Amph Gaming Diagon Alley: The Official Harry Potter Thread/Hogwarts Legacy

Or he may have stolen it when he was young, but as with Voldemort's Horcruxes, he may have stashed it away somewhere very, very safe so as not to draw attention to himself.

 

It's an interesting possibility. Even if he wasn't certain before Goblet of Fire, growing suspicion from fairly early on, may apply.

 

Probably from the end of TPS. He probably wants to know why Quirrel couldn't bear having Harry touch him and starts putting things together from there. By the end of GOF, he knows enough to at least make a well educated guess which is why he just about bent over backwards trying to avoid contact with Harry from that point on.

 

He gives Harry a reason: "Your mother died to save you - giving you a form of magical protection which lingers".

Clues about a special connection between the two - the way Harry's scar burns when Voldemort is near. Presumably Firenze witnessed Harry's reaction to a nearby Quirrelmort, reported it to Dumbledore - and the first suspicions began to stir.

Once Dumbledore had the diary - he deduced from Voldemort's cavalier treatment of it (having given it to Lucius to use as a weapon) - that there might be more than one Horcrux (probably thinking back to Voldemort's changing appearance over the years) - and then the possibility that Harry might be one, probably came up.

In Goblet of Fire, we get Harry's scar burning again at the start of the book, and his dream where he sees Voldemort in the old Riddle House. If Harry's conversation with Sirius had included the content of that dream (we know that when Harry wrote to Sirius mentioning scar burning, Sirius had reported that to Dumbledore at least) - then that might have been the final factor convincing Dumbledore of Harrycrux.

 

I doubt that Voldemort would have given it to Lucius for anything other that safe keep given how hard he made it to find the other ones. Also, given how paranoid he was, I doubt that he would have told Lucius exactly what it was. Letting the diary fall into Ginny's hands was probably Lucius' harebrained idea.

 

Dumbledore's theory was that Voldemort had only told Lucius "This opens the Chamber of Secrets" at some point prior to his confrontation with the Potter family.


"Four years ago, I received what I considered certain proof that Voldemort had split his soul."
"Where?" asked Harry. "How?"
"You handed it to me, Harry," said Dumbledore. "The diary, Riddle's diary, the one giving instructions on how to reopen the Chamber of Secrets."
"I don't understand, sir," said Harry.
"Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the diary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book. ... a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it. The diary had been a Horcrux. But this raised as many questions as it answered. What intrigued and alarmed me most was that that diary had been intended as a weapon as much as a safeguard."
"I still don't understand," said Harry.
"Well, it worked as a Horcrux is supposed to work — in other words, the fragment of soul concealed inside it was kept safe and had undoubtedly played its part in preventing the death of its owner. But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again."
"Well, he didn't want his hard work to be wasted," said Harry. "He wanted people to know he was Slytherin's heir, because he couldn't take credit at the time."
"Quite correct," said Dumbledore, nodding. "But don't you see, Harry, that if he intended the diary to be passed to, or planted on, some future Hogwarts student, he was being remarkably blase about that precious fragment of his soul concealed within it. The point of a Horcrux is, as Professor Slughorn explained, to keep part of the self hidden and safe, not to fling it into somebody else's path and run the risk that they might destroy it — as indeed happened: That particular fragment of soul is no more; you saw to that.
The careless way in which Voldemort regarded this Horcrux seemed most ominous to me. It suggested that he must have made — or had been planning to make — more Horcruxes, so that the loss of his first would not be so detrimental. I did not wish to believe it, but nothing else seemed to make sense. Then you told me, two years later, that on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eaters. ‘I who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality.’ That was what you told me he said. 'Further than anybody!' And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes, Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I don’t believe any other wizard has ever had. Yet it fitted: Lord Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years, and the transformation he had undergone seemed to me to be only explainable if his soul was mutilated beyond the realms of what we might call 'usual evil' . . ."

...

"Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?" Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
"A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss . . . but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."
"But I thought he meant Lucius Malfoy to smuggle it into Hogwarts?"
"Yes, he did, years ago, when he was sure he would be able to create more Horcruxes, but still Lucius was supposed to wait for Voldemort's say-so, and he never received it, for Voldemort vanished shortly after giving him the diary. No doubt he thought that Lucius would not dare do anything with the Horcrux other than guard it carefully, but he was counting too much upon Lucius’s fear of a master who had been gone for years and whom Lucius believed dead. Of course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was. I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted. Had Lucius known he held a portion of his master's soul in his hands, he would undoubtedly have treated it with more reverence — but instead he went ahead and carried out the old plan for his own ends. By planting the diary upon Arthur Weasley's daughter, he hoped to discredit Arthur, have me thrown out of Hogwarts and get rid of a highly incriminating magical object in one stroke. Ah, poor Lucius . . . what with Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for his own gain, and the fiasco at the Ministry last year, I would not be surprised if he is not secretly glad to be safe in Azkaban at the moment."

