Del Rey and LFL shouldn't let the real world dictate events in fiction. SxS spoilers

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ludicrous, Sep 14, 2001.

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  1. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Your latest post, DL, and the one to which is was responding aren't in anyway contradictory.
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Mastadge I appreciate you have disregarded your belief that no one has no reason for their actions.

    And I appreciate you have an idea some actions are wrong and some are most certainly right.

    However the question does how do you not believe in evil then?

    Evil is the violation of those moral standards in effect the "wrong thing" to my understanding. Evil people are those who have inverted themselves to the point that they do the wrong thing out of hand.

    To quote the Buddah "They follow one of two opposite extremes."

    Usually in pursuit of good.

    What is your defination of evil then?

    ***

    As for love as the foundation of morality I think you are looking too literally at such things.

    Love thy neighbor and I quoteth the Nazarene God (my own one) the greatest commandemnt is "Love God with all your heart and soul" and thus you love all of his creations.

    The fundemental of the Christian faith.

    The equality of all and respect for individuals rights that is the basis of the United States is a reflection of the love that they feel for their citazens and that they make "promises" (covenants if you will) with their citazens because of this love that they will never violate these rights and protect them.

    Thus I believe all law is governed by a universal princible of "Love all as you would yourself"

    Certainly this is ideal and it is wrong not to love another but the idea of loving unconditionally is that you accept this and try to help.

    A person who is a crab and not filled with love is still usually an okay person but do I believe that a person who cares absolutely not for anyone but himself and the only thing he cares about is protecting and enriching himself...

    Even if he hurts nobody else because of A:) Fear of punishment or B:) It will do him no good...

    Do I call this person as evil as the person who slaughters millions out of sadistic desire? Yes.

    because the person loves himself more than he loves the world but only expresses it different.

    He is a parasite on the soul instead of an addition to it.

    Still even a Ebenezzer Scrooge who love themselves is better than a person who loves nothing not even that.
  3. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    If I've learned anything from the NJO, I've learned that if an author cannot write in a story that will flow into the next through subtle character development and elemental influences upon intelligence and personality then they resort to shock value hooks.
    Part of the shot value hooks is death and destruction, something that always grabs the reader's attention. This is because we're seeing characters and places we've come to know and love fall in the midst of a written atrocity, a villain who feeds of the simple fact that they're defined as the ultimate evil.
    The Chewie death (although something I still disapprove to this day) was an instance in which the passing of another character started a new era and introduced new villains who had the power to possibly be greater then those previously faced.
    All of life itself is rising up to meet challenges we've heard about or prepared for. For example: thinking that the Republic would live in peace after the destruction of the Empire is over-simplifying and we would come to the basic assumption that they would face greater foes and inner chaos of political magnitude.

    But the underlying problem with the series is that they never got past stage one, they never provided the characters with stable personas and a regular cast of background personalities to interact with.
    Each book would show them in a different routine and personality from the last, Jacen Solo was never exactly Jacen Solo.
    Some characters came off the exact same as they always do, such as Luke, Leia and Han.
    But because of the incredibly well defined nature of those creations, it's nearly impossible to not write them to their exact representation from previous material.
    To make up for the shaded storytelling it seems they've taken an original suggestion from Lucas and others within LucasFilm to create a climate of anxiety and sorrow which we never really recover from. They're cloning themselves over and over again to continue to shock and amaze us at the cost of actual story evolution.
    It's only natural to assume that eventually in a long running story with many installments (such as Star Wars) they would take a well-known creation and bring destruction to it. It's a simple ideal that would show that things were never going to be the same throughout the continual process of the plot, an event to look forward to which would propel the story into a new age.
    But now we're just being shown the same thing over and over again, Coruscant is just the new level of destruction which the authors continue to write in to take the place of changes in setting and character goals or ambitions.
    We're just being swept from one tragedy to another, and in between all of this we're seeing the characters bounce off one another in angst ridden moments of emotional projection.
    Then of course the healing chapters come along in which characters make it up to one another which leaves the next story wide open for more tragedy and destruction.
    I do not know if I want to continue to read a series that only has sad moments to offer me. If it continues at this pace then I may very well skip out on reading the rest of the New Jedi Order in favor of some of the prequel EU coming down the pike in future releases.

