Lit Did altering the future kill Jacen?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TheWiseJedi, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Well that isn't really something you can say though is it? Any action no matter how small can change the future. I'd say the minute Jacen had the vision of Allana and set himself on his course he was already changing the future, at least the future he'd seen, because he was setting out to specifically prevent that event from occuring. This of course leads to things happening that probably wouldn't have happened if he hadn't had that vision, as that vision is the major reason for his change in personality. If you wanted to pin it down to a single thing that would've led to Abeloth being released, then it was inevitably Jacen having that vision of Allana (Based on how events played out, as its hard to argue what ifs in terms of what might've happened) because everything he did from that point on was based around that vision. So the vision was the catalyst through which the future was effected. If Jacen hadn't had that vision, there would've been no reason for him to take any of the actions he did (unless of course the writers had presented him with another reason, such as Tenal Ka dying or something) You see what i'm saying? I'm disregarding what ifs and just looking at what actually happened, and in that sense I believe that's how you'd explain Jacen being the cause of Abeloth's release. That having the vision of the future, and steadfastly deciding to do everything you can to change it, already changed it to some extent. That at that moment, Jacen of course couldn't tell, but the future had already changed and his path was already set out before him. Everything he was going to do, had already happened in the future.

    I understand what you're saying however, that the Mindwalkers are like when Lumiya told Jacen about Vergere being a Sith. Very dubious at best, and with unknown motives and intentions.

    And remember Abeloth was never freed before becuase of Cenerpoint.
  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    CSI uses a strict, rational framework that is entirely absent here! Nor is it likely, logically, that you will find evidence for the later statement in the earlier book because chances are the later point had not been conceived of, never mind considered.
  3. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Point taken!

    That said, it’s rather unusual for series authors (and we’re talking about Denning for DNT as well as one third of LotF and FotJ) to throw the equivalent of a skifter into the storyline by not having some kind of forward plan before they start on long-term arcs. Frank Herbert did it with his Dune Universe, George Lucas did it (forward and backward) with the OT, PT and the abandoned third trilogy (or so it appeared both from his comments about SW at the time and a series of three storylines that were up on the Web a few years ago) and J Michael Straczynski did it with Babylon 5 – even if he later had to use the famous ‘trap doors’ to get around actors not being available/wanting to do other things.
  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Oh, I agree, if I'm buying a long series I need a certain level of confidence in that the author knows what the hell they're doing! One criteria tends to be: Do they know how many books it's going to be? If yes, followed by a number - that's encouraging; if no, then uh oh, amber lights are lit! Though, I'm sceptical on Lucas and there being a grand plan - there's 20 years between the 2 sets of films, they're different works by different people because life changes you greatly.
    SiouxFan likes this.
  5. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Could the trigger have been Jacen killing Mara? That is described as producing a mighty shift in the Force and (according to Lumiya, anyway) Jacen then became another Sith Lord - a rival to the as yet unseen Krayt?
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Oct 20, 2012
  6. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    Altering Jacen killed the future.
  7. JStepp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2011
    star 2
    This, a million times this. The Post ROTJ EU has greatly suffered since TUF. LOTF was just god awful. They should have never made jacen go dark. Hell I think FOTJ would have been ten times more interesting if LOTF had never happened, and it had a Jacen vs. Abeloth story line. Jacen and Ben should have discovered the Lost Tribe. Luke should be fulfilling a yoda role right now and so when they do use him its a HUGE deal.


    I cannot identify with Ben Skywalker like I did with Jacen. He is a Gary Stu. When Ben became a Jedi at age 14 I almost stopped reading Star Wars.
  8. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I have seriously been wondering how I am supposed to want to read the main storyline of the post-NJO, especially LotF, ever since I found out what they came up with for a "storyline" of the era.
  9. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Sigh. I was really enjoying this thread, too.
    SiouxFan likes this.
  10. JStepp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2011
    star 2
    One of the worst parts of LOTF is that Luke and Mara actually beat Han and Leia, in the worst parents in Star Wars competition that apparently the authors have going. Allowing 13 year old Ben to become a child soldier for the secret police is just ridiculous. Well thats until FOTJ and Allana's hijinks won the Solo's back their crown.
  11. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Trouble is, Luke was trained to be an anti-Palpatine human Lightsaber and had years of being only-Jedi-in-the-Galaxy. At heart, he's a front-line man (like his father, and even Jacen Solo) and a "Management" role doesn't really interest him.

    Anakin Skywalker went on the Rogue Planet mission at a similar age to Ben - as other Padawan-learners seem to have done wih their Masters.

    The Mandalorians apparently take their children into combat (for training purposes) from age eight; and they are counted as being 'of age' at thirteen - usually married at sixteen.

    It's a different Galaxy/Universe to ours!

    Even in our Galaxy/Universe, quite young children acted as intelligence gatherers during WW2, 'Ship's boys' (some as young as 10) were the 'powder monkeys' in the wooden-wall warships in the Napoleonic era; some Midshipmen in the same era (junior officers - also apprentice officers, not at all unlike Padawans) were as young as twelve; and I can't see children of that sort of age not contributing to the defence of a wagon-train or homestead (provided they were physically able to handle a rifle's recoil) in the US Old-West.
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Oct 21, 2012
  12. JStepp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2011
    star 2
    I'm not saying that Ben shouldn't serve as a Padawan but he should have been in the academy. the jedi for the most part, well at least the ojo kept their apprentices in the temple until about 15 as I recall. But even serving as a Padawan is very different then being a commando in the S.S. In fact I don't think any jedi should serve in the secret police
  13. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Well, Anakin wasn't 15 in Rogue Planet.

