Demons and evil spirits: Do they exist?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Chris2, Aug 21, 2002.

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  1. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    According to the bible, people are born with a natural tendency toward evil (The inherited "Original sin" of Adam & Eve) until they are baptized.
  2. Gaudior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2002
    star 1
    Even afterwards we have that tendency. ;)

    Yes, demons do exist. To quote Skillet: / I breathe dimensions unknown
  3. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I kind of disagree. People are born with natural animalistic insticts that we label as evil. I guess you could say the acts aren't intrinsically evil, but I would argue some can't control their behavior as well as others.


    uhh....evil is a subjective word, a guy helping poor people could be 'evil' the person calling him such isn't sane though. ;) Man is not created evil, and there is no good or evil. Blah blah blah, all the stuff they teach you is BS. Nuff said. Enviroment decides whether or not you're 'good' or 'evil'.


    Demond and evil spirits do not exist, there has been no proof that they exist. And those 'demonic' possessions are fake, they're either psychotic or in need of some serious attention.
  4. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Demon and evil spirits do not exist, there has been no proof that they exist.

    A lack of proof does not prove nonexistence.

    I personally believe they exist because of my faith, but I have no proof of such, and don't expect to have that proof in this life.

    I also believe that humans are born with the capability to do good or evil and that environment and training are the largest factors in the development toward one or the other. "The devil made me do it" is not a valid arguement given that we have all been granted by God a free will, and we alone are answerable to our own choices and their consequences.
  5. Gaudior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2002
    star 1
    Man is not created evil, and there is no good or evil. Blah blah blah, all the stuff they teach you is BS.

    If there's one philosophical-type arguement I hate the most, it's that "evil is relative".

    So do you think, since Hitler and the Nazis believed slaughtering the Jews was best for mankind, they are somehow justified for their actions?

    Or, since we're on a Star Wars board, let's look at the Empire. They thought they were doing "what's best for the galaxy"; but does that justify the sort of actions they took? Destroying entire planets of innocents? Murder isn't evil? It's 'relative'?

    I'm sorry, but give me a friggin' break.
  6. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think people are born evil. If they become evil, I think it's due to something that happened after birth. I don't see how anyone could look at a baby and then say "people are born evil."
  7. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Of course they exist! I have several of them running on my server right now. All they do is cause trouble.

    Oh, wait, you said demons, not daemons. Sorry about that.

    Yes, "demons" and evil spirits exist. However, I believe that they cannot force you to do anything unless you invite them to control you.

    Kimball Kinnison
  8. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    If there's one philosophical-type arguement I hate the most, it's that "evil is relative".

    Well good for you. I'm sure you'll have a happy life believing that it's not.

    So do you think, since Hitler and the Nazis believed slaughtering the Jews was best for mankind, they are somehow justified for their actions?

    Okay, Hitler and the Nazi's did believe it was in the best interest of mankind. That was their way of rationalizing genocide. And why is it everyone brings up WWII? Is there no other event in history that they can use? I mean really, we all know that Hitler thought he was right in doing what he did. Talk about beating a dead-horse. See in the scheme of things there's something called Point of view and when people use their Point of view different things happen. You suddenly see the world differently. Evil and good are no longer clean cut, they're are just words that were made up to justify a cause. I prefer to look at things differently from everyone else. Why? Because I don't wanna be a sheep. As for justification, no their actions were not justified. This argument is also a damned if you do and damned if you don't question too.

    Or, since we're on a Star Wars board, let's look at the Empire. They thought they were doing "what's best for the galaxy"; but does that justify the sort of actions they took? Destroying entire planets of innocents? Murder isn't evil? It's 'relative'?

    From a certain Point of View, it was. ;)

    Murdering is not evil, it is relative. Is there a difference between killing someone in self-defense and killing someone because you don't like them? The act is still the same, the reasons are the only thing that keep it from being 'murder' or 'sef-defense'. Again Point of View, just because you killed someone in 'self-defense' doesn't make it any more justified than 'murder'. If I ever do a horrible act, well that'll be all me who does it. Not some bogey-man from the land of the dead.