    But, even though I do not appreciate the destruction of Courscant plot, I don't believe that it should be held back now that it has been written down simply because of a cowardly terrorist act.
    We shouldn't be molding our lives and thoughts and feelings around that moment of destruction in our lives, nor should we let stories of enjoyment and escapism become changed because of that.
    The past few days I've talked with many people on various message boards and around the net who simply state that Star Wars and other fictional works remains to be their only escape from all of the disgusting news and mournful remembrance.
    We're witnessing a time in which we are witnessing the first serious act of violence since past wars, and a lot of people need the alternate view of fictional material to take away the reality of these mome
  4. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    >>Jesus embodies love. "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

    True, but it could be argued that Jesus was an ?add on? to the Jewish religion that was so controversial that the religion split into one religion that believed in Jesus and another that did not.

    Mastadge, I agree with you to an extent. However, I do believe that there is evil, but only in actions (those actions being judged by the people affected by them). A person can?t be evil (at least in the eyes of any mortal human) because the word evil is too much of an absolute term. I know I talked about this with some detail somewhere? I find that this belief helps me to think of all humans as good or worthy of my love (dang? that kind of sounds corny? oh well?).
  5. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Charlemagne,
    a hypothetical situation if I may. Say somebody, healthy in mind, loves his fellow humans. But for some reason, he logically concludes that the only way to save their souls is to kill them, and so he kills them out of his love for them? It would seem that by your definition he;s not evil because he;s doing it for their own good.

    True, but it could be argued that Jesus was an ?add on? to the Jewish religion that was so controversial that the religion split into one religion that believed in Jesus and another that did not.

    Jews believe that Jesus existed, we just don't think that he's God. Also, Muslims consider Jesus one of their great Prophets. Jesus was a Jew who was one of many people thought to be the annointed one at that time. The people were desperate for a messiah because of Roman oppression, there were constantly new ones. In purely historical terms, not religious ones, Jesus basically stuck because he had good posthumous PR.
  6. ShadesOfGrey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    I must admit that I like the idea of saving coruscant but i hate the reason. I NJO series has gone too far. Many classic Star Wars locales are being casually destroyed just so the authors can out do each other on who can make the Vong more evil. We get it! They are evil! They have already destroyed more planets than the empire and now they are wiping out classic locations such as Ithor, The jedi Temple and Coruscant. It must end here. But this does not mean the completer fiction, complete fantasy boods should be changed because some little winger thinks that it reminds them of a traumatic event that happened after the book was written. What are they going to do now? Ban books where buildings fall down? That could be a little hard.
  7. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    They invade our space, we fall back
    They destroy entire worlds, we fall back
    The line must be drawn HERE!
    This far, no farther!
    -- Captain Picard referring to the Borg.
    -- The NR referring to the Yuuzhan Vong.
  8. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    About my previous statement regarding Jesus, I said, ?it could be argued?; meaning that it is debatable and could be someone?s point of view. I did not say that that was my personal opinion.

    I think that this topic deserves a well-composed pole. A pole would be less likely to get off topic, and we might get a good idea of what most of the fans on this forum thinks about this subject (delaying SxS, not this Good vs. Evil stuff that this thread has evolved into). What this thread has become is certainly interesting but I am more interested in the original topic. (However, I will not be the one to make the pole.)
  9. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    The authors aren't trying to "out do" each other. The story line and major developments in the NJO were plotted out well before books were written. You don't start a twenty book arc/series without knowing what's going to happen.

    Chewie died to give the NJO a taste of real life. In real life, people die, countries fall, civilzations are wipped out. Just as Courscant will.

    But Courscant will provide the characters and the galaxy itself a rallying point, a single event that will change the face of the galaxy. It will change the pasifest face, to an offensive face.

    People may say that this is in "bad taste," but in war, no one cares about taste.

    EDIT: Fair idea. Hey, DL! Wanna start a poll for us? ?[face_plain]
  10. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I don't want to see the galaxy fall to the Vong. What the hell was the point of the classic trilogy if the galaxy is going to be conquered and destroyed? It was meant to be a happy ending. It was not supposed to lead to a galaxy where the Dark Ages and chaos rain. Del Ray should really get a grip and stop trying to change SW history.
  11. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    you assume Del Rey has more control over the storyline than LFL does.
  12. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    I seriously doubt that the galaxy will fall. The NJO authors are just setting the scene for everything. They've established that the galaxy is being slowly taken over by the Vong, and that everyone is threatened. Now, they introduce Ben Skywalker, the "Shining beacon in the night."

    I assume that in SbS, we will see the single most horrible thing in the NJO, the fall of Courscant. Than, things will start looking up. Something will happen with the Shamed One and Nom Anor, and the Jedi will have to play a major role in this. Duh, it's the New Jedi Order. Anyway, my point is, things look bleak now, but in the end good will prevail.
  13. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I really don't think LFL really cares what Del Ray puts in it's books as long as it's not "dirty." They're just looking to collect a buck.

