main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

BTS Did Alec Guinness know about Luke being Vader's offspring in 1976?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Giando74, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Is that the same draft where Vader tells Luke on Cloud City that Obi-Wan killed his father? I believe that was the dialog actually spoken by Prowse during filming. So we know there was deliberate intent to deceive on the part of the producer.

    I'll agree with those who say that Lucas did not have Luke and Leia as sibling when he made E4, but I think too much fits too perfectly for the Vader/Luke relationship not to have been the plan all along.
     
  2. Drewdude91

    Drewdude91 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 21, 2011
    No. Alec had this glint in his eyes when he said "and he was a good friend". If Anakin was indeed supposed to be Vader in ANH, it would have seemed more regretful.
     
    GregMcP and SateleNovelist11 like this.
  3. Drewdude91

    Drewdude91 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 21, 2011
    [/quote]Is that the same draft where Vader tells Luke on Cloud City that Obi-Wan killed his father? [/quote]

    I thought they filmed that in order to keep the real plot twist secret.
     
  4. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Yes. That's kinda the point I am making.
     
  5. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Totally different draft. In the duel, Vader has a couple of taunting lines about how Luke has no more chance against him than his father did. There's no revelation or twist.

    The Brackett draft wasn't a shooting script, it was Leigh Brackett's first draft adaptation of GL's own outline, and wasn't intended for public consumption. Luke's father appears as a ghost, Vader muses to himself about how similar Luke is to his father, and Vader taunts Luke about having killed his father because in that draft, they were separate characters. It wasn't written to deceive anyone.

    What is possible, however, is that GL may have been toying with the idea of merging the two characters for some time (my theory is he came up with it in late 1977, prior to the Brackett draft), but continued with the 'orthodox' storyline for this draft at least, and when he wasn't happy with it, that decided it for him. In the second draft of ESB (written by GL), Vader tells Luke that he is his father.

    Interestingly enough, in the fifth draft/shooting script I have a scan of, the revelation isn't actually there in any form, although Vader does make mention of the Force running strongly in the Skywalker line, plus there's the later line from Luke to himself "Ben, why didn't you tell me?". It's as if the dialogue was written into the final draft, then deleted from the actual shooting scripts.

    As for the 'alternate' dialogue that Prowse spoke on set - I don't know if there are any copies in existence - in fact, I've heard different versions of it over the years, some accounts say that it was "Obi-Wan killed your father", others say it was "Obi-Wan is your father". Prowse himself said it was something almost unrelated, IIRC.
    (Given that the dialogue was fake, exactly what the lines were doesn't really matter, I suppose, except as trivia)
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Here's how that point goes according to the Brackett draft.

    242 LUKE AND VADER
    They are in a large space in the lower pendulum of the city, where the great roaring ventilator shaft runs down to the reactor. Vader now pours on the coal, and it is obvious that Luke is tired and losing, no matter how he uses the dark Force. Suddenly the scene changes as it did before in the clearing by Minch’s house; we see the blackness of space roiled and dusted with stars burning with stars and we see the large black shadow of Darth Vader towering against the starfields. The smaller form of Luke is there as well, but and this time the shadow it casts is almost as dark a (sic) Vader’s.
    VADER
    You see, my little Jedi, you’re beaten. You have used the dark side of the Force against me, as I knew you would…and powerfully. Very powerfully, Luke. With training, you could be as strong as I.
    He reaches out for a handful stars (sic) and plays with them idly.
    VADER
    But you’ve had no training in the dark side, Luke. You simply felt more power in it, and you used it for revenge, for hate, for the sake of being able to say that you, Luke Skywalker, had destroyed the great Darth Vader.
    LUKE
    (looking down at himself)
    But I didn’t realize…
    VADER
    Of course you didn’t. I simply led you along so that at each point you had a choice to make, and you always made the right one…or the wrong one.
    He tosses a handful of stars over Luke’s shadowy form, where they run over him like sparks.
    VADER
    So, once more, little Jedi. Or Will you join with me, and let me teach you the uses of the dark side of the force…or will you at the last minute remember your oath and die?
    Luke stands silent, watching the stars trickle away and vanish. His shadowy form is growing intangibly lighter.
    LUKE
    I’ve wasted and thrown away all the careful teaching I was given. I betrayed my trust, I broke my oath. I would prefer to die.
    VADER
    You’re a fool, Luke. Nevertheless, it can be arranged.
    The illusion dissolves back in to the maintenance area around themaround the shaft. Luke, himself again, stands facing Vader with his light saber. Vader, some distance away, laughs softly.
    VADER
    You’re weak, little Jedi, without the dark side. But I warn you that if you use it once more, you are lost…forfeit in this world and the next.
    He lunges forward and the battle is on again.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  7. Darth Lurker

