Lit Did altering the future kill Jacen?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TheWiseJedi, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    What really gets me is just how out of character it is for Luke to not want to redeem Jacen, because there have been numerous times throughout the EU where he has attempted to redeem darksiders who weren't his nephew. (Brakiss he tried to redeem 3 times for God's sake, Kueller, Kyp, etc.)

    Again, that mindwalker guy did say it was him changing the future that caused it all, so the in universe answers seems to be it's Jacen's fault for taking the actions that he did, and that if he hadn't that Centerpoint wouldn't have been destroyed.

    I think that blame can be passed around to many people with some being more responsible than others. Like Daala exiling Luke is specifically Jacen, and then Lumiya for having been...I guess the catalyst for his fall. IDK, depends on if you think he would've fallen regardless. The Mandalorians occupying the Temple however you can blame on Daala, Caedus, Lumiya, Boba Fett, etc.
  2. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 6, 2012
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    The lack of effort to even try is my biggest gripe of LotF.

    Yeah, but 'in universe' seems to all believe that Luke turned to the Dark Side for a while, yet that is being debated all the time as well. As to Daala, look at it from the point of view that Harry Truman had: The Buck Stops Here. Luke is the head of the Jedi Order, one of HIS Jedi became a Sith. I'm in the military, and if one of my subordinates does something dumb, then I get called to answer for it. The fact that Luke did not attempt to redeem Jacen is, in my view, bucking responsibility. The Old Testament story of Cain and Abel applies: 'Am I my brother's keeper?' I would answer, 'Yes'.

    I am not suggesting that Daala was correct in exiling Luke, but I do think that it was withen her rights to call him to account for what happened. Daala was 'elected' by people who had opposed Jacen, so I really don't follow how her actions came from what Jacen did.

    There are many who think that Jacen was 'doomed to fall' after Traitor. I find this to be myopic. It seems to suggest that there is only one way to look at the Force and that any other views must, by default, lead to darkness. Jacen fell because he was left alone for far too long and forgot how to trust people.
  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I believe it was Kevin J Anderson who interpreted events in Dark Empire as "Luke fell/was corrupted- but Leia redeemed him"- in the Essential Guide to Characters, and in the Jedi Academy trilogy.

    Zahn was the first author to suggest he "didn't fall, but willingly dabbled in the Dark Side".
  4. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    on the Abeloth/Centerpoint subject.... How in the heck could Luke have known that disabling or destroying Centerpoint would unleash a dark side monster? He could never haver known that. So why blame him?
  5. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

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    SiouxFan:

    But Luke *Did* try. He risked his life to go after Jacen in an X-wing to try to capture and redeem him. Jacen told Luke that he wasn't Luke's father and didn't need redemption. He then put innocents between himself and Luke so that Luke would risk endangering them by trying to get to Jacen. So it was Jacen who refused the redemption that was offered.



    Iron_lord:
    Luke didn't fall in DE. He didn't commit any evil acts. Leland Chee confirmed this in his comments about DE in the Luke omnibus: Luke Skywalker, the last hope of the galaxy. Lee said, Luke "nearly gave in to the dark side in DE".


    And Jedi Matteus, I'm glad that Luke didn't fall to the dark side. Anakin and Jacen already did that. We don't need to have all the Skywalker males fall. It's far more heroic to be able to resist the temptations of the dark side. We have far too many fallen heroes and anti-heroes, in my opinion. I like to see heroes who remain morally strong; who do what is right and good and not what is evil.
  6. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    i understand you position.
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    If it were to happen: Would you be held responsible for one of your subordinates criminal actions by military police? The question is where does the personal responsibility end and hierarchy of management / chain of command begin? I'm quite certain if I do something criminally wrong, my manager is not going to take the blame unless it was determined she knew what I was doing and turned a blind eye. There have to be limits to how far chain of command otherwise subordinates would effectively be given a blank cheque to act however they wish!

    Did Luke do that in LOTF? If I go by Sinny's summary of LOTF, the story moves damn fast, faster than any sort of investigation that Luke might have ordered into Jacen's conduct, had sufficient cause and evidence to initiate, could have reported by. If you're going to talk of management and due process then it needs to be recognised that takes time - time that, by all accounts, neither Lumiya or Jacen was going to permit.
  8. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 6, 2012
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    Because we are blaming Jacen who didn't know either.
    Yes. I WOULD get called in to explain why they may have done what they did. I AM accountable for their actions, on or off duty. Your manager MUST provide evidence that she did NOT 'turn a blind eye'. There is NO limit to how far this chain of command works, because if my subordinate gets into a criminal altercation (say he gets into a brawl at a local pub) then the Base Commander will get a phone call and he will have to placate the local authorities. Naturally, crap flows down hill and eventually I have to placate my boss AND the Base commander. This is why I feel that Daala was within her rights as Chief-of-State to question Luke.

