Destiny of the Chosen One

I'm not sure if there is already a thread on here or not. But I do know this has been discussed before (I have mainly discussed it in the 3SA forum, now dead). Anyway here we go:

The Prophecy of the Chosen One was that he would bring Balance to the Force. That much is known. The Jedi have inferred this means "destroy the Sith". Thus Obi-Wan saying "You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them." But maybe Obi-Wan had it wrong. What if Anakin was supposed to join the Sith?

It is clear that the Jedi are not all they claim to be. They are very formulaic and routine in how they treat the Force and training New Jedi. During the days of the Old Republic, a potential Padawan had to have his "Force Potential" measured by means of a Midichlorian Count. The Jedi of the Old Republic Era were cocky and self-centered.

Now to my point. The Force not only intended Anakin to destroy the Sith, but the Jedi as well. Both the Jedi and the Sith had been focusing on power and the galaxy and forgotten what was actually important: The Force. The Jedi and the Sith had to be brought back down to the basics. They had to start over again. They had to be taken off of their high horse. This is what Anakin was for, and he succeeded.

Anakin brought the Jedi to their knees and showed them the truth. This was his destiny, and it paid off. Clearly in the OT, Ben and Yoda have very different views on the Force. They treat it more as an unknown power that has its own will and is unlimited instead of something that can be measured. Neither Obi-Wan or Yoda bothered to give Luke a Midichlorian test, because they realized they were wrong. They were not to choose who would become a Jedi or not, the Force would.

So there you go. It is my belief that is was Anakin's destiny to bring both the Sith and the Jedi down, in order to truly bring balance to the Force.

Discuss.

 

I'll buy that in part. I can see that it was Anakin's destiny to destroy both the Jedi and the Sith. The Jedi had become stagnant and arrogant. I don't so much buy the medichlorian thing. They didn't test him b/c it wasn't necessary (nor did they probably have the means to do so). They already knew he was the son of Anakin Skywalker and that he would be powerful (or they could have tested both children shortly after childbirth).

 

Yeah they do know who his father is, but does the Force always travel along to future generations? I believe they just listened to the Force, and felt just how strong it was with Luke, instead of actually training him.

 

Well they did train him, when the time was... ahhhh... I see where you're going with this.

 

I actually meant to say testing. But I would like to know what you were thinking.

Let me guess:

They waited until the time was right. They waited until the Force delivered Luke to Obi-Wan, instead of them seeking Luke out.

 

That previously the Jedi followed a strict code of begining training from a very young age. Yoda didn't want to train Anakin b/c he was too old. With Luke they actually trusted in the Force and waited until it showed them that the time was right.

When that was done Luke wasn't bound by the dogma of the old Jedi. He could go on restarting the Jedi order but less restricted by the rules of the old Jedi Order. Instead he would have to trust his instincts and rely more on feeling the Force.

 

My point exactly. Less influence from JEDI, more influence from the FORCE.

 

They could have done it when he was a baby. In any event it seems to be assumed by certain characters that Luke would have Anakin's potential. ( also by GL )

 

Yes, there are strong reasons to believe that, and it makes a lot of sense. Actually, I read something similar here years ago, but dont' remember who said it, indeed, GL may even have indicated it on some occassion...

 

This makes it sound like the Jedi are tantamount to the Sith.
The Jedi were arrogant. They were detached. So what???
You try being the volunteer police force of a galaxy full of ********.

 

Maybe I need to clarify myself. The Sith were evil, an abomination to the Force, they needed to be destroyed.

But I believe the Jedi needed to be taken back down to their roots. They needed to be shown that they are just as susceptible to destruction as the Sith were.

 

If that is the case then "the will of the force" is pretty nasty. I mean for all their faults, the Jedi were well meaning, compassionate people who were trying to do what was right for the galaxy, not greedy, power-hungry warlords who wanted to take over and rule the galaxy like the Sith. If the "force" is a conscious entity which thinks it is o.k. to have such people massacred and that they are no better than the Sith, than the force itself is kind of evil, or at least has some serious issues and cannot be seen any longer as a force for good.

 

The Force is only as good as the will of the people, I think.

