Lit Destroy this temple: Luke Skywalker and the rebuilding of the Jedi

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"Luke... the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned." ​

- Jedi Grandmaster Yoda, upon his deathbed​

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Whee! In this thread, we shall discuss the Force, philosophy, religion, the dubious wisdom of the Jedi in the PT era, and most of all...the rebuilding of the Jedi Order post Return of the Jedi. What do we know? How do we speculate? What do we hope or believe?

Is the man in that photo really suited to all of this?

Here's the current state of this discussion, from the Rebels thread.

THAT'S A WHOLE LOTTA QUOTES!!!!​

 

It doesn't matter how much Luke is suited or not for the task of rebuilding the Jedi - it is his job, because there is nobody else.

And I think rebuilding the Jedi would have gone better, if Luke had followed his own instincts combined with a healthy measure of caution and common sense (and discussed his ideas and intentions for their merits and possible downsized with other people (Leia, Han, Ackbar) and also been willing to listen to their POVs). Instead of that he spends several years in the old EU on trying to find out how the OJO worked (and Luke himself admits, that he largely screwed up with his first batch of students) and by the time post-NJO his New Jedi Order has turned into a near identical copy of the OJO. Thank you for that, Troy Denning.

The NuCanon isn't much better so far in that Luke goes off on his own and when he starts training students he does so isolated from the rest of the universe. Not much better. If you are a group in exile and are ignorant or isolated from the events of the world outside even small matters can become or at least appear to be huge issues (like theological disagreements about the Force), which lead to shism. All it takes then is a little push and you end up with the Knights of Ren slaughtering their former comrades. The "Lord of Flies" sends his regards.

 

Corran's a bit less critical than Luke himself was:

"Couple of points here. You were trained to be a Jedi Knight, and you have become a Jedi Master. I accept that and respect you for all you've been through and learned. What you've done I never could do."

"Despite all that, there's no guarantee you're going to be an ace at teaching, especially the first time out. That said, you've done a fine job with the majority of the students. Even tossing Gantoris, me, Mara, Cilghal and Kyp into the mix, your first class only has three failures out of fifteen. That's only a twenty percent failure rate, and I don't think Mara was really a failure. Me, neither."

 

Again, passing on what he has learned might actually be, "You know, the Jedi Order in and of itself actually led to a lot of problems. Perhaps I need to learn the roots where everything went wrong, and see if an actual Jedi Order is really the thing I need to be spending my efforts rebuilding." - the "Quick and Easy" path might actually have been "start training before this research has been done".

Luke doesn't just want to 'get the job done', he wants to get the job done RIGHT. His Exile isn't a sign of giving up, it's a sign of deciding that he can't let anything else distract him from his ultimate goal, which he likely sees as even more important and essential now.

 

Maybe in nu-canon Luke doesn't start training students until sometime around 25 ABY

 

I don't think people should necessarily be too critical of Luke's attempts and failures of restarting the Jedi Order. Nothing is going to be perfect the first time around (especially when you are trying to do it all on your own) and regardless of the fact that Yoda trained him Luke still basically took a crash course in becoming a Jedi.

It's going to take several reiterations before they finally get things right and will likely take hundreds of years. They build it, find out what kinks they have in the armor, and do their best to improve. If they go on the path I think they will Luke will go down in history as the one that killed the Emperor and Vader and turned the tide of the war. Rey will be the one who will go down in history as the founder of the New Jedi Order. And the 'founder' will be all that she will be remembered as. Even she won't be credited with getting things right. That is going to take hundreds of more years after seeing all the successes they had and failures they had.

 

I still think people are mostly unfair to the Old Jedi Order.

 

Luke should be the one rebuilding the jedi order, and go down in history as the biggest grand master of all time, or something like that. The jedi with the whole package and legendary, rather than only the accomplishment of turning the tide of the war.

 

Nah.

 

While many people have developed that opinion through all the years of theorizing over what would come next in reality the only thing Yoda told him to do was pass on what he had learned. And if he successfully trains Rey than he would have done what Yoda told him to do. As much as many of us would like to think that Luke eventually became a great Grandmaster and all that fun stuff Yoda never told him to become that. All Yoda said was to not let his training die with him.

 

The Old Jedi eventually made the fatal mistake of tying themselves too closely to the Republic, but for most of their existence this made sense. It was the flaw that Palpatine exploited, but it only makes sense as something exploitable if up until that point it had mostly served the Jedi. There's little evidence that the Jedi were corrupt, or ineffectual, disconnected, or were habitually falling short of their ideals. Anakin challenges their orthodoxy, which is why he causes ruptures in the Jedi leadership as to how he should be dealt with, but they are ultimately not wrong about him. Luke can learn from their mistakes, but they're not a totally reprehensible organization. There's a reason Luke wants to be more like them, and why we're meant to mourn their loss.

 

Yes I know, but regardless of what Yoda said, I'd still want him to be this legendary grand master who was capable of doing incredible things and accomplished much.

 

I don't care much. They're two separate universes. Disney Canon Luke and EU Canon Luke are two separate people that have lived the same lives right up to the destruction of the first Death Star. Everything changes afterwards because of the divergences in Disney Canon from Legends.

As for the Old Jedi, much like the Republic after Ruusan, they became complacent. The Old Jedi for their thousands year history weren't always so dogmatic. This change happened during the Ruusan Reformation. I wouldn't be surprised if the Banite Sith had a hand in the reformation itself to weaken the Republic and Jedi for the eventual planned revenge.