    Child: This was AFTER other Jedi had already attacked Jacen, correct? If you were Jacen, would you think Luke to be sincere? Jaina voices concerns about Jacen, both to herself and to Luke, and neither think it to serious to warrant further attention until it was too late.
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Yeah, but in the scenario I have in mind, you have, in your role as superior, done everything that could reasonably be expected of you! Now you can say it'd be highly unlikely, that military training is designed to stop this sort of happening - which I'd agree with - but, for the sake of argument - let's say we have an individual who doesn't give a toss for anything, you get ripped to shreds by your boss, so you do the same to said individual, but they keep on doing it. At some point, it is going to be quite clear that you have a complete liability and waste of space, who is that by their own choice and volition. What happens then? How responsible are you for them? What is to stop a subordinate from thinking: I can do what I like because I'm not responsible for what I do?

    Hmm, that's a point: If one of your guys gets in pub brawl there are likely sanctions for disciplining them, aren't there? All the way up to court-martial if warranted? In which case are there a Jedi equivalents?
  10. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    I do believe that the literature cites some form of confinement area in the Temple, other that the isolation wing of the Healers' section.
  11. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Jacen was keeping on the move - and was (because of his ability to 'hide in the Force') not all that readily trackable. The operation on Coruscant did have a 'capture' option as one of its layers - but none of the Jedi involved were strong enough to exercise it after Kyle got injured. Would have made more sense IMO if Luke, Saba, Kyp and Jaina had been on that strike team too.

    The Force-sensitives on Sinkhole Station were all (to one degree or another) under Abeloth's influence - that's why they were there in the first place; also (IIRC) why they were trying to decieve Luke and even trying to let him get so weak that he died! So what reliance can we place on their evidence?
  12. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    But are the Jedi a military order, a religeous order or a philisophical order? Also, don't forget that Jacen was (strictly speaking) not part of the Jedi at the time, but head of the Galactic Alliance Guard, he'd mostly cut himself away from the Jedi.

    Jacen could have been captured with a little preparation and cooperation by Lando (and the authors!) - a dozen YVH droids fitted with ysalamiri would probably have done the trick. That Luke didn't might well have had something to do with grief over Mara's death, Luke's slaying of Lumiya under a misapprehension and any Dark-side taint that Luke had acquired over that.

    Daala had an agenda - to make the Jedi an arm of the GA, possibly as her Executive hit-squad; so the whole thing was (as I believe was understood by Luke, which is why he didn't put forward any sort of real defence) a drum-head, kangeroo-type process.

    I think that any of us could have fully answered Daala's allegations in the early part of "Outcast"; but even the best defence will fail if the trier-of-fact isn't willing to listen!
  13. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    In my mind, Sioux, the point where Jacen actively began to meddle with the future was in Joiner King, when he dragged the Hapans into the Killik Crisis. Then, in Unseen Queen, where he pushed the Swarm War to happen. Then, he purposely killed Nelani over Lumiya.

    Let's assume Jacen had not pulled Hapes into the Killik Crisis; the GA doesn't get concerned about its members dragging it into their wars with external powers. The Dark Nest doesn't start reaching out to GA arms corporations and the GA doesn't then have to impose new laws to control them and its members. This directly causes the Dark Nest to target the GA. Jacen then triggers the Swarm War, and the GA goes ahead with said motions. The anti-GA factions thus find purchase among disenfranchised worlds, corporations and populations.

    Let's assume Jacen doesn't try to kill Sal-Solo; Sal-Solo in turn does not target the Solos, dragging the Mandalorians into conflict with the GA by way of Aliyn, and his later assassination does not generate more sympathy for Corellia.

    Let's assume Jacen killed or captured Lumiya; the Corellians and other factions do not have a unifying force behind them, and the crisis is diffused by further politics or the blockade. We don't (presumably) have a terror attack on Coruscant which creates the GAG, either, turning the GA into a dictatorship; there is no widespread war and Centerpoint is rendered inactive yet again.