Let me throw this in there:

If the Jedi do the bidding of a Sith lord for over a decade, regardless of whether they realize it, what does that make them?

Sith?

 

Good is a point of view, is it not?

I believe the Force is working for the Greater Good. The Jedi were stuck up, narrow-minded, and dogmatic (as Palpatine so rightly put it). They thought they were teh stuff, they thought they had the ultimate say on who is trained and who is not. They spoke for the Force, instead of the Force speaking for themselves.

 

Great, so they should all just be killed; never mind that they kept the peace for 1,000 years. They may have been missguided, but they were not evil in intent; they were trying to do good; the same is not true of the Sith.

 

"All who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi."

I believe Palpatine was telling the truth here. Even though the Jedi were "good", they thought they were better than they actually were. They had to be shown that even they could be destroyed.

 

Exactly. They were trying to do good.

The way I see it, the will of the Force is just a reflection of the will of everyone in the galaxy, since the Force itself is an energy field created by all living things and such.

How could the Jedi have been wiped out if the Force looked upon them favorably?

The same goes for the Sith later on, mind you.

If you do the bidding of a Sith lord, your intent flies out of the window.

SW suggets that identifying the evil within oneself is of significant importance, right?

The Jedi failed miserably at this, and that's why they were destroyed.

In the PT, Palpatine makes sure to never really *do* anything. He tempts and teases, but all of the evil things that happen are the result of the conscious actions of everyone but the Sith!

It's the action that counts...

That's why Palpatine fails in the end. He becomes an arrogant fool doing evil without the added benefit of having a dualistic persona that cancels out his own "good" and "evil" acts.

Sorry if that last part doesn't make any sense. I've discussed it before and have recieved a ton of flak, but my basic point is that Palpatine doesn't deserve to die in the PT because he technically doesn't do anything wrong *yet*. IF he does do something considered wrong, he balances the "evil" act with a "good" one from his other persona. He remains neutral by technically fighting himself, thereby confusing the will of the people, and thus, the Force, into having contradictory desires. It's not his fault if everyone wants him dead and alive simultaneously, is it? Well, he's "responsible," but that doesn't justify their actions.

The PT Jedi *are* Sith because they do everything the Sith lord wants!

If the Sith and the Jedi ARE similar in almost every way, the only main difference is their allegiance to a particular order. The Jedi are allied with the Sith. EVERYONE is allied with the Sith.

That's why the morality in the PT is so screwed up and interesting.

How can you claim to be "good" when you're working for your arch-nemesis?

 

How could the Jedi have been wiped out if the Force looked upon them favorably?

Same reason that good people are killed and suffer tragedy in real life. Freedom of choice. God has a Will of His own, but He doesn't enforce it on us. So it could be that the force has a will too but doesn't enforce it on the population.


How can you claim to be "good" when you're working for your arch-nemesis?

All the Jedi were forced to do was fight droids and separtists, who were enemies of the republic regardless of who was leading the republic.

 

Argh! The Force does not make one invincible! See AOTC or Greg Bear.

He does a lot more than "tempt" and "tease". ( When does he tease, for crying out loud??? ) He orders. Things like wars and the execution of innocents.

For some reason, you seem to be in denial of Palpatine's evil. It's like you watched a completely different set of films. Maybe he's your favorite character or something? I have no idea, but you're apparently unable to hold him accountable for any of the murder and mayhem he instigated in the galaxy during his rise to power.

And here all along I thought being a Sith had something to do with using the dark side.
Boy, was I off base.

This moral relativism with regards to the Jedi and the Sith is getting disturbing.

 

I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean.

 

I think you guys are starting to confuse good and evil with the will of the Force to be balanced. If the Force has a light and Dark side, then it would be neither good nor evil. The Force works just as well for Palpatine as it does for Yoda. If you try to apply human morality to it, it won't work.

 

"Argh! The Force does not make one invincible! See AOTC or Greg Bear."

That has nothing to do with anything I said. The Force is inextricably linked to destiny. It partially controls one's destiny but also obeys one's commands, right? The Jedi were destined to fall.

"He does a lot more than "tempt" and "tease". ( When does he tease, for crying out loud??? ) He orders. Things like wars and the execution of innocents."

