Saga Details on Leia remembering her mother.

Luke and Leia aren't the same people, however. And they have vastly different life experiences. Leia followed a path much more similar to her mother's than Luke did. Also, Force visions don't really seem to have anything to do with choice. I doubt Anakin really wanted to see his mother's suffering. If anything, the only thing I can think of that would influence it is if one was preoccupied with a subject (such as if Anakin was worried about his mother). To me, it makes sense that Leia would think of her mother much more often than Luke given that she is following a similar career path and is raised by someone who knew her far better.

You say that visions can give you memories such that you can get memories of your great grand father even though you have never met him. Well, it's certainly possible. If you can see the future, why not the past? It just doesn't seem like there's much choice or control involved. However, given that Leia did meet her mother (although she was exceedingly young) it's a moot point.

I don't know about that. What she describes doesn't sound very concrete, which is what I associate with memories. Even memories I have from when I was about 3 generally include physical points of orientation. I remember the walls of the apartment we lived in, the smell of the hallway, my mother reading me a story. Leia's sound really, really generalized -- "she was beautiful, kind, but sad." There's none of the specificity that comes with recounting a distinct memory. What she describes is more of an impression.

Plus, her being a newborn is kind of a moot point since she may sense these aspects of Padmé through the Force. And by the time she senses it, she would be mature enough to understand.

Ah, but it's not clear cut. Anakin thought he was just dreaming, but he was clearly having visions of his mother. It's possible for these to be confused. Luke, when he saw Leia and Han suffering, was unsure of what he was seeing and had to be told that it was the future. Given that, it's not impossible that Leia, as a child, could have visions of her mother as she slept and believe they are memories. Leia was with her mother when she died after all. It's possible that that left quite a subconscious mark on her, especially given the trauma of the recent birth.

I'm saying it's illogical to believe that, in a universe where the Force exists, that one can see visions of the future, but one can't have visions of the past. Leia was not a stranger to Padmé. She was with her when she died, even if she was just a newborn child. You're asking me to believe that it is impossible that she remembers her mother when, in the Star Wars universe, it is possible to have visions of things that have not yet happened. And, in some cases, that will never come to pass. You're artificially placing limits on Leia's ability to recall her mother when Yoda says, "through the Force things you will see…other places…the future…the past…old friends long gone." Yoda clearly establishes that you can see the past and people who are long gone.

Perhaps because Luke and Leia aren't the same person? The lived different lives and experienced different things. Why did Anakin have visions of his mother dying while Obi-Wan never saw Qui-Gon dying? Everything in the films indicates that Luke and Anakin never consciously reach out for visions. At most, they are concerned or thinking about the people who are the subject of their visions, but that doesn't mean they can be sure of what they mean and whether or not they are real. Padmé cast a far greater shadow over Leia's life than Luke's -- Leia grew up with one of her colleagues, Luke grew up with people who met her for less than 24 hours. Leia worked as a Senator in the same building that her mother did, in the same position -- Senator. It's not hard to believe that this would give Leia more insight into their mother, through the Force, than Luke. I don't know why people are so hesitant to believe that Leia has more natural affinity for something than Luke does. They're different people with different strengths and weaknesses.

Again, though, we have instances where Anakin can sense non-Force users. For example, on Tatooine, when he gets to the Tusken camp, he is immediately able to pinpoint the tent his mother is being held in. Or on Coruscant, he can sense Padmé's presence in the apartment (and she him) as they stare across at each other. He also must have been able to sense Admiral Ozzel, for instance, to be able to pinpoint him and strangle him on the ship before promoting Piett.

And, again, I'd like to point out that even if Anakin believed his child to be a son, you don't think it would be suspicious if he sensed Padmé on Alderaan with a child exactly the same age as his child was supposed to be? Then there's the fact that, if Anakin really was focused on Luke, it makes the decision to keep his name Skywalker more perplexing. Keeping the name works in the PT, as is, because everyone believes they are dead (Anakin believing he killed Padmé on the landing platform and her body still looking pregnant). But if Anakin truly is chasing after a son, how can one justify hiding him with Larses on Tatooine with his father's name?

Again, though, that doesn't make sense to me. Padmé is going to be a nanny for her daughter (who is a princess) while her husband is looking for his son and that very same son is on Tatooine with the name Skywalker and with moisture farmers?