    Without Jacen working with Lumiya to nurture the crisis for their own respective ends, the war never happens, and there is no push for Centerpoint to be reactivated and then destroyed by whoever needs to destroy it. Without it being destroyed, Abeloth is not released. In point-of-fact, without Jacen and Lumiya there is no GAG, there is no need for Pellaeon to resign, and there is no reason for the Remnant to get involved and for Pellaeon to die and for nanotech to be hurled at Hapans, which itself leads to Allana on a White Throne. Without Jacen and Lumiya there is no-one to wake up Ship, who Abeloth then uses to escape the Maw, after using the Lost Tribe to enable her activities.

    Jacen Solo perpetuates all of the above.

    He is the person pushing along the entire Second Galactic Civil War, a crisis which should have been diffused as painlessly as the First Corellian Insurrection. Instead, the crisis is attached to lingering conflicts and personalities from the first Galactic Civil War, such as Lumiya and Daala, and the Yuuzhan Vong War by way of it taking advantage of the period in which Luke Skywalker, Cal Omas, Tenel Ka and Pellaeon should have been handing over power to a new generation.

    It is not so much about what Jacen knew - as nobody knew about Abeloth (apart from maybe Daala, I reckon). It's about his choices, which thrust the galaxy, one step at a time, into a future that should never have happened.
    DarthJenari and ChildOfWinds like this.
  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    @Sinrebirth

    Do we know when Krayt had originally planned to kick off his attempt to be the second Palpatine (I haven’t seen or read Legacy)?. We do know that he had to delay it – due to the fallout from Jacen’s alleged actions.

    Fair comment about the Dark Nest Crisis, although would Gorog have been exposed and defeated without Jacen’s actions?

    I’m undecided if Sal-Solo was directly involved in the Saxan assassination or whether he was just set up to take the blame for it. He certainly benefited from that event - and he was the one that was both intent on putting Centerpoint (a weapon of mass destruction) back on line and had built a planetary assault fleet.

    Lumiya was definitely, and directly, involved with the Saxan assassination – whether in collaboration with Sal-Solo or with in line with Krayt’s plans.

    Lumiya sought Jacen out, rather than the other way around.

    Jacen was unable to see any future where Nelani lived and he didn’t end up killing Luke (no matter what happened to Lumiya); although I grant you that his interpretations of Force Visions have always left something to be desired. Luke’s continued survival was, however, a benefit to the Jedi and (the law-abiding and peace-loving beings in) the Galaxy.

    Considering that Lumiya was closely involved with bumping off selected Bothans left right and centre, she also had means and opportunity to do the Coruscant bombing. The motive being (as with the Saxan assassination) to increase tensions between the GA and Corellia; with a possible further motive of manoeuvring Jacen into a position of power and influence.

    With Lumiya dead or captured, would the unifying force behind the dissent have been Krayt? There doesn’t seem to by anything in the texts to say that he was definitely not involved – but Lumiya’s comment to Alema aboard the “Anakin Solo” about a plan being followed suggest that he might well have been.

    Lumiya was the Prime Mover in most, if not all of the above, whether working for Krayt or not.
  15. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 6, 2012
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    Okay, I feel like I got gang-tackled, but here we go:
    I think I see what your getting at, and the short answer is that they get kicked out of the military. You might say, 'So what, they got fired.' But it is a MUCH bigger deal than that. Good luck getting into school or getting a decent job with a 'Dishonorable Discharge' record.
    This is one of the fundamental questions of this board, and one that I would LOVE to get an answer to. Although, the fact that all Jedi carry weapons and many fly fighters would point to the quasi-military answer. Yes, but he DID answer to Omas as head of the GAG, so he was subordinate to someone.

    SINRE: To blame this entire mess of the post-TUF EU on one character seems to be over-simplistic and wishful. I'm not going to change your mind, so I am not even going to try. To me, the Dark Nest represented a clear and present danger to both the Chiss and the galaxy as a whole, and Jacen acted in a way to prevent the Killiks from expanding. It seems that you think that were it not for one Jacen Solo, all of these conflicts would have just been dusted under the rug. From your posting here, and from your fantastic story, you clearly believe that Jacen came back from where ever he was bent on 'global domination'. I feel that this runs counter to the way his story unfolded in the books as they were released.

    There was a five-year period from the end of the Killik crisis to the start of the Corellian one. If your hypothesis were right, these would have occurred closer together. Sal-Solo was acting in accordance with the way he ALWAYS had, and wanted Corellian independence. It was his saber-rattling that lead to the riots on Coruscant and the forming of the GAG. Jacen only took the job after Mara turned it down.