    I just see no reason for the galaxy to fall and for Coruscant to be destroyed. I can see Coruscant being smashed but not taken away.
  14. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    Who says the galaxy will fall? Yes, Courscant will probably be smashed and fall. I don't know the details, but that's close. Obviously, is Courscant falls, the Vong will take over. It's a very important piece of the galaxy and the New Republic. I sign of power and of technology.
  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    True it broke off.

    But religeon is one of the most causally abused organizations ever. People using it to enforce their own views of hate, enrich their pockets, and prevent change.

    Thus all roads led to God but many people take shortcuts the wrong direction.

    As for the hypothetical situation.

    "Honestly kill people to send them to Heaven"

    One first has to examine that persons' feelings and why he has come to such a conclusion....ninety nine out of a hundred I'd say such a person wasn't honestly believing (and it's a rare case) but in denial of his true motives.

    However if woefully ignorant of life and death and unable to learn past the initial.

    He's just ignorant not evil.

    Like a person on Doctor Who pushing the Red Button which will save a planet but isntead fires the superlaser.

    ***

    If the Vong destroy Coruscant I want a Medeival Dark Ages/Old West I frankly don't think the Yzzumng Vong should be given anything less as a credit to the ammount of damage they've inflicted upon the galaxy.

    A new government might arise in laetr book trilogies and perhaps a "Relena Peacecraft/Mon Mothma" figure to unite the galaxy a hundred or three hundred years down the line
  16. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    Just because one planet falls doesn't mean the end of civilization. So the NR looses it's base of operations. They'll set up a new one. One planet, no matter how large, will not cause the galaxy to fall.

    The most likely thing to happen will be the fall of Courscant will trigger a huge anti-Vong sentiment. The galaxy will unite to force to Vong out. But obviously, that is impossible.

    But remember, we have the Shamed Ones who are leaning towards the Jedi. I think, that Nom Anor will lead a rebellion against the Vong, and overthrow Shimera. In the process, a lot of Vong ships and planets will fall to the NR advance. The Vong will be without a leader, and will have dissent in their ranks.

    Nom Anor won't have the resources to retake the Vong territory, and if he tried, his power-base of Shamed Ones would kill him.

    So, the Vong will leave, and the NR will start the long process of rebuilding.
  17. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Umm, weather or not you belive in absloute evil is sorta meaningless in a Star Wars story, because in SW, there is the Dark Side, which is in most cases absolute evil.

    Also, i am new to these forums, so what is LFL? I am assuming LucasFilm.....

    I tend to doubt that Courscant will be destroyed. Maybe the Vong will be like, so we never forget what we are fighting, or we will never forget their evil. Something like that, just to keep Courscant in one piece. Maybe it gets bombarded or somewhat abandanded, but not destroyed, like a gravety creature draging it to the sun, or something.

  18. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    The Vong don't ahve anything to destroy Courscant. It's too well protected to sneak a dovin basal onto the planet, and they don't have anything big enough to blow it up.

    It will fall. It will be abandoned and left behind by the NR. They will then set up shop somewhere else.

    EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong. The Vong have been growing dovin basal's big enough to take out Courscant's shields. But I don't know how the Vong would implament them. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. SbS comes out in October.
  19. Thejedikiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 3
    Getting back to the point of the topic at hand, I had thought the same thing after seeing the tragedy on Tuesday. I simple answer to this question would be to drop either Del Ray or Lucasfilm LTD. an email asking them whether or noe Star by Star has been postponed due to the recent tragic events. If they say it has, well then there is a bit or evidence that someone decided to rewrite certain scens of the book too similar to what recently occured.
  20. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
    Content of the novel is locked, and won't be changed.
  21. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Good. I was starting to get worried.
  22. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    What does it matter, in any case? It sounds like this book will be 500+ pages of death, destruction, and other misery. I'm starting to dread it, which is sad, because I love looking forward to the next book.

    I'm really turning into a pessimist. It's starting to scare me.... :(
  23. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    Well, you have to remember, there are still alot of books left in the NJO. Just because something bad happens in SbS doesn't mean that the NJO won't have a good ending.
  24. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, but if they kill a lot of people, and destroy a lot of places, they will be gone forever. :(
  25. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    But there's always hope. The New Republic will reach it's darkest hour. But I am more than conident that with the help of the Jedi and the Shamed Ones, the New Republic will be triumphant. Courscant may fall, but it is a place. The New Republic is more than it's planets, it's the people.
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