the galaxy far enough it should break.

    I agree, but it seemed from your tone earlier that you thought differently.

    and by that they invalidate a Reborn Republic, period

    Oh, I'm sure it will be called the NR but in practice it will be something completely different.
  18. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    But the Vong do hate. by your admission, hate is not evil.

    Trust me, good and evil do exist as absolutes. This past week we have seen good defined against evil and vice-versa.
    To disbelieve evil is also to trivialize all the good done this week by people sharing blood, money, and prayers, helping those in great need.
  19. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    If a situation does not convince someone of evil's existence it is tacky to use the situation in allegory to try to do the same where it does not.

    Now that the chiding is done.

    Now some points...

    * Movie versions of the Old West and Dark Ages are appropriate because Star Wars and it's works are movies.

    * Currency is electric which means that the Star Wars universe is almost a cashless society....why the destruction of Coruscant is ten times more devastating than say if the galaxy was operating on "gold coins" or what not.

    The records for cash etc have to exist somewhere....and that somewhere seems like it would obviously be coruscant.

    * I stand by my words that a lack of love is evil. A lack of love is the fundemental basic violation of morality in all cultures and it is something that must be taught and beaten out of people...usually to the point of hypocrisy.

    (Look at Medieval christianity-They still taught love they neighbor just ignored when it conflicted with war)

    The worlds moralities are frankly fairly universal and the same I'm sure is of the galaxy with simply same violations. The Dark and Light sides if you will.

    The Vong are evil because they choose to suppress their love of their fellow beings and fellow vong in order to have their own greed. The fact they are dying may make the act more sympathetic but it is still evil.

    * Hate is evil, Anger is not nor is fear.

    Hatred is when fear and anger because it is a cauterized wound that is not healed properly...it is a condition where the mind is unable to comprehend properly situations on invidiual basis.

    It is predjiduce and a sickness like any disease, probably why Yoda said it leads to suffering.

    * Coruscant IS in the Movies

    I hope you people have seen the Phantom menace because it's better and more important than ROTJ in my opinion.

    * Recoevry

    Certain worlds may recover but the fact is the galaxy as a whole I think will collapse and while a Republic might exist I don't see people gathering under it's banner.

    Any systems which DID gather under it would have to sacafice all of it's wealth to help in the recover of worlds that probably outnumbered it ten times over in suffering.

    In effect they'd have to choose

    10 stranger worlds and 10 times the time it would take for me and my family to recover or 1 world I know and 1 times to recover.

    I'm not saying the galaxy couldn't do this but it's a harsh life.
  20. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Trust me, good and evil do exist as absolutes. This past week we have seen good defined against evil and vice-versa.
    To disbelieve evil is also to trivialize all the good done this week by people sharing blood, money, and prayers, helping those in great need.


    Good and evil aren't absolutes. We have seen the Christian view of good defined against the Christian view of evil. These views are defined by the rules God put in the bible, rules which state what's good and bad, right and wrong, and which have been incorporated into our national thinking because the majority of out population is of the Christian faith. I do not trivialize at all the people who have donated and helped those in need, I laud their efforts and I, too, have contributed. They are helping their fellows.

    However, by the views of whoever was behind the attack, what they were doing was justified by their faith and they believed that they were doing good and would go straight to heaven. I personally think they did the wrong thing, an unnecessary and devastating thing, but to say that they are evil for doing something praised by their beliefs and their upbringing would be to, by extension, label everyone of that faith as evil, simply because they have different beliefs. Their beliefs are different, so they do different things acting on those beliefs, and our beliefs tell us those things are immoral, so we'll just label them all evil.

    Once you've stopped slapping around the term evil then you can focus on goals and reasons and actually get something done.

    Getting back to the original point of this thread, here's my response:

    There's constant death and destruction in the US and the world over. This time it was on a larger scale, and more visible to us than normal.

    Nearly every book is about some form of conflict, many about physical conflict, and many of those about wars. To not publish them is folly. Not only is that just delaying the very escapism we need to distract ourselves, but fake violence, done right, is fun. Like it or hate it, it's a fact about human nature. Everything -- sports, television, books, the news, any form of media or entertainment out there is just about always about violence. And to not get on with life is to accede to the goal of the terrorists in the first place -- to disrupt our lives and make us feel unsettled and unsafe.

    And with more than 1.5 months between the attack and the release of the book, there should be no problem.
  21. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Charlamangn19, how about you wait, read the book, and then condemn it as the worst idea that LFL has ever had. Declaring that a book will ruin the series before the book has even come out is the perfect example of ?jumping the gun?. We don?t know what will happen. All we can be fairly sure of is that something happens on Courscant and the Government is forced to move some where else temporarily. We don?t know that Courscant is destroyed. We don?t know that the galaxy won?t be salvageable.

    This won?t be the first time that a Republic has been forced off of Courscant. It happen when the Emperor came to power. The Vong have not accomplished anything that has not been done before. They are just doing it in a new way.

    Oh, and by the way, your definition for the word evil is incorrect. It means morally reprehensible. Do you think me to be evil for not loving the bug that just bit my little toe? Your definition is too specific. You can look it up if you like here just type evil then hit enter
  22. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    no, what they did is also against the tenets of Islam.
    I have heard it repeated time and and again since the attacks that these men were not true Muslims because that is not what Allah teaches.

    Saying that what these men did is not evil is the equivalent of saying that what all Americans have done in the aftermath is not good. That is belittling to the whole of this event.
  23. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    "I stand by my words that a lack of love is evil. A lack of love is the fundemental basic violation of morality in all cultures "

    So if I don't love my fellow man then I'm suddenly evil. If I'm always kind, generous, whatever, but I don't love them I'm automatically evil? As to your second sentence I don't think that you have any idea what you're talking about. The United States, for example, is not founded on love but on, according to the constitution, equality and everything else embodied by its laws. Judaism is not founded on love but on belief in God, Christianity the same except belief in Jesus. I can't think of any nations or religions in which the principle tenet is to love your fellow man; usually that is kind of tacked on as an afterthought in the context of Do as you would have done.
  24. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Saying that what these men did is not evil is the equivalent of saying that what all Americans have done in the aftermath is not good. That is belittling to the whole of this event.

    You're beating on a dead horse. I've already established that I don't believe in good or evil as absolutes. I have a fairly strong sense of what I believe is right or wrong, and yes I agree that what they did is wrong. But repeatedly telling my that I'm belittling this event because I don't believe in absolutes as based on religious texts isn't going to accomplish anything.
  25. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Jesus embodies love. "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
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