Lit Did altering the future kill Jacen?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TheWiseJedi, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. TheWiseJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2012

    We dont know for certain what he did, except that he prevented a future where is daughter was next to the dark man on the thrown.His actions described as "Changeing the flow of the river" created a new scenario for the Galaxy. This led to the release of Abeloth.
    I believe that he would have lived if he did not play with the future. I think that his actions, though noble, lead to his death. Its hard to say for certain what the galaxy would be like if he had lived instead of died.

    Does anyone remember what the galaxy was going through during this time? Lets take the focus away from Jacen and discuss what events were playing out. From there we can determine if anything at all changed.

    How does one get to those possiblities? They must be presented to the person. trueThe future has not yet happened, but the possiblities are there. He had to see them, to see that the likely hood that path would happen was high, then acted on it.

    For Jacen this fact did not occur to him. he thought that by changeing the future he could then change the outcome of future events. but once that future is altered, another one would take its place. So it might be that he was simply vieweing it in the present and not in the far future.

    True, but prehaps by preventing one, Jacen believed he had saved his little girl from any possible bad outcomes.[/quote]
    Last edited by TheWiseJedi, Oct 16, 2012
  2. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Now I'll have to re-read LotF! Durn it! ;)
  3. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    Thewisejedi

    I understand your reasoning, but logicly he is taking a big risk for no discernable reward.

    yes at one point in time there was a triggering mechenisms that put this future in potentia on his plate, but there were to much unkowns for him to act on a a character.

    The reason backwards time travel is so used in fiction is because proficy or statistical estimation needs to take in a crazy abount of factors, and the further the distance from the "now" to the "prediction" the more various unforseable factors come into play. I mean you cant predict anyones future form when they are a toddler to adulthood, there are too many factor from economic stability, war, cultural ideals of race and genderolls that are always shifting, and the likelyhood or unlikelyhood of personal hardship or compleatly impersonal hardship.

    For all Jacen knows' her fall is a result of a terrorist action by a group that didnt exist yet, aganst targets Allana just happend to be walking by, in compleate happistance.
    Last edited by Likewater, Oct 16, 2012
  4. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2011
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    Yeah, because like I said Abeloth being released, Luke being exiled, all of that happened in-story, so it's not hating, because of Jacen's action. Doesn't matter if he planned it or not. If you do one thing and someone ends up getting shot because of what you did, you're indirectly responsible, just like Jacen is here.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Oct 16, 2012
  5. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    He failed to kill Thrackan Sal-Solo - according to a vision of Jacen's at the decision point Thrackan's survival would ruin the future (Betrayal, page 178). I'll post any more that I find.
    SiouxFan likes this.
  6. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Ah, the Peter Parker example. Peter doesn't stop a robbery, and the crook goes on to kill his Uncle; therefore it is Peter's fault. That's a pretty weak connection. Let's take this out further in an example I've used before: Jacen got captured by Vergere on that ill-fated mission to Myrkr, a mission that was planned by Anakin. During his capture, Jacen learned a new view of the Force. This new view encouraged him to seek out other views of the Force, while on this journey of self-inspection, he learns about Allana turning to the Sith. Therefore, Anakin is responsible, indirectly. Is this not the end conclusion of what you are saying?
    By failing to kill Sal-Solo, part of his vision DID come true; Corellia DID seceed and start a war before Jacen left for Lorrd. If this vision came true, could not Jacen conclude that his other, earlier, vision might come true?
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  7. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Once he realised exactly who was with the Dark Man, yes!

    What is becoming very clear is that Jacen's fall was well and truly orchestrated by Lumiya from the outset (who is, BTW, a complete and utter liar - well, no real surprises there)!
  8. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    No its not. Peter was indirectly responsible for his uncles death, as he had a chance to stop that villain earlier but he didn't.

    Yeah that's correct. Indirectly Anakin is partially responsible, just like Leia and Han are indirectly responsible for causing Jacen to be born, just like Jacen's indirectly responsible for everything that happened in FOTJ. The difference is in every equation is that the further away you get from the person the less responsibility is applied. Vergere and Lumiya are indirectly responsible for the events of FOTJ as well, but far more responsible than the others I mentioned, as though all actions directly led into Jacen becoming Caedus, there's were the one's that had the most to do with it. The amount of influence that every event, ever person had on that character doing what he did is how you decide who or what's to blame. Jacen's actions are the reason Luke was exiled. Jacen destroying Centerpoint is why Abeloth was released. Not sure how those can even be argued.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Oct 17, 2012
  9. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    Jacen didnt destroy center point, Lukes.....faction helpd the reaserher guy Jacen wanted to execute for failure for something sabotaged Centerpoint to self target if it was used again. Some nutter trageted and aimed it at Corsucant int it took itself out. And anyone who was onboard at the time.
  10. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Lumiya yes, Vergere no.

    Lumiya's allegations about Vergere were either based on inaccurate information relayed through Krayt or were just Lumiya's own lies. They do not tie up with the information from "Rogue Planet" or what Vergere herself revealed in the NJO series.
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  11. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2011
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    I agree. I only mention her because it seems like the current writers have all been ordered to go with the idea that Lumiya was telling the truth. Still baffles me that Jacen didn't really even seem to question it or think about it after leaving the asteroid.

    @Likewater that's right i'd forgotten. One of those Mindwalkers merely said him changing the future was responsible or something.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Oct 17, 2012
  12. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Since when did Sith ever tell the truth! [face_laugh]

    From my re-read, I got the distinct impression that Lumiya was not only the one that orchastrated Jacen's fall from the very beginning, but that she also played a large part in stirring up the GA/Corellian conflict. I can't make up my mind if Sal-Solo was innocent (and just 'fitted up' as the perpetrator) or if he was actually working alongside her - and got shafted when he had served his purpose, as per usual with the Sith!