    What started as 'Jacen knew about Abeloth and therefore is to blame for FotJ.' has now turned into: 'It doesn't matter what Jacen knew, it only mattered what he did.' This strikes me as a rigged trial; clearly most think him guilty for Abeloth regardless of the evidence.

    Contrary to what you all might think, I don't think Jacen is blameless, but neither do I think he came back from his journey of self-discovery with a desire to become the next Sith tragedy. I am of the belief that circumstances forced him into acting in what he thought to be in the best interest of his daughter. I wish more than anyone that he had talked to someone, anyone, about what he saw on that damned asteroid, but he didn't.
    Tim Battershell likes this.
  16. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    I'd say we ought to see if anyone's tried to dig out what the Jedi actually are, and start a new thread if not!

    If Jacen was accountable to Omas, then how did Daala assume that Luke had any further authority over him?

    Unfortunately, by the time he'd left the asteroid, Jacen had killed a fellow Jedi - not something one would want to talk to anyone about!
  17. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Not my intention! It's a LotF topic, I couldn't help it!


    I would not say that the conflicts would never have happened... but I would say I do not think they would have happened in the way they did. Rampant militancy and neo-Imperialism was rife after the Vong War - which is a natural reaction to the galaxy getting crushed by the Yuuzhan Vong due to Borsk's inept leadership, which backfired on democracy. There was, thus, no way it wouldn't have ended with the central government trying to reign in the more militant members, resulting in some kind of internal conflict. That was very likely. Which is also why I consider Daala's appointment to be in the same vein. The rampant neo-Imperialism was not going to vanish because Caedus had a five month reign of terror. It did make the galaxy very hyper about another Caedus, which is why Daala was objected to very vocally by the populace of Coruscant when she started down the nutter path... which is why the populace allowed for the Jedi to take over so compliantly - they saw it was necessary, and when Daala had pocket-genocide in mind, no surprises that she was removed.

    Lumiya admitted to shaping opinion when it came to the GAG and to pushing Niathal along; she was in all likelihood responsible for the first bombing on Coruscant; I have no proof, because Bloodlines is deliberately vague. He definitely not the sole reason for the Second Galactic Civil War, but he was a significant contributing factor. Circumstances definitely pushed him a certain way, but Jacen was a full grown man... to me, he knew, on some level, what he was doing. I also do not consider him to be a Sith. He was beyond such definitions, and acting to achieve a goal using all methods and philosophy he had available. He may have fell into the role of a Sith, insofar as much as Revan, Kreia and Vergere did at points in their lives, but it was not who he was.




    We know that Jacen's actions allegedly delayed him. We also know Krayt was replacing individuals with pre-programmed clones prior to FotJ. We also know that Allana was going to be beside Krayt during her lifetime. So we know Krayt was due to emerge sooner than 127 ABY...




    Well, the Jedi were on the trail of the two Dark Jedi, so I would say it was a matter of inevitability. Jacen definitely sped along events!




    Sal-Solo was definitely set up to take the blame, I'd say. Lumiya was, as noted in Exile, being the Puppeteer!



    Though Jacen sought Sith knowledge; he visited Ziost.




    I would argue Jacen knew Luke was the galaxies best chance to stop the Dark Man when he emerged, but by then it would be too late for Allana...

    That is a valid point. Krayt may have stepped into the role that Lumiya had taken, but Krayt had always intended to stay out of the galaxy at large until his horde was ready. So I don't see how events would have been pushed to an all out war without someone visibly taking the reigns of the Alliance, which is what Krayt would not have done. Lumiya couldn't, being who she was, but she could make it so someone could take the power she was releasing from the chaos.
    I suspect Lumiya was looking to get the One Sith wiped out by connecting Alema to them. Alema herself intended to wipe them all out when she was finished with Leia. The encounter on Korriban or on the asteroid could have very easily resulted in Luke getting wind of the One Sith and killing them all off, believing they were behind Jacen. As it was, Lumiya's involvement ended up with Krayt exposing the One Sith three years after she died anyway, which I doubt was within Krayt's plans!
  18. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Though in TUF his visions in Balance Point come true.

    Both him missing the lightsaber and him being told to 'stand firm' against Onimi...

    ... and then he heads to the Aing-Tii, who note that the future does converge, though it is indeed in motion...

    ... and then he sees the Throne of Balance...

