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PT Did anakin believe the Jedi were planning to take over the republic?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2012
    Anakin told obi wan, "I should have known the jedi were plotting to take over"! And the emperor told him earlier on, "I was right. The Jedi are taking over!" Was that mentioned earlier on in the films? Are there any signs that skywalker believed the jedi would take over the republic, and did that contribute to his fall to the darkside?
     
  2. JimRaynor55

    JimRaynor55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2005
    It's all over the first half of ROTS. During the opera scene, Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi aren't that different from the Sith, and that those who have power are afraid to lose it. Later on, Anakin is deeply disturbed when the Jedi ask him to spy on the Chancellor, who was not only their boss but someone whom Anakin considered to be a friend and mentor.
     
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  3. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    I think Anakin persuaded himself of this. He needed justification for his deeds, that he was indeed doing the right thing for Padme, so he accepted Sid's words as gospel. Keep in mind that the way Sids twist words and actual actions, he could plausibiy spin this tale and gullible Anakin could buy it, but it was never true.

    The closest they came was Mace's (one Jedi!) saying they would have to take temporary control of the Senate. Yoda was not all "all right, chance this is for us, wahoo."
     
  4. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I doubt it. We get it in AOTC that he doesn't care two licks about the Republic, and might actually favor a Jedi-led takeover-he's pretty much describing the same sort of hierarchy the Jedi have with Yoda, after all. He might pretend to go along with Sidious' fiction, but I doubt he really cares.
     
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  5. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Well, they weren't planning... They tried.

    And lost.
     
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  6. JimRaynor55

    JimRaynor55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2005
    Anakin has a Messiah complex. He wanted to save and protect people as only he sees fit, and he desperately needed to be in control of things. I don't think his thought process about the Jedi's intentions was that clear cut. It was a combination of hypocrisy, legitimate suspicion of the Jedi's intentions, the influence of the Dark Side, as well as delusional self justifications rooted in his desire to save Padme.

    He really doesn't care about democracy, which he sees as corrupt and inefficient. Nor does he really believe or care about Palpatine, after his fall to the Dark Side. At the end of the movie, just before the Mustafar duel, he tells Padme that he intends to destroy Palpatine and take control of the Empire for himself. This desire continues into TESB when he tempted Luke on Bespin. It ties into Dooku's temptation of Obi-Wan in AOTC, as well Palpatne's implied betrayal of his master. The Sith are in the thrall of the Dark Side, which warps their minds and plays on their worst desires for power.
     
  7. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    I think it was very easy for Anakin to convince himself that the Jedi were trying to take over because that's what he'd always wanted to do (presumably to deal with corruption).
     
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  8. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    The ironic thing is that the Jedi Council were seriously contemplating in taking over the Senate in ROTS:


     
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  9. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    The bold part is significant, I think.

    Mundi's final line isn't in the movie, btw.

    To answer this thread's question:

    Of course not.
     
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  10. Felicia

    Felicia Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 3, 2012
    Anakin wanted to justify his actions in whatever way he could. I was a bit disappointed in the Jedi Councils lack of action. As Mace states that the Jedi Council "may have to take control of the Republic to ensure a smooth transition." Yoda says this will take us to a dangerous place. Anakin did not have that information so he was looking for a justification for killing the Younglings and all of the other Jedi in the temple during Operation Knightfall.
     
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  11. MandoBones

    MandoBones Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 2, 2012
    I think that Anakin was forced to shoulder a lot of responsibility at a very young age, and then spent the rest of his life fighting in a war that began when he was just a kid (with a mid way team switch, that flip-flopper). He was told that he was destined to bring balance to the Force, and that he was dangerous, and all manner of other things, and then told to ignore his emotions. He fell in love, and was condemned (by the tenants of the Jedi and his own self loathing) for it. It was only a matter of time before he rebelled against the only authority that sought to reign him in, the Jedi.

    This is, of course, my own interpretation of events.
     
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  12. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    "Condemned" - he may have thought he would be condemmed, but who knows? Maybe the Jedi would have allowed their Chosen One to leave the Order after the Sith's destruction and be with Padme, maybe not. Maybe they would have swallowed their disappointment.

    Certainly, even amongst fans, there is a lot of disagreement about the Jedi's "prohibition on love" and exactly what that means.
     