    And Ben was taken out of the standard teaching system by Luke and Jacen because of the nature of Ben and the Force. I assume you are also against Ben's mission to Centerpoint or to track down the owner of the tassels?
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I think Jacen Solo is a mess characterization wise. It's difficult to really feel much for him storyline wise because his motivations for becoming a Sith were unclear. Troy Denning, Aaron, and Karen were all divided on what made Jacen tick and it's all retcons at this point. Say what you will about Anakin Skywalker but at least it was clear: "I was always sort of a jerk after age 9 with possession issues that made me choose to murder millions for my wife" is semi-clear. Jacen's motivation is flat out nonsensical with the "I did it to stop my daughter/Ben/Luke/Darth Krayt from becoming a Sith Lord" is a spackle job.

    At this point, it might just be better to find the original Jacen Solo frozen in carbonite somewhere. Then once he's melted, go, "Woah!? You believed my EVIL CLONE was me!?"
  15. JStepp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2011
    star 2
    The Centrepoint mission was in the bounds of the role of Padawan. Like I said Ben acting as a Padawan learning from a Master I support. the Centrepoint mission I clearly remember was a jedi sort of mission with Jacen his then master. I don't remember the tassels mission very well, read LOTF a while ago. Anyways, what I don't support is Ben being a part of the secret police. Not only is that un jedi like, The Council or Ben's parents should have stopped a young impressionable jedi from being involved in something like that. It hurts the jedi reputation and there is precedent, namely the Jedi order barring jedi from participating in the Mandolorian wars. Besides that the 14 year old secret police officer parts of LOTF were pretty cheesy and made me cringe.
    Only 9 year old sith killer alana has made me cringe more.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I was actually more troubled by what a sucky villain Jacen was.

    His lack of motive caused a lot of that.

    You'd think if he was determined to bring ORDER to the galaxy, we'd see...some of that.
  17. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    What's the thinking on Jacen having had late-onset PTSD?
  18. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Look, I agree with your first sentence. To me, there are wa-ay too many holes in the FotJ story for me make sense of. As Sinre pointed out, however, his other visions DID come true, so Jacen came to view these as infalliable.

    Jacen did not go to Hapes with the intent of sleeping with Tenel Ka, she was the one that brought it up. Think what you want of Jacen, but he loved Tenel Ka. Ben THREW Tenel Ka and Allana against the wall in a fit of dark rage. I've always been disappointed in the mind wipe, but perhaps if Tenel Ka hadn't been so paranoid, Jacen would not have thought he needed to. Ta'Chume represented a clear and present danger to Tenel Ka, Allana, and Hapes. To think otherwise is naive.

    Look at DN from Jacen's point of view. He believes that there is NO dark side, and he thinks that Luke is not strong enough to take on Lomi Plo. From this 'no dark' argument, it IS possible to use anger to make one powerful and NOT succumb to the dark side. Don't place Luke's view of the Force onto Jacen in this case; Jacen believes he is giving good advice to his uncle: that only by using the 'full-range' of the Force can he defeat the Dark Nest.

    From my view, Luke is very wary of his nephew from the time he first returns. It's not a surprise to me at all that Jacen doesn't confide in him; although I could never understand why he didn't confide in Tenel Ka. If we take a longer view, and peace breaks out all over, than perhaps Jacen was justified in doing what he did. All of these petty little problems were going to chew the Republic up. Perhaps by getting them to boil over all at the same time DID prevent a grim future. Is one year of war better than 50 years of skirmishes?
  19. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    I don't think that it was 'late-onset', I think he always had it. Valley Lord touches on this in some of his Fanfic. Jacen's time as a POW would have HUGE effects on his thinking. I read an article about John McCain, and he mentioned having to fight his demons almost daily. I'm not suggesting that he turned all dorky because of PTSD, but I am suggesting that all of the people who loved him probably shouldn't have let him go on his sojourn by himself. Jaina should have either gone with him, talked him into spending time on Hapes, told him he was being silly for not going after Danni, or SOMETHING other than what he did. Jacen was always more of a solitary individual, and letting him spend 5 years by himself was probably more than he could handle. I've mentioned this over on the 'Jacen Solo' thread, but his friends and family stood by and watched as he 'committed suicide by Sith'.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    So much would be explained if Lumiya just cloned him and triggered the clone brainwashing with the tassles.

    It was clone madness! CLONE MADNESS!
  21. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    We know that there are infiltrator clones about - courtesy of the One Sith; so it's a possibility.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  22. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Zahn already told us the whole cast are clones back in April, duh.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    You know, I started "Darth Caedus is a Clone" as a joke but, I'm surprisingly okay with it as a theory.

    Can the EU get ANY sillier by it now that we know Darth Maul is walking around?

    Let's embrace the EU as a comic book and Jacen Solo was possessed by a Yellow Grasshopper Monster.

    (points if you get the reference)
  24. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    You may have posted as a joke, but it would explain so much…;)

    We still don’t have his full itinerary over that five year sabbatical, after all!

    Could the reference be to “Michigan: Report from Hell”, by any chance?
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Oct 22, 2012
  25. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    [IMG]

    Really after everything that's happened Caedus turning out to have been a clone and the real Jacen having been replaced during his soujurn would be the best thing to happen to the character in years.