 

Does it count if

Spoiler

Newt's magical creature disarmed Grindelwald? Technically wand lore seems only dictated by human interference. If a magical creature disarmed a wielder of the Elder Wand then the wand should still be serving it's disarmed wielder.

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That's a good point.

 

Saw the film yesterday. Pretty fantastic film. Even after 8 Potter films, this felt all totally new, with the 1920s nyc setting and MACUSA and all the new critters and creatures. Nice to see new places in the magical world.

Newt was brilliant, Tina and Queenie were really good, and the muggle was a fun addition to the group.

Overall a really enjoyable movie, definitely ready for a few more of these. Very curious to see where they go from here.

Hope we get to see this new world school, what's it called Ilvenmorny?

 

I do too, but I doubt we will in the next one at least - it's being filmed in France.

 

I see, well I suppose France has some fantastic beasts as well, eh.

 

That's a very good point.

Spoiler

The disarming happened so fast, I forgot it was a creature that Newt used. If it does count, the solution is sadly obvious. The creature must die before his duel with Dumbledore. UNLESS, the whole reason the wand failed against Dumbledore was he had been disarmed. Then, let's just assume the creature died at some point allowing Dumbledore to be the wand's master. Or perhaps it is even more simple. After his defeat in Fantastic Beasts, the wand never truly belongs to Grindlewald but neither can it belong to Newt's creature. So as Olivander says repeatedly: The wand chooses the wizard. Perhaps the Elder Wand chose Dumbledore during the duel....

 

The whole elder wand master thing as explained in DH didn't really make sense to me. Dumbledore was setting Harry up to die I assume because he knew with Harry having all three DH that he wouldn't really die. So Harry happening to get kidnapped and wrestling with Draco from his wand and that is how he becomes master of the elder wand makes no sense to me. That couldn't have been Dumbledore's plan. Dumbledore is very thoughtful and doesn't leave anything to chance.

I also like the idea that in order to become the true master of the wand that you have to murder the previous owner. So it would make more sense to me if Grindelwald wasn't really the true master since he didn't kill the previous owner and that is why he lost to Dumbledore (you suppose to be unbeatable if you have that wand unless he just surrendered). Dumbledore was never it's true master either and he knew that. Once Voldemort killed gregorovitch, he became the true master of the wand. Since Voldemort wasn't whole being with his horcruxes destroyed plus Harry having the other two DH, the wand switch it's allegiance to Harry. The wand chose Harry at that time (Harry is the chosen one after all ). I can see Dumbledore foreseeing this plan then leaving it to chance.

That is kind of my headcanon.

 

Dumbledore thought he was the last owner of the wand. He was buried with it. He didn't anticipate Voldemort needing it nor cracking his tomb open to get it. Otherwise, he'd have instructed Aberforth, McGonagall or someone in the Order to snap it in half before burying him.

 

So Harry was never suppose to have all 3 hallows and become master of death and Dumbledore truly expected Harry to die? That would be very cold of Dumbledore.

How the whole wand thing was handled in DH was a mess.

Dumbledore knew from book 1 that Harry and Voldemort's wands are brothers so the whole prior incantatem thing probably wasn't a surprise but expected. It should have been easy jump to think that Voldemort would seek a new wand and very predictably go for the most powerful wand known. Voldemort clearly knew about the DH and tracked down the wand easily. Dumbledore also couldn't be dump enough to think that Voldemort wouldn't violate his grave or think of the possibility that Voldemort might seek the elder wand. I refuse to think he would be planning setting up Harry's death unless he had an out for him.

 

Dumbledore didn't have everything planned out because it would be past impossible to control all those different elements. He relied a lot on the ingenuity Harry and Co. They helped work a plan out for themselves that Dumbledore could never have any influence over.

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My guess is that the "out" was Voldemort's use of Harry in the Bone Flesh Blood restoration spell - once that happened, Dumbledore thought Harry had a chance of survival - if he willingly "sacrificed himself" by bringing himself before Voldemort and not defending himself.