    I'm sorry, but give me a friggin' break.

    Two arms and two legs, pick one. :D
  9. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    I don't believe in absolutes of good and evil. I think good people can sometimes do bad things and bad people can sometimes do good things.

    Everyone has a potential for both... and how they balance the two depends on them and their actions, their convictions.

    I don't believe in blaming everything on an invisible entity that, for all intents and purposes, cannot be proven nor disproven. Ultimately, I take only natural causative factors into account. If a child does "evil" things, there must be some action that instigated it... Even if he is hormonally or genetically prone to manic behavior, there must be a catalyst that draws out that potential and makes it a reality.

    For me, the potential existence of "demons" as anything but personification of the things we dislike about our own nature... is all irrelevant.

    I am guided by my actions and the sum total of outside forces acting upon me, which, combined, determine direct and indirect consequences or outcomes... But unseen outside forces are pointless... because no correlative or causative relationship can be established to say, conclusively and with repeatable cause-effect consistency, "Here's the link between A and B, and here's the evidence to demonstrate it."

    Everyone has to have a symbological construct for things so they can categorize them... I prefer not to think of the unexplainable as "demons", but explainable events for which an explanation has yet to be found.
  10. EvilEmperorJohn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 1
    So, let's define good and evil. Good is "1 a : something that is good b (1) : something conforming to the moral order of the universe (2) : praiseworthy character : GOODNESS c : a good element or portion" and evil is "1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
    2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity". So based on these definitions from Merriam-Webster.com, Good and Evil are not subjective terms unless the word "moral" is subjective.

    So, to Bin Laden and his ilk, along with Hitler and many others in history, they believe what they are doing/have done to be of "moral" taste. But the fact that they know and see that their plans and actions have caused suffering, distress, misfortune, and calamity to others; and they don't care, makes them inherently evil. What are your thoughts?

    In my humble opinion, angels and demons (as most people think of them), were originally conceived from Dante and John Milton who wrote FICTIONAL epic poems about the nature of good, evil, heaven, hell, angels and demons. Granted, the Bible does speak of angels (at most 6 times in the whole of the Bible), there are no mentions of demons. Furthermore, Satan is only mentioned, I think, 3 times by name and one other by "serpent". Revelation is a different story, so don't go into that! Each time Satan was mentioned, he was "the accuser", such as we have prosecutors of Law, so he accused sinners (he was even a member of the Heavenly court in the Book of Job). Also, as such, he was ordered to tempt people - Job with the loss of all he owned, Jesus with bread, power, and wealth.

    Everything that Milton and Dante wrote wound up being absorbed by the Catholic church into doctrine. There is NO canonic-scriptural basis for it.

    That being said, I don't believe in Satan as the Devil or Lucifer or anything else. It seems we have enough Humans to assume the mantle of evil and destruction on the planet.

    I think everyone has good and evil (much like the Ying Yang). Some people are taught how to control the evil and some aren't. For me, I know I have a dark side (I can feel it), but I choose to suppress it because I have been taught to and because I believe more strongly in the good side.

    As for the nature of those locations where violence was attracted and evil felt - it could be that those souls were so black with evil and hatred that their essence remains, felt by your and other's souls.

    I don't believe in demons and angels. Why would God need angelic servants? Why would the devil need demons? Both, according to popular myth and modern accounts, are powerful enough to work in the world on their own.

    I don't think everything in the universe can be explained. At best, loose theories can be formed, but no concrete evidence to support them - just as religion requires Faith, so does some ares of science. Perhaps there is a scientific, rational explanation for really evil kids or people. Maybe bad parenting?