A tease is a provocation, and that's Palpy's specialty. Nobody has to obey him during TPM, and the Jedi willfully submit to his suggestions in AOTC and ROTS. The same goes for the Separatists.

"For some reason, you seem to be in denial of Palpatine's evil. It's like you watched a completely different set of films. Maybe he's your favorite character or something? I have no idea, but you're apparently unable to hold him accountable for any of the murder and mayhem he instigated in the galaxy during his rise to power."

For some reason, you don't understand what I said. Palpatine/Sidious doesn't do anything besides "sitting" and "waiting" in the PT. He makes suggestions to others, and against their better judgment, they do evil things.

Oh, he's evil, but his ACTIONS aren't. He's the most passive character around. Yoda's Jedi ideal...

"And here all along I thought being a Sith had something to do with using the dark side.
Boy, was I off base. "

Yep.

"This moral relativism with regards to the Jedi and the Sith is getting disturbing."

It is distubing that the Jedi were actually Sith, you're right.

Here:

Everyone in the Republic is against Sidious and supportive of Palpatine.
Everyone in the Separatist movement is against Palpatine and supportive of Sidious.
Palpatine and Sidious are the same person.
Palpatine/Sidious is a Sith.
Sith are "evil."
Everyone is against and supportive of the Sith.
Everyone is "good" and "evil."
Everyone's opinion regarding Palpatine/Sidious and the war is manifested into the will of the Force.
Since everyone's opinion regarding Palpatine/Sidious and the war is ambiguous, the Force is *balanced* toward Palpatine/Sidious.
The Jedi willfully do what the Sith says.
The Separatists willfully do what the Sith says.
The Jedi and the Separatists commit "evil" acts.
The Jedi and Separatists are destroyed as punishment for their "evil" acts.
The indifferent populace is fine.
Palpatine/Sidious is fine.

There are some kinks, but how can you defend the Jedi? Because they were fighting against the evil Sith? Well, they were also fighting for the evil Sith...





He cheats the cosmic system of the Force!

How can he be truly good or evil if he's not the one doing anything? He's "evil" in the sense that he's plotting galactic domination, but nobody has to go along with it. He never coerces anyone. No, really. HE NEVER COERCES ANYONE. Actions speak louder than words...

Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?

The fool who follows him, or course.

Everyone in the galaxy is a fool! They all follow a Sith lord and do what he wants. He wants to fight HIMSELF!

If you're playing a game of chess by yourself, against yourself, what's going to happen? The difference with Palpatine/Sidious is that his pieces can CHOOSE to move. He just knows that, in the end (of the PT), he'll be the only one left standing!

The war is a ruse, but Palpatine/Sidious is, in essence, destroying himself and his galaxy.

Since the Force comes from living things, and has a "will," I assume that it's the collective will of the people. Is that 100% for certain? No, but it seems to be the case. People who make pre-emptive strikes and commit evil acts in SW always get their comeuppance, and Palpatine/Sidious gets his in ROTJ WHEN HIS TACTICS CHANGE.

Confused still? Me too.

 

It's about the clones. The Jedi out of all the people in the galaxy should have known better than to take command of cloned slaves. The clones are children that have had everything taken from them and not only that they're forced to kill and be killed. If there is some kind of god looking down on the story of Star Wars, do you think that it would think that's a good thing for the mortals to be doing? When the clones kill the Jedi it is poetic justice, divine wrath, karma or whatever you want to call it. Those are children killing children. The clones are only ten years old and they're shown killing ten year old Jedi. The Jedi should have never been training children at such a young age in the first place, that's the point of Luke's story, but remember you don't believe Star Wars has depth.

 

It makes them deceived and they attempt to make up for what they had done by moving to destroy Palpatine.

The Jedi are fully aware that they can be killed, Qui-Gon says as much. I do agree that it gave the Jedi a greater sense of humility, but I don't think it was necessary.

Anyway, Bringing Balance to the Force = Destruction of the Sith. Lucas himself has said as such.

 

I meant Jedi as in the Jedi Order, not an individual Jedi.

And I would like to see GL's quote. Not that I don't believe you, but I want to see exactly what he says.