But, again, you're presuming that Vader wouldn't get at all suspicious of Padmé walking around with a child that looks strikingly like her and is at just the right age to be Anakin's child. I think that is utterly illogical and an enormous risk to be taking in regards to Leia's safety.

 

I cannot see Padme "serving" as a servant in Bail's household. A fellow colleague? I could see her pretending to be a distant relation of his or Queen Breha's. And again . . . it does not make sense to me that Padme would stay close to one twin and give up the other to in-laws she only met for one day. Why do people assume she would do something like that? I can see Padme either giving up both twins, keeping both twins and living in a remote corner of the galaxy . . . or as was depicted in ROTS, dying after giving birth.

 

Not an iota contradicts. That is, if you have the imagination to fill in the blanks of the quick editing at ROTS's end.

I recall Senator Organa also had a beautiful wife.

But alas, many fans prefer a Peter Jackson 4 hour exercise in pedantry, without that old fashioned courtesy of an intermission.

 

Samuel Vimes
Wow, you really want to get into this. Alright then...

Exactly. She is Force sensitive, which makes it the simplest possible explanation. Occam's razor.

No. The scene makes a point of her actually remembering their mother. To assume that she's talking about Breha Organa or holo-photos and stories from Bail undermines that. Time manipulation is not an established concept in Star Wars, whereas the Force is.
HOWEVER, if you want to believe in one of those ideas, then go right ahead. I won't try to talk you out of it.

As long as it can be reasonably assumed that the Force is involved, there is no inconsistency. You seem strangely reluctant to accept magic explanations in this magical story.

Yes, he changed it. The lines still make sense.

And you call MY conclusions conjecture? Why would she not project love towards her newborn children in the midst of her pain and grief? If there is one thing that a vast majority of all mothers have in common, it's their undying love for their children. That love is usually very strong when the babies are newborn.
This is clearly true for Padmé too, since Leia remembers her as kind.

All Force sensitives aren't the offspring of the Chosen One.

You forget that they're not the same person. People experience things differently because they ARE different.

He does feel the good inside him: "I feel the good in you, the conflict". Padmé's words may be reinforcing his belief, though, reassuring him that he is right. Sometimes, we all need a little reassurance.
If that weakens Luke's character for you, though, I guess you could just forget about that idea.

I take it more as "Was she right? Will he succeed?" Lucas HAS mentioned that their struggle to win Anakin back becomes more apparent thanks to ROTS, so that seems to have been his intention.

 

This. This right here. This is why it makes NO SENSE for Padme to "lose the will to live" and die right then as she did. Her children. Thank you for making my argument for me. Now I will go take the free time I would've used writing a rebuttal and go clean my gutters or something.

 

I agree, particularly when the same all powerful force is now being portrayed as being so very choosey elsewhere.

 

Why do people have these stupid, rigid ideas when it comes to fictional mothers? Why do they always expect or demand that parents - especially mothers - behave in an ideal manner? Is this some sexist notion that when women are supposed to be especially ideal because they are mothers?

Padme was supposed to fight her despair because she had just gave birth? That's it? Talk about black-and-white morality. Why do people think that human nature can be so rigidly and simply dealt with? Why do we keep harboring these illusions of ourselves? Are humans so illusional that they cannot consider the idea that an individual's emotional state will affect that person's physical state?

This sounds absolutist to me.

 

What's so "ideal" about expecting a mother not to "lose the will to live" for her children? Staying alive and not leaving your newborns as orphans would seem like the bare minimum a parent could do for their kids. Ha ha…."ideal". That's funny. Yeah, how unreasonable of me.

And since Vader slaughtered the last kids he came in contact with, yeah, I wasn't gonna ask him to take over custody. That's not a sexist thing, that's a "let's not leave the kids with the raving psychopath" thing.

 

It has to do with countering the specific argument of "she had nothing left to live for after Anakin's betrayal." Yes - she did. Her children. It has nothing to do with the idea of her being an ideal mother.

Her physically dying due to the severity of her emotional state is another argument.

Also - if there is a sexist argument to be made over Padme's death - it is that a woman is depicted as being so fragile and emotionally dependent that she literally falls over and dies without her man by her side. Meanwhile, the man in the relationship loses his loved one and manages to carry on.

 

Well this has escalated quickly - and there's a 25 page thread in PT addressing the controversial topic of Padme losing her will to live right here:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...e-a-character-die-of-a-broken-heart.50013411/

This thread is about Leia's memories, let's get this back on topic - but given how little was ever mentioned or even developed regarding 'Mother Skywalker' in the OT (and how much was in the PT), I'll move it over to Saga.