    Any thoughts?
    EDIT: I stand corrected - my apologies. I must have been thinking of the number of times an angel was named (i.e. Gabriel). At best, the Bible refers to "the angel(s)" of the Lord, not to a specific angel except Gabriel and perhaps one or two others. That is what I meant. Point is, much of the myth of angels and demons has been elaborated on in extra-canonical literature - and fiction at that.

    You are correct. I should have done my research. I sorry! *blends into the background, with sorrowful look on face* :(

    EDIT 2:
    What's worse is that I was a Religious Studies major in college! You'd think I'd know better than to present an idea without some references to back it up. :p/>
  11. Gaudior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2002
    star 1
    Granted, the Bible does speak of angels (at most 6 times in the whole of the Bible), there are no mentions of demons.

    That's interesting, I count 46 verses mentioning demons from my Bible's index alone. And those indexes are never even complete! ;) Likewise, there are 21 verses back here mentioning angels. Hmmmmm. Want me to type a few up?

    C'mon, do some research before you make such statements.

    As for bad parenting, I know people who have had some of the worst imaginable childhoods, and are genuinely great people...we're all prone to do wrong, it's simple as that. As CS Lewis said, "Every sin is the distortion of an energy breathed into us..."
  12. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    I think Evil is learned.
    I think that environment has a lot to do with Evil. I think that the people you interact with has a lot to do with it. I think that your upbringing has a lot to do with it, the guidance you recieved from your parents. I also think we are all tempted by spirits that roam the earth, but we can refrain if we want to. I think that if someone grew up on an island with only animals and trees, no interaction with humans at all, he/she would be rather innocent of a lot of evil/evil ways that has been learned through the centuries.
  13. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Actually many behavioral scinetists are now of the belief that violence can be attributed through nature rather than nurture. Murder, rape, and violence are found in every society in the world. It's not that man is essentially evil, but he is genetically programmed for violence. Only through societal influences can man not lead a life of violence, and even that doesnt seem to work. Humans are violent territorial animals like our closest relatives the Chimpanzee.
  14. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Actually many behavioral scinetists are now of the belief that violence can be attributed through nature rather than nurture. Murder, rape, and violence are found in every society in the world. It's not that man is essentially evil, but he is genetically programmed for violence. Only through societal influences can man not lead a life of violence, and even that doesnt seem to work. Humans are violent territorial animals like our closest relatives the Chimpanzee.

    No offense to the poster, this is to the idea, but that is the stupidest thing I've ever read/heard in my life. It ranks right up there with MYTHICAL beings controlling your life, but c'mon, how do they know mankind is predisposed to violence? That's like a link between violence in the media and violent acts. Also, animals, believe it or not, are more civilized than humans. Why? What other species kills for the fun of it? Answer. NONE! That's right, no species on earth kills for the hell of it. We HUNT animals like their fricken trophies. Where's the last Zebra head you've seen mounted in dirt in a lion's den?

    I posted this in my George Carlin appeciation thread. But it has relevance here. Sorta. Without going too much off-topic. And I apologize, just trying to get my viewpoint across.

    IF ONLY WE WERE HUMAN

    This species is a dear, hateful, sweet, barbaric, tender, vile, intelligent, confused virtious, evil, thoughtful, perverted, generous, greedy species. In short, great entertainment.
    As I said before, humans are the only species that systematically tortures and murders its own for pleasure and personal gain. In fact, we are the only species that systematically tortures and murders its own, period.
    We are serial killers. All our poems and symphonies and oils on canvas will never change that. Man's noble aspect is the aberration.
    Those who argue that art and philosophy are proof of human worth neglect to mention that, in the scheme we have devised, artists and philosophers are completely powerless and largely without prestige. Art, music, and philosophy are merely poingnant examples of what we might have been had not the priests and traders gotten hold of us. Most animals when fighting one of their own, will show aggressive behavior, but very little hostility or intention to harm. And when the outcome of the struggle is inevitable, the losing animal will signal its defeat by exposing its most vulnerable part to the victor, affording the opportunity to finish the kill. The victor then walks away without inflicting further harm. These are the creatures we feel superior to.