    ... and then he has a baby who he recognises as Allana...

    His visions keep coming true.

    No surprises that he believes them.
  19. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

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    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    SiouxFan :
    The Jedi group didn't go with the sole plan of attacking Jacen. If it was possible, they could have captured him so that the Jedi could try to return him to the Light. As someone said though, once Kyle was injured, they no longer had that option.

    Yes, I think Jacen should have thought that Luke was sincere in trying to capture him in order to try to redeem him. As Luke himself said to Jacen when he was in that X-wing, he COULD have killed Jacen if he had wanted to. If Luke was able to get close enough to Jacen's ship to damage it with his own, he obviously could have even more easily shot Jacen out of space with far less risk to himself.

    Besides, Luke has been his devoted, loving uncle for his entire life, and his mentor for most of it. Jacen knows what kind of person Luke is. He knows Luke has tried to redeem many who seemed incapable of redemption in the past. Of course he would want to do the same for his sister's son. Remember how when Jacen sort of "returned from the dead" in Traitor, how Luke said something like, "My boy! My boy!" in sheer joy.

    And I think that's a big part of why Luke didn't think that Jacen was so dark in LotF. I think he trusted and loved his nephew too much and couldn't bring himself to believe that he would go Sith. Even when it was obvious that Jacen was doing some very bad things, Luke put the blame on Lumiya, figuring that she was the one who was influencing Jacen and that once she was out of the picture, Jacen would be pretty easy to "fix". What Luke didn't know at the time was that Jacen was working as Lumiya's Sith partner and that he had made his choices with no coercion.

    Plus, it's also important to remember that this entire story took place in less than a year. Jacen went from a galactic hero to Sith to dead in that short period of time. So it's not like Luke knew for a long time about how evil Jacen was and did nothing to try to stop him or help him. Luke didn't realize how far gone Jacen was until near the end of the series.


    But Jacen didn't even HAVE a daughter when he came back from his five year journey. Yet, he was already doing questionable things, like mind-wiping Ben; tricking his fellow Jedi into taking action which started a war; turning Tenel Ka's grandmother into a vegetable; sleeping with Tenel Ka to obtain the use of her fleet; encouraging Luke to use anger and hatred to make himself powerful; and doing some rather evil things to Tenel Ka's guards.

    You're certainly right though that Jacen should have talked to someone.... especially Luke... about his concerns. For one thing, Luke would have reminded him that "always in motion" is the future. So just because Jacen saw a vision, it doesn't mean it will necessarily come to pass.... And that's a lesson that Jacen should have learned already early in the NJO. But just in case, Luke and Jacen could have made plans together to try to prevent the worst-case scenerio.... And any other choice would have been better than Jacen going Sith. He became a definite present evil to try to prevent a possible future evil. Does that make any sense? That kind of logic doesn't work for me.
    Last edited by ChildOfWinds, Oct 19, 2012
  20. Likewater Jedi Grand Master

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    Yes but never in the way he thinks they will, the "Stand Firm" which he agonized over in Balance Point did not occur untill what 3 or 4 years later, and after he became a very diffrent jedi.

    His visions like Melisandre from A Song of Fire And Ice come true, but without proper context the seer often misinterprets it. Jacen in NJO Between VP and Traitor seemed to treat his visions as gosple desite them (as far as he knew) failing him. They came true in ways he couldnt at the time imagine.

    He saw Allana as a Dark person on the Throne of Balance, did he consider he was a Double Agent in a postion than made her a folcrum in history?

    Jacen visions came true in ways he couldnt at the time predict, a few years. And learning not to treat them as gosple, in lotf tries to predict future a Lifetime from his present? Thats backsliding character development.
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    OS,

    Always fun swapping posts with you - everything I've seen from people in this area adds up to one point - Jacen cared nothing for the consequences of his actions. The problem is just about every sanction any kind of organisation has ever had works on the opposite basis! In theory then, Luke could have expelled Jacen from the Jedi - had he the time to investigate, unless expulsion should be on Luke's say so whenever he likes? But Jacen wouldn't have lost any of his abilities or stopped what he was doing, would he? If Luke did strip him of being a Jedi does that end the hierarchy of responsibility you're arguing for or would it be seen instead as a dubious political act?

    What tends to happen in this line of discussion is notions of responsibilty become opposed, but it's probably more accurate to say they exist side by side, that Luke has some responsibility for the acts of the Jedi that are under him but that does not mean each Jedi is not responsible for their acts. Where do the two part? I'd place that as being at the point of criminal action.