I'd also suggest that it wasn't all 3 - Dumbledore expected Harry to, once he knew what was necessary, voice "I am about to die", open the Snitch, and go to his fate with his dead family at his side - but I don't think he was expecting Harry to have mastered the Elder Wand at the time.

 

I wish that Cursed Child would have delved more into the master of death thing.

 

Dumbledore planned on snape becoming the owner of the elder wand. but before that malfoy disarmed him and won the wands allegiance the plot hole is when harry took draco's wand at malfoy manner that the elder wand knew and became harry's from the other side of the country.

fantastic beasts spoiler

Spoiler

so now depending on how it was viewed it could be argued that newt should have the allegiance of the elder wand since he disarmed grindelwald

 

No, Dumbledore planned that the special power of the Elder Wand would have died with him. Because Dumbledore planned his death with Snape, Dumbledore would have died undefeated, as the wands last master. Snape wouldn't have become the master of the Elder Wand in this scenario.
However, you are right that Dumbledore's plan failed because Malfoy disarmed him on the Astronomy tower.

 

remember in the deathly hallows book when harry watches snapes memory that Dumbledore makes snape promise to kill him when the time comes. he was dying from the curse of the horcrux after putting on the ring. so the wand would of passed too voldemort. he wanted it to go to snape

 

Dumbledore would be like K from Men in Black and say, "I like to keep my enemies confused."
Snape and Harry would say, "We're all confused."

 

Voldemort's theory. Harry's was that Dumbledore intended to "die undefeated".


"Dumbledore was trying to keep the Elder Wand from me! He intended that Snape should be the true master of the wand! But I got there ahead of you, little boy - I reached the wand before you could get your hands on it, I understood the truth before you caught up. I killed Severus Snape three hours ago, and the Elder Wand, the Deathstick, the Wand of Destiny is truly mine! Dumbledore's last plan went wrong, Harry Potter!"
"Yeah, it did." said Harry. "You're right. But before you try to kill me, I'd advise you think what you've done.... Think, and try for some remorse, Riddle...."
"What is this?"
Of all the things that Harry had said to him, beyond any revelation or taunt, nothing had socked Voldemort like this. Harry saw his pupils contract to thin slits, saw the skin around his eyes whiten.
"It's your one last chance," said Harry, "it's all you've got left.... I've seen what you'll be otherwise.... Be a man... try...
Try for some remorse...."
"You dare -?" said Voldemort again.
"Yes, I dare," said Harry, "because Dumbledore's last plan hasn't backfired on me at all. It's backfired on you, Riddle."
Voldemort's hand was trembling on the Elder Wand, and Harry gripped Draco's very tightly. The moment, he knew, was seconds away.
"That wand still isn't working properly for you because you murdered the wrong person. Severus Snape was never the true master of the Elder Wand. He never defeated Dumbledore."
"He killed - "
"Aren't you listening? Snape never beat Dumbledore! Dumbledore's death was planned between them! Dumbledore intended to die, undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him!"
"But then, Potter, Dumbledore as good as gave me the wand!" Voldemort's voice shook with malicious pleasure. "I stole the wand from its last master's tomb! I removed it against the last master's wishes! Its power is mine!"
"You still don't get it, Riddle, do you? Possessing the wand isn't enough! Holding it, using it, doesn't make it really yours. Didn't you listen to Ollivander? The wand chooses the wizard... The Elder Wand recognized a new master before Dumbledore died, someone who never even laid a hand on it. The new master removed the wand from Dumbledore against his will, never realizing exactly what he had done, or that the world's most dangerous wand had given him its allegiance..."
Voldemort's chest rose and fell rapidly, and Harry could feel the curse coming, feel it building inside the wand pointed at his face.
"The true master of the Elder Wand was Draco Malfoy."
Blank shock showed in Voldemort's face for a moment, but then it was gone.
"But what does it matter?" he said softly. "Even if you are right, Potter, it makes no difference to you and me. You no longer have the phoenix wand: We duel on skill alone... and after I have killed you, I can attend to Draco Malfoy..."
"But you're too late," said Harry. "You've missed your chance. I got there first. I overpowered Draco weeks ago. I took his wand from him."
Harry twitched the hawthorn wand, and he felt the eyes of everyone in the Hall upon it.
"So it all comes down to this, doesn't it?" whispered Harry. "Does the wand in your hand know its last master was Disarmed? Because if it does... I am the true master of the Elder Wand."

 

True, and I think Harry is right here and Voldemort wrong.

 

Lucius giving Ginny the diary was more about discrediting the Weasley family than it was about advancing Voldemort's agenda or muggle-blood genocide? Interesting...