Lit Did altering the future kill Jacen?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TheWiseJedi, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    It'll never happen; but it never hurts to dream. I had once hoped to read about his journey of self-discovery, but now...I think I'd rather have my own personal stories of what he learned, who he talked to, and who he helped, rather that some profic degradation of my favorite character.
  2. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    We don't yet know what Crucible is all about...
  3. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    Siouxfan, i am so tired of people saying that Luke did not try to redeem Jacen. YES HE DID!! He did try and redeem Jacen, and Jacen just told him that he was not Luke's Father... he does not need saving. Jacen was unredeemable. The only way you could have redeemed him was if the force showed him a vision of the monster he was becoming and showing him that it was for nothing. The future is not any safer. That did not happen. No person could have redeemed Jacen. Luke kept himself from killing jacen on several occasions to try to reason with him. Luke gave Jacen many chances, especially in "Revelation".

    Because we are blaming Jacen who didn't know either.

    i have never blamed jacen for Abeloth. I blame Jacen for Jacen, and thats it
  4. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    That's a tale I really wanted as well. I think instead of them recharting Jacen's journey in FOTJ (Especially because they didn't even go everywhere he did) they should've just done a duology/trilogy on Jacen's journey and really focused on him and how he changed. Ah well though, you can't have everything you want in this life. As it is for me, there's Jacen from his birth to TUF, there's DNT Jacen, and then everything after is Caedus.
  5. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    JediMatteus: And I'm tired so tired of people saying, 'Luke did all he could.' By sending a group of armed Jedi to aprehend him? By having a 'conversation' with him while in an ARMED X-wing? By humilating the CHIEF-OF-STATE? That's not trying, that is lecturing. Luke failed with Alema and he failed again with Jacen.

    So much is made about Jacen not sharing with Luke, but Luke could have shared his vision as well. He could have said, 'Jacen, I've had this vision of a dark man...' Why does the burden of conversation have to start with Jacen? Why does not the GRAND Master of the Jedi approach one of his fellow Jedi, his own nephew, and say, 'I'm a bit worried about where your are headed.'?

    I'll agree that by the time the conversations you mention took place, it probably was too late, but there are many points on the way where someone could've stepped in and said something to that effect.
  6. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Luke did have a conversation with him about a Dark Man.

    In Betrayal Jacen is actively looking for the Dark Man following his discussion with Luke and picks up on presence that was faintly female.

    Luke had a pretty decent conversation or two that seemed to work in Swarm War, and then Jacen betrayed his parents... Luke was trying, but the bind of the Ben/GAG/Mara situation meant Lumiya had more unrestricted access to Jacen than Luke did. Mara talks to Jacen in Bloodines, Han disowns Jacen in response to Aliyn's death, Luke talks to him again in Tempest and Jacen seems to come back to Luke's way of thinking until Alema convinces him to fire on the Falcon... Luke and Mara are poised to suggest Lumiya is influencing him when the blockade is broken, and Jacen abandons his family to die at Gilatter... and Luke and Mara both try to talk to Jacen again in Sacrifice and Jacen kills Mara.

    All of which takes place in the space of four months.

    Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council didn't manage to catch or stop Anakin falling during the entirety of the Clone Wars - three years.

    Post-Mara, Luke and other Jedi try to capture Jacen three times, and fail, getting more and more people killed.

    By the time Invincible rolls around, Jacen is poised to win the war and impose a new Empire on the galaxy... which has also taken another four months.

    At which point do you expect them to do much? Lumiya perfectly manipulated the situation. Luke and Mara worked out that they had to kill Lumiya to end the crisis, as she was the puppet master, but struggled to do so with Alema, Ship and Jacen assisting. With a war beginning and then being fought, the Jedi couldn't focus all of their might on Lumiya in the same way, during peacetime, they could withdraw from Coruscant and hunt Abeloth as a unit.
    colojedi7 and ChildOfWinds like this.
  7. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I've finally found the decision point - in The Unseen Queen when Jacen has a Force Vision of the Galaxy erupting into eternal war and elects to start it early in order to stop it. His motive was Allana.
  8. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    I'll agree that by the time the conversations you mention took place, it probably was too late, but there are many points on the way where someone could've stepped in and said something to that effect.

    no. when was luke supposed to have that conversation? WHEN! I mean you know alot more than LUKE does about those events. Luke did not know about Jacen's deeds in Dark Nest. Luke did not know Jacen had fallen to the dark side until "Inferno". The whole freaking series did not even last more than couple months. There was very little time for luke to know anything and act. Jacen is resposnible for going dark, NOT LUKE. Learn how to freaking read the eu dude.
  9. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Hey I am new to the site. So far I am greatly enjoying it. I only got into the EU a couple years ago. What is the story about the infiltrator clones?