  15. Lieutenant Tschel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 2
    I've seen housecats kill gophers, birds, mice, etc. just for the hell of it. They even torture the thing before they deliver the coup de grace, breaking legs and batting clawed paws at it.

    If they do it, there's every reason to believe that their relatives in the wild would do it, and why only cats? Surely wolves and other more advanced predators would follow suit.
  16. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Polar bears also kill for fun.
  17. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Think their own species people.
  18. Lieutenant Tschel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 2
    Ok, Lions for example. If a different male takes over a pride all the cubs that were fathered by the previous male are killed.


    And anyway, that's not what you said. You mentioned a Zebra's head mounted in a Lion's den.
  19. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Coming from a background of two vet parents, and the fact that my mother is also a animal behaviouralist. She said that Cats are the best example of an animal which kills for fun. Cats are reknown for bringing small dead animals home, simply because they liked the thrill of the chase and they don't want to eat them.

    As for the trophy thing, look at at what they bring home. If you've ever owned a cat you'll know that they bring home stuff like birds and mice....once again, not to eat but to show you what they've killed and how proud they are of killing it.

    However, back to the original question. Yes, I believe in spirits. Not evil spirits neccessarily and not neccessarily demons either, but I do believe that there is something out there.
  20. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Ok, Lions for example. If a different male takes over a pride all the cubs that were fathered by the previous male are killed.

    I'm guessing that has more to do with dominence than fun.

    I don't think any animals kill others of their own species for fun.
  21. Lieutenant Tschel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 2
    Well you don't too often see humans killing each other for fun either....

    When they do it's because there's something screwed up with them, it's not normal.
  22. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Yes. It's SCREWED UP. People are not born with evil instincts.
  23. Lieutenant Tschel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 2
    Well, *I* never said they were. I think people are born morally ambiguous
  24. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Well, others in this thread seem to think so.

    I think people are born sorta morally ambigious, but I think the lean towards good is greater.
  25. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Actually humans hunting for fun is not too far off from our primieval origins. If you look at the Ache people of the Paraguayan rain forest you can see an example as to why this activity is ingrained. Anthropologists Kim Hill and Hillard Kaplan found that Ache women are most attracted to the best hunters. this is true even if the women can manage only an adulterous relaationship with these men. Ache hunters supply 87% of all calories consumed. hunters with shotgubs are the most succeddful. Not only do they raise their catch form 910 calories to 2,360 calories per hour of hunting, women seek them most often as mates or lovers. In contrast, mediocre Ache hunters rarely can find a qwoman willing to marry them. For Ache men, shotguns are the equivalent of a 6 figure salary among North American men, bnoth grupos have access to sex with more partners than do their less wealthy peers.
    Children of good Ache hunters do have a higher survival rate than those of mediocre hunters. The sam eholds true for professional parents in England; their adolescent children averaged two inches taller and also matured earlier tyhan those of unskilled laborers. In short women seem to know what they are doing at least where their children's health is concerned when they seek men with money. Hunting in men is way of showing ones prowess and being able to support the offspring of the female.
    you seem to forget that the brain is multi layered. We do not sloely act upon are reasoning ability. We also act on unconcious desires produced by millions of years of mamalian evolution.



    In regards to your comment how my statement was the stupidest thing you ever read, you obviously did not take too much time to think about the subject. And besides the animlas mentioned who kill for "pleasure" (the reasoning behind these animals killing for pleasure is to hone their hunting skills or to help theior offspring hone their hunting skills, or in the case of infanticide the male will kill the offspring of a newly acquired mate to speed up his chances of mating and to eliminate rivals to his offspring for the mother's devotion) many species of toothed whale including dolphins. Violence is present across the board for every society on earth.
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