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  13. Force.Child

    Force.Child Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 7, 2012
    Its hard to say... I think anyone can be brainwashed over a certain amount of time... Given the right motives and planting the right seeds. I've heard about people being brainwashed. And I believe Anakin had a weak mind and therefore made it easy.
     
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  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't think he really thought they were. I also don't think he cared. Palpatine could have told him that Mace Windu was demanding that all Jedi younglings be required to watch Gungan pornography, and Anakin would have bought it, if buying it meant that he might subsequently have the power to save Padme.

    He may have justified the thought process to himself but deep inside, he knew Palpatine was making **** up.
     
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  15. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    What final line are you talking about?
     
  16. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 5, 2011
    The line you quoted, "and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption."

    That's not in the movie.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Too bad it isn't, because the idea itself is hilarious.
     
  18. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    Well, there's Amidala, and Bail Organa with Mon Mothma. And ETs ;) Maybe 1% of the Senate that can be considered decent :(
     
  19. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Yes, Anakin believed it
     
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    How about the Delegation of 2000? 2000 senators that wanted to repeal some of the more repressive security laws, led by Bail, Amidala & Mon Mothma?
     
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  21. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    Short and to the point, I suppose. But what makes you think this. Personally I don't think he does at all. The first time he starts to talk this way is just after he has pledged himself to Sidious' teachings....which followed on from him just having participated in the murder of Mace Windu. He knows why Mace Windu was going to kill Sidious (and it wasn't an attempted assassination of Palpatine as he described it to Padmé - well, I suppose technically it could be seen as such, but he sort of forgets to mention that Palpatine is the Sith Lord behind the whole war). Yet immediately after that he says that he agrees, that the Jedi will try to kill them and then the Senators. He knows that is.... well, not true.

    I think, as Valairy Scot has said, he is attempting to justify his own actions as best as he can. I mean, when he says this to Obi-Wan we should remember that he has just been describing to Padmé how they can rule the galaxy and make it how they want it; and then spoke of his new empire.... he didn't care less about the Republic, the Senate, or anybody else for that matter, Just Anakin and all the power he could have.
     
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  22. Cosmo Viking

    Cosmo Viking Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Some them were probably just afraid that they will lose their little thiefdoms.
     
  23. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2010
    who knows what Anakin was thinking at that point,

    honestly ROTS is so badly written from my point of view I often wonder if Lucas had just had enough at that point and just threw random stuff in there.


    As you can tell i'm not a fan of ROTS :p

    I like the others just fine though
     
  24. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    I don't think Anakin truly believed the Jedi were trying to take control of the Republic. I think he was trying to justify what he did even more. He was in it for power and to save Padme from dying. Plus, Palpatine twisted Anakin's mind to think that the Jedi were against him.
     
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  25. mute90

    mute90 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 18, 2012
    I think a general lack of faith in the Jedi and the Republic was a factor in his fall. I don't think it was as specific as 'Jedi taking over the republic,' but he believed there was a breakdown in principles. So something like the Jedi staging a coup became a possibility he could accept.

    We see his declining faith throughout the prequels. In TPM, he admires the Jedi. He believes they can free slaves and not get killed. Throughout TPM, he learns better as they leave his mother behind and Qui-Gon dies. In AoTC, he moves on to challenging the mandates of the Jedi Council and rebelling against their restrictions. He feels disappointed in himself for not living up to the image of an ideal Jedi, but still finds fulfillment outside of it (Padme.) Marrying Padme was a major break between him and the Jedi Order, even if it's not fully realized until RotS. In RotS, he loses his remaining faith in what they fight for (even if he's already lost faith in how they fight for it.) This is why he brings up what the Jedi are supposed to stand for. He does this with Dooku, Padme, Palpatine, Obi-Wan, and Windu. They're falling very short of expectations, and that's what he needs to rationalize that they're all on the same level: everyone is seeking power. He's free to do the selfish thing because the little bit of idealism he held onto is gone.

    So when he tells Obi-Wan, "The Jedi were plotting to take over" and "The Jedi are evil," he doesn't say it from the POV that Palpatine's good or that the Sith are good. (He was just talking to Padme about killing off Palpatine.) Basically, it's 'you're all power-hungry jerks. I should have realized. The Jedi are evil. Palpatine is evil. Every major power in the universe sucks.'
     
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