    As far as Jacen goes...
    I think that by trying to "change" the future, you ultimately don't change a thing. I personally believe the future has already occurred. Your actions have already happened, so to speak. I think by trying to change the future, you bring it to fruition. Just my opinion though...
  10. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Welcome!

    Check out Crosscurrent and Riptide by Paul S Kemp.
  11. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks! Is Krayt present in those two novels? I kinda eat up any info I can find on him, but haven't been able to pick up Legacy yet.
    Last edited by Chewbacca89, Oct 27, 2012
  12. GrandMasterKatarn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2008
    star 4
    No, he's just referenced a few times, but Darth Wyyrlok the First (Krayt's second in command) is in both of them.
  13. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    There's a [different] One Sith agent featured in each book though.
  14. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Don't patronize me. Learn how to freaking respect differing opinions DUDE.

    Jaina comes to Luke with concerns about how Jacen is acting, and no one barges in to say to Jacen: 'What the hell are you doing.' Luke and Mara talk ABOUT Jacen, when the do talk to Jacen they talk AROUND what they believe the problem to be.

    I don't blame Luke for Jacen turning into a Sith, I blame the lot of of them for all seeing signs and waiting until it was too late to do anything about it.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    (my emphasis)

    2 Qs then:

    If Sinny's summary above is accurate, both in terms of action took and the overall timeframe - (and I've no reason to think it isn't) - what does this actually entail? What more should have been done?

    If it's a question of due process, of not only seeing there's a problem, but having evidence that can't be dismissed, is that really achieveable in less than 4 months when the target of said investigation is deemed a hero, likely enjoying media and political protection?
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Jacen Solo, in retrospect, was a poor choice for Sith Lord. No book could come up with an authentic reason for him to fall and he managed to become a threat primarily because people just kept handing him power despite a complete lack of political savvy.
  17. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    I think I see where yor are coming from: Luke needs to have proof of misconduct before he can approach Jacen. This is where we disagree, and I've posted something similar over on the 'Jacen' board in the other section. Luke (and others) are under the assumption that everything is fine until it is not. People don't really work that way; there is usually a long trail of indicators.

    I am in the military, and we have had a large number of troops commit suicide over the last few years. In response, we now have training about what to look for in our co-workers, friends, and family when they are becoming suicidal. Why do I bring this up? If we see a noticeable change in behavior in one of our friends, if we start to be concerned about our friends well-being, if we start to worry about their actions, then it is our DUTY to step in. With many suicides, there are people who saw what was happening and say later: 'Well I didn't think he would..." or "I assumed she'd get better..." There are ALWAYS signs.

    Jacen starts acting OOC in Betrayal, and it worries Jaina, it worries her so much that she tells Luke not to trust him with Ben. Luke observes Jacen and is concerned enough about him to talk to Mara about their nephew. Tenel Ka notices that Jacen is distracted, but says nothing. Mara talks to Jacen, but talks AROUND what is bothering her; Luke and Mara talk to Jacen, but talk AROUND what their concerns are.

    We are taught that if WE are worried about an individual, DO NOT leave that person; DO NOT accept vague answers; DO NOT beat around the bush. Jacen Solo committed suicide by 'Sith', and everyone sat and watched. They turned into the same friends I mentioned above: 'I didn't think that he would...'

    Am I letting my background color my perception? Yes. Is everyone else? Yes. Yourself and others think that Luke, Jaina, Tenel Ka, needed 'proof' before they could say something, that they needed to act like a prosecuting attorney. I argue that for a group of people that are taught to go by 'feel', they ignored their gut instincts until it was too late.

    Anytime there is a suicide in the military, it is a failure of us all. I would argue the same thing for the Jedi: anytime someone turns 'Sith', it is a failure of them all. Anakin Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Tahiri Veila, Alema Rar, Kyp Durron, all of these falls are the failure of the Jedi.

    I get that their was a limited time-frame, (one of my biggest gripes with FotJ) but there was still time to act. After Mara turned down the GAG job, perhaps Luke should have put on his 'GrandMaster' hat and said that NO Jedi was going to head that organization. Was he opposed to the Jedi acting as the head of a police organization, or just his wife?
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Mara does actually mention "not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the moment he showed Dark Side tendencies of his own" in Vision of the Future as among the mistakes Luke should blame himself for.
  19. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    It was Tahiri, Lowie, and who else who said Jacen had gone fruit-loops and got sent to Dagobah for that?
  20. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    I've got to be honest, I cannot remember the whole reason behind Tahiri and Lowie going to Dagobah. Didn't they get in contact with Raynar Thul's parents?
    This comes up over on SOS, and many believe Mara to be out of line in her 'critique'. Personally, I think that she was voicing a legitimate concern.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  21. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    A lot of her suggestions were kind of stupid as well, especially since moving the students would have prevented them from defeating Exar Kun with the Care Bear stare.
  22. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Tesar.