    Darth Lurker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 24, 2014
    Here is a quote from a 1977 George Lucas interview from Rolling Stone,
    "What's the story?
    It's about Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are young Jedi knights. But Vader kills Luke's father, then Ben and Vader have a confrontation, just like they have in Star Wars, and Ben almost kills Vader. As a matter of fact, he falls into a volcanic pit and gets fried and is one destroyed being. That's why he has to wear the suit with a mask, because it's a breathing mask. It's like a walking iron lung. His face is all horrible inside. I was going to shoot a close-up of Vader where you could see the inside of his face, but then we said, no, no, it would destroy the mystique of the whole thing."
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  8. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    (Bold mine)
    This is a perfect reflection of GL's original view of the backstory, both public and private, and there's no subterfuge, no 'certain point of view' nonsense - if there was, he would have phrased such comments differently, rather than in such unambiguous terms. Even if anyone really wants to labour the point so that "Vader kills Luke's father" can be taken as a metaphor, referring to "Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are young Jedi knights" - three people - really can't be taken as anything other than its literal meaning.
    Luke's father and Darth Vader were separate characters up until late 1977 at the very earliest. As I pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, the merge of the two was something that, despite having its roots in earlier ideas, came about from having to move the story forward.
     
    ATMachine and Samuel Vimes like this.
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Exactly and for those that argue that Lucas had Vader as Luke's father back then and use Obi-Wans pause or Owen's words. That means he must have told Alec about it and the actor who play Owen as well. Add to that, Beru's smile when she talks about Luke's father isn't consistent with that.
    And if he told those two then why didn't he tell Leigh Brackett when she was writing the next script?

    Stories grow, evolve and change over time, so it is no slight to Lucas that he came up with this after ANH was made. It is a good twist and works well.

    Bye for now.
    Mr "Insert-Name-Here."
     
  10. SegNerd

    SegNerd Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Not only did Alec Guinness not know during the filming of ANH, he didn't know during the filming of TESB.

    What I heard is that only six people knew prior to watching the finished version of TESB: George Lucas, Irvin Kershner, Leigh Brackett, Lawrence Kasdan, Mark Hamill, and James Earl Jones.
     
  11. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Well, Leigh Brackett couldn't have known, since she died before that was written!
    And Gary Kurtz knew as well, of course.
    And anyway, that's obviously an exaggeration. There would be all the sound people involved in the dubbing and mixing process to begin with, and many other people involved in the post-production process. The secrecy was more urgent during the shooting, and even then someone had written up the real dialogue...

    It's not as easy to keep a secret when there are over a hundred people involved in the process of making a film.
     
  12. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    I believe they just made up the "I am your father" thing on the spot during filming of TESB so I don't think Alec Guinness would know about this.
     
  13. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2012
    There's always been contradictory stories about this. My take on it is Lucas wasn't really one to stick to the "plan". He left things purposely ambiguous most of the time so he could still jangle things around to his satisfaction later in the game.

    I get the feeling at the time of the filming of ANH he had intended to make Vader Luke's father, but didn't really commit to it openly in case he later decided to go another way.

    Alec gives just a masterful performance in that scene. I always figured Alec didn't know (about Vader being Luke's father) at that point, but that Lucas may have said to him something as vague as "Act as if Ben is hesitant to tell the whole truth". Which would probably prompt Alec to deliver the scene as he did.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Nah, it was much further back. Evidence shows that it wasn't in the Brackett draft, as I posted the transcript of the scene where it would come out. And Lucas by his own admission indicated that his thoughts were focused yet.

    “Writing has never been something I have enjoyed, and so, ultimately, on the second film I hired Leigh Brackett. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out; she turned in the first draft, and then she passed away. I didn’t like the first script, but I gave Leigh credit because I liked her a lot. She was sick at the time she wrote the script, and she really tried her best. During the story conferences I had with Leigh, my thoughts weren’t fully formed and I felt that her script went in a completely different direction.”

    --George Lucas, "Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays", page 142.

    She would have had to have known it, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to not include it in that draft. So odds are she didn't know and thus Lucas didn't decide until 1978.
     
    Hogarth Wrightson likes this.
  15. Straudenbecker

    Straudenbecker Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2015
    It was great acting from Alec Guinness, Alec stated that Old Ben felt responsible for Anakin's death by the hand of his pupil Vader. On Phil Brown, I talked to someone who had talked to him at a charity fundraiser, and asked about his role in the film. All Mr. Brown said was that GL told him that his character is dead set against Luke following in his father's footsteps.
     
  16. MeganPhntmGrl

    MeganPhntmGrl Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2005
    I
    I've often wondered if that reaction was the actual reason for the retcon. It just works so perfectly.
     
  17. SeventySeven

    SeventySeven Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2002
    One thing's for sure, he would have had to check back to make sure that this would work and not contradict to much in ANH.