    Problem is, for all we may want to invoke due process, LOTF seems to have been explicitly designed so nothing of that kind could possibly work!
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Oct 19, 2012
  22. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    I don't see how Luke not attempting to redeem Jacen can be seen as him therefore being responsible for Jacen's actions. That'd be the opposite in fact if he had spent time trying to do it, more people had died, the situation had gotten worse, and Daala ends up with more ammo against Luke. I'm not a military man, but I don't think the Jedi Order can be fully compared to an army. That's one of the points that's been a constant argument since DNT. And when Jacen did everything he did he wasn't just a member of the Order, he had a legitimate position in the government and military, something Daala never took into account. Luke's Order has never sought to supersede the authority of the government, which Luke could've easily ended up doing had he just gone in and made Jacen stop his little GAG routine and everything else he was doing. That's then Luke placing his Order at odds with the reigning government he's chosen to support up until this moment. You have two leaders (Luke and Cal), one of an organization that doesn't strictly operate with one person telling another what he can or cannot do, and another who does exactly that. If any leader should've been brought up on Jacen's actions it should've been Omas. He was of course dead.

    I fail to see how, when Daala exiling Luke, was because of the actions Jacen took. I'm not speaking of how she ended up in power due to the war, but that Luke was exiled for dereliction of duty (Which is why I say even him attempting to redeem Jacen wouldn't have changed him being exiled. He was exiled for the failure to stop Jacen falling at all, not for not trying to redeem him), which was defined as allowing Jacen to fall. If we look at the Jedi as a strictly military organization, she has something of a point. However the Jedi aren't just a military organization (Really they can't be because of the way they operate), and one of their basic tenets has always been personal accountability. Jacen's brother said it himself when he talked to his uncle, that every Jedi has to be their own light, and that's how the order has always operated.

    Jacen fell for a myriad of reasons, but if you go by the current series and attempt to pin it down to one its because he was basically saying screw the galaxy in favor of his daughter. And by that of course I mean he wanted her to be in a "safe" galaxy, but more than that he didn't want her to be in any danger and to be alive. What happened to everyone else was inconsequential where she was concerned. And of course you can then say it's could also be blameed due to an over-reliance on his visions. As others have pointed out he had something of a history of screwing up visions, and even then i'd think Luke would teach every Jedi based off his own personal experience, in which the future was always in motion. The problem with Jacen is that he gets a vision, and immediately assumes it is a set future that he must actively work to change, in the same way his grandfather did with his visions. Wanting to protect a child is a noble thing, however the road to hell is of course paved with good intentions. And we now know that Jacen was on this path of "saving the galaxy" no matter the cost as far back as a few years before Allana was even born, when all he had was a vision of her, which again just goes back into his reliance on visions.

    @Tim Battershell If you seek to doubt one thing they said you then have too look at everything they said and attempt to find doubt in it. Based on their interactions with Luke I see no reason for them to lie. They gain nothing and neither does Abeloth.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Oct 20, 2012
  23. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    the short answer is: NO, Jaina did kill him and turn Dark Side for it but nobody noticed!
  24. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    @DarthJenari

    The problem is that I've re-read up to about the middle of Sacrifice so far, and (apart from Jacen killing Nelani to avoid having to kill Luke later) I've found nothing that would 'change the future' to any great extent - and I feel that it would have to have been a rather prominent single decision to be the cause of an Abeloth-event. ISTR that both a change to the Balance of the Force and changing the future are required - Sidious and Plagueis tipped the Balance of the Force (possibly causing the Force to generate the "Chosen One" as a compensating act) but that didn't free Abeloth.

    The Mindwalkers had been summoned by Abeloth (as she was also, so it is implied, trying to summon the 'psychotic Jedi') so they obviously were (had been) influenced by her. There is also the "tempting" of Luke by his escorts to drink from the Font and bathe in the Pool - both of which activities they knew that Jacen hadn't done.

    I'm not suggesting that it was an out-and-out lie, rather (in the same vein as the notorious 'certain point of view') that it was based on a skewed perception.

    As an avid viewer of CSI, I want some clear evidence before acctepting a simple, uncorroberated, statement as gospel!
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Oct 20, 2012
  25. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Every discussion about Jacen and Abeloth and Sith just seems to make me think of this these days:

    [IMG]

    Someone should make a Jacen going Sith one for that. :p
    Jedi Ben likes this.