 

To stay on topic, I'll leave the comments on Padmé dying til another time.

anakinfansince1983 and MOC Yak Face
It's not like the Force chooses to give Leia memories and refuses Luke the same. I just take it as Leia having a better memory. She IS a woman, after all

As for Luke inheriting some of Padmé's personality, I agree. The idea that her words echo somewhere deep within his subconscious is just an idea that I find neat.

 

No this is circular logic and assuming your conclusions. Also this isn't the simplest explanation because Luke doesn't remember which he would have according to this.
The simplest explanation is Lucas changed his mind and now these lines no longer fit.
Requires zero invented powers and zero invented rules about said powers.
A minor inconsistency, nothing more or less.

The Green lightsaber in the 2004 DVD version, you can try to make up all sorts of wonky theories about why this is. Or you can accept it as an effects screw up.

The scene is already undermined because neither Luke nor Leia spent any time with their mother but Leia has either fooled herself into thinking that she had. Or the Force has fooled her by implanting memories in her.
You said that the Force is the only explanation, it isn't. Also Force memories is also an invented power.

But it can't be reasonably assumed because the power you talk about is not established nor is it consistent. Also, just because you have magic in your story, doesn't mean that you can just make up whatever power you want willy nilly. Or rather you CAN, but if you invent new powers everytime you have to get out of plot holes, the writing will suffer.

Even in magic stories there should be some logic to the magic.

I didn't say that she didn't project love, she would have done so. But her love wouldn't be directed anymore towards Leia than towards Luke. Also if Leia picked up her love, why would she just say that she was kind? Wouldn't she say that her mother loved her very much? You can be kind to someone without loving them. If you know that someone loves you, wouldn't it be odd just to describe them as "kind"?

Also, as others have said, if she did love her children that much, why give up? Esp since she also thought that Anakin could be redeemed.

So, it doesn't apply to Luke, despite him also being a child of Padme and the offspring of the chosen one. It doesn't apply to any other Force user because they aren't the offspring of the chosen one.
Don't you see how this makes your invented power even more narrow so that it ONLY aplies to Leia.
This doesn't work at all for me. If you make something up then apply it consistently.
Otherwise you are just making up random powers whenever you want to.

[/QUOTE]

And to me, telegraphing the end halfway through the story might not be that good. Because the tension is often reduced and it becomes more like waiting for the inevitable to happen.
And if Luke is the only one who sees the good in Vader and has a unique insight into Vader, that I think is better than him just getting handed something. It doesn't make the story better and it doesn't make his character better. If he can overcome the bias of Obi-Wan, the certainty of Palpatine and see beyond Vader's evil actions and into the heart of who he really is underneath all that hate and anger. That to me is more interesting than just "remembering" something.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

No, it's a straightforward conclusion based on the established Star Wars universe.

That's an out-of-universe explanation and avoiding the subject.
Again, I'm not inventing anything. I hear Leia talk of a memory that she shouldn't have. Unless... Could it be that she remembers with help from the Force? She is the Chosen One's daughter, after all. Yes, that must be it!
Easy as that.
Luke doesn't remember because his memory isn't as good as Leia's.

Completely unrelated. That's not part of the story. It IS an effects screw up.

If that's what you want to believe.

It's the easiest and therefore most reasonable in-universe explanation.

The power I talk about is established when Leia says that she remembers Padmé.

No objections there.

Nitpicking. Leia chose to call her kind. Big deal. That her mother loved her would go without saying.

I do have a reply for that, but I don't want to steer us off topic.

No, I don't see that. Is it so hard to imagine that Leia has better memory than Luke?

 

...or that they simply focus on different things? Maybe Luke COULD remember if he really put his mind to it. It may not have occurred to him that the Force could help him remember, whereas Leia's mind has just naturally gone to that place without her realizing what she's doing.

 

No it is based on circular logic and you assuming your conclusions. We know that the Force allows you to see things, different places, the past, the future etc. It is quite different to assume that this ability can give you old memories of things you never did or people you don't really know.
A TV allows us to see different places, the past etc. A TV doesn't give you old memories.

Not really since these are movies and out-of-universe explanations are possible.