    Obviously it does, but he was lucky with some things. There are a lot of small things, some pointed out here that still do, for the big things he knew that after ESB if Luke was to be still communing with Obi-Wan there would be some explaining to be done - though luckily he had Guinness again to help any awkwardness.
     
  18. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009

    Well, that's always been a bit of a theory - that GL was keeping it all a secret, and manipulated the actors in such a way that it would work later - but it doesn't hold up against anything else, i.e. script drafts and private interviews.

    To be perfectly honest, GL had enough trouble on SW/ANH directing the actors when it came to straightforward scenes - the Big Three and others have made many a (fond) comment about his lack of ability when dealing with actors - I can't see such a man battling an ulcer and potential heart attack having the skill or willpower to possibly even consider such subterfuge, let alone make it work.

    Obi-Wan and Owen's scenes work beautifully in retrospect, but it was just luck, along with a couple of decent actors adding a bit of depth to a couple of straightforward scenes - simply because they were professionals. Despite the fuss so many make about Obi-Wan's 'tell' as he supposedly lies to Luke, all Alec Guinness really does is pause, keep his eyes fixed on Luke, take a breath, then tell the original story.

    If SW followed a different path, with no Father Vader, if what he said to Luke in the hut was true, the performance would still fit perfectly. All he's saying is, "Your father, and my dear friend, was murdered by a man who is now the second most powerful man in the entire galaxy. This beast wiped out the Jedi Order and helped destroy the Republic. He was once a Jedi Knight, and I was the man who trained him as a Jedi."
    When SW/ANH was made, that was the story - and that's plenty for Obi-Wan to be looking uncomfortable about, hence Alec Guinness' performance, along with the bitterness and worry Phil Brown delivered as Uncle Owen when he tried to protect his nephew from running off on another "damned fool crusade" with the man who he regarded as getting his brother killed.
     
    oierem likes this.
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    In the 77 "Rolling Stone" interview, he really praised the actors and their ability to work with the material.
     
    SateleNovelist11 likes this.
  20. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    No. Even George Lucas didn’t know. Besides, it’s been pretty widely reported that, until the premiere, only five people knew- Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan, Hamill, and James Earl Jones.
     
  21. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Exactly. The rest was fortuitous acting from Guinness. He probably was as surprised as the rest of us when TESB rolled around.
     
  22. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2012
    In my experience there's no such thing as luck.;)

    But seriously, a lot of people seem to see it as either one extreme or the other. Either Lucas masterminded every last detail and sprung it on an unsuspecting public, or he made the whole thing by the seat of his pants, changing his mind almost daily as to the direction the Saga would take. I still maintain that most of the story as we know it was probably solidified by ANH's filming. But certain things were made flexible enough for Lucas to adapt them to the Saga's needs. (Yoda eventually replacing Ben as mentor, Leia taking the sister role,etc)
     
    Darth_Nub likes this.
  23. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Assuming that he even cared. I don’t think he regarded STAR WARS that highly, if his autobiography is any indication:

     
    SateleNovelist11 likes this.
  24. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2012
    I'm firmly convinced that the kid Sir Alec said that to grew up to become:
    [​IMG]

    "Little star shells of madness in his eyes..."
     
  25. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    I agree (on your overall point, not that most of the storyline was solidified by the time SW/ANH was filmed). There's a tendency to take everything at 100% face value, based on how the later films turned out and GL's own claims, or solely upon script drafts, interviews and comments which pointed towards a storyline rendered redundant by later developments.

    The "it was all planned from start" camp ignores the idea that GL could have simply been making it up as he went along and changed his mind. The other side often follows a far too logical line of reasoning, ignoring the very definite possibility that alternatives could have existed while official drafts were being submitted.
    None of this really happened. It's a fictional story. Just because the ghost of Luke's father appeared in the February 1978 Leigh Brackett draft of ESB doesn't mean GL couldn't have been toying with the idea of Father Vader some time before. No, we don't have any solid evidence to support such a notion, but there are some dubious accounts from late 1977/early 1978 that point towards it being the case - plus the final result.
    (Trying to piece together GL's 'original' vision of Eps VII-IX is even more confusing and contradictory)

    With GL not being entirely forthcoming with the actual details, all we can go off is what turns up from the time, and how credible such material can be considered. I think it's just a matter of being open-minded, rather than taking sides or working from some sort of agenda.
    I'm very much in the "Father Vader didn't exist until after SW/ANH was released and the next film was being planned" camp, but I'd be just as excited as anyone if something turned up from, say, 1975, that proved otherwise.
    From everything I've read, and as I've mentioned before, 'Father Vader' probably didn't enter GL's mind at the earliest until the audio post-production of SW/ANH in early 1977, when he first came up with the notion of the volcano duel - which was inspired by the mechanical breathing that Ben Burtt gave to Vader, from which GL devised the idea of Vader being a "walking iron lung".