    Jacen seems to have had his head in the future rather too much - and (as he had murdered Nelani as an answer to his visions of him eventually killing Luke) he was Dark-tainted by the time he left.
  13. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2011
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    I don't have my copy on hand, and have only read the novel once, but I remember that Lumiya did something that helped kick the war off. I assumed she was lying about Vergere, but then we went through the series and it was confronted, and then we got Krayt's backstory and it was never confronted, so I was like "The hell is this?" I'll have to pick up the novel from my cousin's and check it out again.

    Remember Akanah noted that he possessed his uncle's power, but lacked his light. I didn't take that to mean he was dark, just that he was a little flawed. 5 years later however he was a complete nut apparently. He payed attention to his visions far too much, didn't seem to think that anything he saw was wrong. I think a major problem with the character at that point was that he wasn't satisfied with his life. (That's how it came off to me anyways) He wanted something more, to have a special purpose, which led to Lumiya sensing and manipulating that.
  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Jacen also has a history of misinterpreting 'visions'! Remember that one early in the Vong war where he went to free the slaves and had to be bailed out by Luke?

    Yeah, life as an ordinary Jedi could look a little tame once he had been as close to 'oneness with the Force' (without dying!) as he was during his battle with Omni!
  15. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    That was the most infuriating thing about LOTF, Jacen story arc in NJO was learning visons are not set in stone, are vague, may not apply to the situation you find yourself in, its his entier arc from Vector Prime to Traitor and it was all flushed down the space toilet.
  16. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
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    yep. Which is why the NJO was all that, and why everything since sucks
  17. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
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    even though i love the compassionate, messianic, hero Luke, I would have liked to see Luke go the dark side, but be redeemed in the end. Many times it is made obvious that the dark side hounded Luke for most of his life, but he never truly fell. because of that i would have no problem with a novel having him fall to the dark side when he was younger, and then being redeemed.
  18. Karohalva Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2008
    star 2
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the general consensus here that altering the future did not kill Jacen because, basically, tomorrow never comes?
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    It's still very unclear to me atm - that's why I'm re-reading the entire arc.

    What seem to have changed, though, is the timing of Krayt's move on the Galaxy - so perhaps small acts by Jacen (killing Mara and causing Luke to go after and kill Lumiya; sending Ben to Ziost, thereby releasing Ship to find the Lost Tribe - and make them spacefarers again - then provide Abeloth with Galactic mobility) are the 'changing the future' part.

    Abeloth being loose certainly forced Krayt to combine with Luke to deal with her - and the consequence of that was that Luke became aware of a second Sith prescence somewhere about (even if it was only in the form of one being).

    Jacen was killed because he had been turned into a Sith Lord - although I would have thought it would have made more tactical and strategic sense to capture him, confine him and attempt to turn him back.
  20. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    I've never understood why the Order went right to, 'we have to kill Jacen'. It seems that redemption is only for those who don't believe in other Force ideas.

    Like Jenari, I'd forgotten the details of Centerpoint's destruction. The question, than, is this: If HE didn't destroy Centerpoint can we still hold him responsible for Abeloth?
  21. GrandMasterKatarn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2008
    star 4
    I don't. I blame Luke for Abeloth's release. It was Luke's idea to destroy Centerpoint when Jacen wanted to take it over. For all we know, Jacen would've used it to destroy Korriban (and therefore the One Sith) and Abeloth (thus preventing the whole Force Psychosis in FOTJ).
    SiouxFan likes this.
  22. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Well...

    ... Jacen forced the galaxy down a path which resulted in the destruction of Centerpoint. It wasn't the fact that he destroyed Centerpoint, it was that he committed an act which resulted in a chain of consequences that would eventually release Abeloth.
  23. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Well...

    ...actually the conflict was orchastrated by Lumiya! Note that she told Jacen that the other Sith in the Galaxy were wannabe Sith Apprentices while she told Alema that there was a plan that would be carried on with even if she was killed.

    Also note that it was Lumiya who laid the trail to get Ben to Ziost.

    Could it be that Lumiya was (in fact) collaborating with Krayt? How bably would Krayt's Yuuzhan Vong additions have affected his power as a Sith Lord, as compared to Jacen?
  24. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    I've had similar thoughts as well. Luke DID send Jacen to disable/destroy Centepoint at the beginning of Betrayal after all.
    This just seems...circular. It seems that your saying: Even though it's not Jacen's fault Abeloth was realeased it is still Jacen's fault because someone else, who was fighting to stop Jacen, destroyed Centerpoint, releasing Abeloth. Therefore, it's Jacen' fault.

    This is the point I was trying to make to Jenari: how far do we take this chain of events? To me, blaming Jacen for EVERYTHING (okay, I'm exagerating, but not by much) seems to be akin of blaming Germany for ALL of WWI. Sure, the Germans attacked first, but there was a LONG trail of events to get there. Why are we NOT blaming the Corellians in general, and Sal-Solo in particular, for this? After all, he 'shot Archduke Ferdinand' with his decision to secede. Without Corellia acting like South Carolina in 1860, Jacen Solo remains the Jedi 'philosopher' that most deride.

    Contrary to what most of you probably think, I am not trying to hold Jacen blameless, I am just pointing that life is not as clear-cut as we would like to believe. There was a LONG trail of events that led to Apocolypse, and all players involved should be held accountable, not just one person.
  25. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Hmmm...maybe that is what the 'life changing' topic of Crucible is supposed to be: that Jacen was simply a pawn played by Lumiya.