 

I kind of feel like he spends the years immediately after Endor being the Space Indiana Jones, running around and finding Jedi artifacts (and trees, as seen in Shattered Empire). This really is wise, because he's increasing his own knowledge so he can be a more effective teacher. It's basically what he's been doing already even in pre-ESB sources like the Star Wars Marvel comic, Weapon of the Jedi, and even some in HTTJ. Yes, I know that's not a popular idea because people want him to be running around in action with Han and Leia. However, I think that Luke, out on his own and gathering Jedi artifacts and learning, is much more in-line with the character we're presented with in ROTJ. He loves his friends, he'd do anything for them, but he's aware he has his own journey that he must travel.

Then, several years thereafter, we might see Luke doing a little bit of teaching with Leia (we know he's already taught her some basics from Life Debt, and Bloodline implies some as well, IIRC). Eventually I believe he'll start gathering his students on Tatooine or Devaron and teaching them there. By the time Ben's a teenager it seems that Luke has already become established as a teacher since Han and Leia send Ben off to Luke's Temple. However, what will be most interesting will be seeing at what point Luke's Jedi were at when Ben and the Knights of Ren slaughtered them. Did any of them have lightsabers yet, for example? Did Ben, even, or was his crossguard saber his first one? If they didn't, it makes sense that Ben and the KOR would've waited until Luke was not present to kill them all; they'd have been easy pickings.

Either way, Luke's training in canon will be a lot different than in Legends, I'm sure. It already is, dramatically so. But speaking personally, I'm really excited to see where it goes (and, of course, where he takes Rey and any future Jedi, as well).

 

I feel like with that title, there's a really funny img meme someone could edit together by putting 1980's politicians heads on the Knights of Ren.

 

Yeah, that's true. The difference between the the Jedi during the Fall of the Republic in comparison to those like Lord Hoth or Valenthyne Farfalla are quite different.

 

It's ironic but the 'hardline warrior feudal lord' type Jedi seemed more reasonable than the 'toned down' version we got in the Prequel era. I stand by that the Ruusan Reformation was a huge mistake. Reduce the army and navy since it isn't war-time? Sure. Completely abolish it and make the Supreme Chancellor essentially powerless to stop in-fighting between systems to the point where the Republic is almost non-existent? That's like, begging to be taken down or taken over. If the Army of Light wasn't abolished but instead reformed (and reduced for peace-time, of course) into the Army of the Republic and the Jedi Order kept their more normal relations with the Republic and the Republic's citizens, then I don't think the Banite Sith's Grand Plan would've been very successful.

 

Not sure how that could be the case - it was by dominating the military that Sidious took over.

Furthermore, I think becoming entangled with the military in the way they were when they led the Army of Light is part of the above, and what brought the Jedi down.

 

Dominating a military 100% loyal to his commands and a hardline conservative officer establishment? Not exactly hard. Dominating a military that holds loyalty to the ideals of democracy and liberty? You're going to have a harder time. Also with no disbanded military, you wouldn't have had the resentment of people like Tarkin and Sienar that drove them into Palpatine's camp.

Also I'm not saying the Jedi should lead the military, rather the military should've gone back to being the regular Republic Army and Navy. The Jedi should've hold up the morals they had at the time and being open to leading when the time calls for it, not becoming isolated in a (literal) ivory tower.

 

The Separatist crisis was engineered to give hardliners the power, though - they didn't enjoy that position previously. I wonder how, in canon, the Republic maintains order prior to the Clone Wars. Is it always through third-party negotiators/sector forces?

 

Admiral Trench's blockade of Malastare was supposed to take place before the clone wars - given that Anakin talks about it as "military history".

And was eventually broken by a "Jedi-led task force". Could be the Judicial Forces fleet, or maybe it could be that the defence fleets of nearby worlds were requisitioned by the Republic and gathered together into a task force.

 

Well I guess there's always been the Judicial Forces, but I think if the Republic had military grade capital ships we'd know about them by now. So was Yularen just a Republic officer, or was he an officer in a smaller military, or was he a Republic officer commanding local militaries? Presumably the Gran would have an interest in this fight?

What's unclear to me is the exact nature of the Jedi's relationship to the Republic military/diplomatic hierarchy. They seem to be partnering with the Republic, but not necessarily at its command. Tying the Jedi to the military - and so placing them under his control - seems to have been part of Palpatine's purpose in engineering the war, and certainly part of his effort to get Anakin on the council.

 

So here's a question: why do we think things like the Force Tree were so important to Luke to find?

 

We may get more insight into this from Rogue One and the very idea of Jedha as the Mecca of the Force/Jedi. It's clearly a location of great significance, artifacts of great significance aren't beyond the pale. Whatever the Empire is up to in the occupation of Jedha may be a clue. I hope they are twisting the religion to their own ends, personally. For Palpatine as Dark Lord of the Sith and Emperor to twist and make a mockery of the religion rooted in the Jedi to suit his own purposes would be welcome, to me.

It would also be a very familiar parallel to my own religious experience, as I view the Saudi brand of "Islam" to be a twisted forgery that they sell by way of their occupation of our Holy Cities.

 

Reminds me somewhat of the Jensaarai. I'm curious whether what we see on Jedha is the Church of the Force. Your comment also brings to mind that it's likely that Luke learned a great deal about the Jedi directly from the Empire.

It seems that Luke's order were in seclusion, which absolutely makes sense to me, as I imagine after so much warfare Luke will prefer quiet and solitude, a contemplative life. Yoda was big on the whole "Jedi aren't warriors" thing. It's striking to me that it seems Luke's new Jedi didn't have lightsabers yet, and that Kylo may have been the first to strike out on his own to build one. This seems as likely to have been a philosophical concern as a practical one.