No you are again assuming your conclusions, you assume that the Force can give you memories and the proof is that Leia has memories she shouldn't have because the Force gave it to her.
This is circular logic and a logical fallacy.

I can do the same thing, I can say, all females in the SW-galaxy get memories of their mother and the proof is that Leia has memories of her mother. QED. This also has the advantage that I don't have to invent excuses for Luke since he isn't female.

Good memory isn't the issue, we are talking about a Force power that can give you memories you should not have.

So you agree that out of universe explanations are allowed?
In this instance, the story was changed and now we are left with an inconcistency.

No holo-photos and Bail telling Leia about Padme is the simplest because that requires no extra powers and no inventing reasons why Luke doesn't remember. In-universe that is, the simplest overall is backstory changed.

And you are again assuming your conclusions.

That a mother is kind to her daughter also kind of goes without saying and yet Leia brought it up.

[/QUOTE]

But again this isn't about better memory. It is about either the Force giving Leia these memories, which others have suggested in the past. Or Leia seeing her own birth in a Force vision and somehow fooling herself into thinking that she spent time with her mother. Or Leia saw various instances in Padme's life and somehow fooled herself into thinking that she spent time with her. Or Leia somehow sensed her mothers love as a new born infant and fooled herself into thinking that she spent time with her mother. Basically it alls boils down to Leia thinking something happened when it really didn't. Neither Luke nor Leia really met or knew their mother because she died moments after they were born.

Better memory doesn't enter into it. Can the Force do this? The ability isn't established anywhere and Luke is not able to remember anything about her mother. And he is strong in the Force and has much more training in Force use etc.

The biggest difference between Luke and Leia, growing up, is that Leia had people around her that knew her mother and could have told her about Padme. And she could also have seen photos of her.
They were born at the same time, by the same woman, they are both strong in the Force, so the one thing that separates them is where they grew up and who they had around them.
So if you absolutely have to have an in-universe explanation, then photos and Bail telling her is the simplest.

In closing, about focus and all that. Leia grew up calling Bail father and presumably his wife, mother. So she had parents, adoptive at least. Luke meanwhile didn't. Owen and Beru were uncle and aunt and he was curious about his father and his mother as well. So given this, wouldn't Luke be more focused about his parents? And in turn, if the Force can do this, knew more about them than Leia did?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

She "remembered" Padmé? Oh lol I didn't see or hear about this.

 

Samuel Vimes
Are you sure you've grasped the concept "circular logic"? I see something happen in the movie and then, I come to a conclusion based on nothing more than what's in the movies. That's LINEAR logic.
So what if I'm assuming something? It's a perfectly reasonable assumption, all things considered. And since Leia's memory isn't thoroughly explained, we HAVE to make an assumption if we want an explanation. That's not a big deal, since Leia's memory isn't a big deal in the story.

You also seem to have no idea what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the Force is giving Leia a memory or that she's having visions of the past. I'm saying that she, with help from the Force, actually REMEMBERS Padmé from when she was born.
If Luke hasn't yet found out that he can remember too, then that's not odd at all. As far as we know, he's been obsessing over his father, not his mother. Even if he had been obsessing over her, though, that doesn't guarantee that he'd remember her. Leia might just be more naturally inclined towards remembering things that way.

Finally, out of universe explanations are fine as far as obviously flawed effects go, but right now, we're discussing the in-universe merits of a story detail.

 

I think it's beautiful and mysterious that she remembers, if in a really vague way. I also think it's beautiful and mysterious that Luke has zero memory.

Logic doesn't enter into it.

 

I find the whole idea of Leia spending time with Padme rather stupid. Why? Because no mother who found herself in a situation similar to Padme's, would give up one child to in-laws she barely knows and keep the other child. That's like choosing one child over the other for no apparent reason.

Why is it that no one can see this?

Because human nature is not that damn simple . . . even if you want it to be. That's why.


And the idea that Padme is supposed to overcome her despair for the sake of her children strikes me as sexist one, due to society's ridiculous demands that mothers behave in ideal manner for the sake of their children . . . as if it's possible on a 24/7 basis. Which it is not.

 

Of course not. I'm not saying that my assumptions are the most reasonable for everyone, just that they are from my point of view.
I thought that went without saying, but maybe I was wrong. I guess that's why we all keep going in circles here.

Samuel Vimes
I may have misinterpreted you, but I'm more than willing to just let this discussion rest, since we can't seem to find common ground.

I love you all!