    But Luke spoke to Jacen about that and convinced Mara (at very least), that it was alright. Luke didn't trust Jacen from that point onwards.

    Personally... I am of the opinion Jacen fell off-screen. But we didn't realise it until Betrayal. It works best, and stops us criticising Luke to the point of death. Caedus came back from the sojourn.

    They did discuss in Bloodlines about arresting Jacen, but for what? He hadn't done anything directly wrong. In-fact, a lot of us where rooting for him to some degree. He was looking to eliminate special treatment of family from the GA, he was looking to slap down on corruption, he was looking to genuinely tackle the roots of the issue rather than the game of reactions that Omas was playing, which was playing into Sal-Solo's hands. Corellia was rearming. It was resurrecting a superweapon. It was singing about independence and using politics to forge a secession movement that would have led to war.

    We couldn't root for Corellia.

    Chaos or Totalitarianism.

    The Jedi Council were picking the latter right until Omas died.

    You cannot criticise Luke for Jacen unless you look at the context. The context is half the reason Lumiya completed the transformation to Darth Caedus.

    EDIT: Tesar and co were shipped to Dagobah for leaking Luke's plans to engage the Colony, which at the time may have included killing Raynar.
    Last edited by Sinrebirth, Oct 29, 2012
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    OS,

    Thanks for the post, it's quite rare for someone to offer such a substantive answer in these sort of discussions. It'd be accurate then if I was to term your alternative solution as being akin to that used on psychiatric patients or people exhibiting signs of major disorder, to the extent that they are a danger to their self and others? And, within a SW setting, a Jedi exhibiting indications of forms of mental illness, at this point, the dark side's role is entirely incidental, should be deemed similar? With intervention at the right moment, even if the patient protests there is nothing wrong?

    Of course, one major difference between the two is the power a Force-user can draw upon. I suppose there are ysalamiri, but is that the only way to hold someone? Would, in Jacen's case, that be sufficient or might supporters of his bust him out? Would an intervention have legitimacy to Jacen's supporters or would they wish to deny that he's going off the rails? For it to work, there needs to be a secure way of holding a Jedi without harming them, which is a tough one.

    I think it's fair to say that SW, as a story, has rarely adopted a psychological or psychiatric outlook to matters like the Jedi, Sith and the dark side - despite it likely offering quite a few story avenues. I ought to add, now you've laid it out and squared the circle so to speak, it does seem quite obvious! But sometimes in discussions like this, what's obvious to you isn't to everyone else. Hmm, I'm now wondering if there's a thread here, looking at SW and the EU from a mental health perspective? What do people think?
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Oct 29, 2012
  24. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Ben, Sinre:
    I do agree that Luke had little to no trust in Jacen after TJK. Once Luke had lost faith in his nephew, it seemed that he was always looking for ulterior motives, even when there wasn't one. Unfortunately, this manifested itself across the entire Order. I also agree that up until he fired on the Falcon, Jacen was doing what was needed for the Alliance. I further agree that there was no grounds for his arrest in Betrayal. (As an aside, do the Jedi even have legal authority to arrest anyone?) But there were other options besides outright arrest. Luke and Omas had a reasonable relationship, why not tell Omas to fire him? Tell him that Mara re-evaluated her stance and would take over as head of the GAG? Tell Omas that Jacen's talents were needed as an ambassador? Try something? Luke is one of the most powerful men in the the Alliance, (politically, I mean) Omas would have had to listen. Take away the GAG, and Jacen just becomes another Jedi.

    The 'intervention' description is pretty apt. Drug users rarely admit to being hooked, people with suicidal tendencies rarely admit to wishing to hurt themselves, Jedi turning Sith rarely admit to doing so.

    I agree that context is key. Half of the reason that Lumiya could do what she did is that Jacen felt isolated, that no one trusted him; that his own family had given up on him. He found others who did.

    There was a discussion (either here or on the temp boards) about Anakin Skywalker's talk with Yoda. Basically the gist of the discussion was that 'Anakin needed to suck it up'. I disagree, the Jedi needed (and still need) some sort of avenue to discuss mental well-being.
  25. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Where was it ever pointed out Jacen felt isolated due to not having the trust of his family? From what I remember, it was more him being unsatisfied with his overall life and that's what Lumiya used to manipulate him.

    And those alternatives you came up with aren't really viable, as in they either don't make sense or simply wouldn't work. And i'm not really sure Jacen would have just been "another Jedi" had they worked, as he'd already joined the Sith Order at that point.