PT Did anakin believe the Jedi were planning to take over the republic?

Darth Sidious really had his mind twisted up.

 

Anakin says earlier in the movie: I feel lost. It is simple but significant line. As mute90 pointed out, Anakin is totally disappointed of the Jedi Order and who can blame him when he was forced to spy the Chancellor, a man that he thinks is one of his mentors. It is totally against the Jedi Code and the Republic rules and everything (even Obi Wan feels guilty when explains him the situation and that means a lot). He also is convinced that they don't trust him (he said that to Padme); they treat him as a dangerous object (as it was in the beginning of his training and now he is already a Jedi knight).The problem with his participation in the Council was crucial to his disappointment. He said that it is outrageous and he was right, because I think in this case he would prefer not to be in the Council instead of this stupid position. And it resulted that they accepted him only to spy the Chancellor. So, in the end, Palpatine looks to be right: the Jedi are like the Sith, they do what is convenient to them, no matter what is wrong and what is right. Anakin was to loyal to the Jedi Code, his friend and mentor Obi Wan and after all he was a good hearted person. That's why when Palpatine revealed himself he didn’t become a Sith immediately (and with this degree of disappointment many would do it). But when he made his wrong choice he was not part of the Jedi Order anymore and he free to focus in the Jedi flaws if I can say so. So that's why he said to Obi that from his point of view the Jedi are evil. And making this wrong choice he began to see the world in some knd of distorting mirror as Kai in Andersen Snow Queen: obsessed with the Dark Side, Anakin was ready to believe that the Jedi are ready to do everything to keep their power, even make a plot ( no matter that deep in his hearth he knows that he is lying himself).

 

I think he believed it. You could probably even argue he was correct, though greatly misjudged their motives. IF Palpatine had actually gone down, the Jedi would be forced to take a more direct hand in events, and they knew it. BUT where Palpatine desired personal power (and so did Anakin) the Jedi were always INTENDING that power would be handed back... eventually. Of course, we all know the saying about good intentions and the path they pave...

 

The Jedi were trying to (temporarily) take over.

 

Precisely, and I think that coupled with Anakin's loyalty to Palpatine, he saw the Jedi's removal of the Chancellor as a political coup where the Jedi were trying to usurp the Republic.

 

THIS. This is exactly it. Between the lies that Sidious was planting to warp his mind to believe that the other Jedi didn't trust him to encountering Mace Windu about to kill what he'd come to believe as Padmé's final lifeline, he'd had enough and just allowed himself to believe that to give him justification to do what he could to save Padmé.

 

I believe he had doubts about there motives, however when he initially turned I don't believe he really believed they really were going to overthrow the Republic.

I think "The final straw" so to speak before his turn can be summed up with only one of his lines.

"What have I done?"

He just assisted in the murder of a high councilor, and his doubt and lack of trust in the Jedi Council made him think he would likely be punished for doing so. He was frightened and saw no other way out, in his mind I was already too late to go back. This combined with his hope to save Padme and faith in Palpatine made him choose the Dark Side. And he just agreed with Palpys claim the Jedi were taking over the Republic because he is now his master and he can't really disagree with him without some very dangerous risks.

Now later on the Dark side royally screwed with his mind. I have said in other threads that I think being on the Dark side is like being on some pretty hard drugs, it clouds your rational and reason. hence why he committed such atrocities in the temple, killing everyone even the younglings without mercy.

By the time he got to Mustafar I think it baked his brain so hard he actually believed the **** he was spouting, that "The Jedi are evil" and was blind to his actions.

 

He wanted to believe the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic for themselves to justify his actions.

 

I think Anakin "believes" it in as much as it's one of the various factors he's convincing himself to do the horrible things he's doing.

The thing is, both him and Palpatine are actually right. The Jedi are plotting to take over and flat-out attempt a coup to overthrow the elected Chancellor of the Republic. Now, just the fact that the Chancellor is actually a freakin' evil Sith Lord is a bit of a hiccup but the actions of the Jedi are that of trying to remove the Chancellor from power.

 

His main motivation is saving Padme, and once he's helped Palpatine kill Mace, there's no going back - he can't turn against Palpatine without (he thinks) condemning Padme to death, and he knows after that that the Jedi will try to kill Palpatine. So in his mind, that makes the Jedi a threat to Padme.

His doubts about the Jedi Council's intentions give him the rationalisation he needs to justify his actions, and Mace really doesn't help things by trying to execute the leader of the Republic instead of - as Anakin suggests - putting him on trial. But partly I think he is just lying to himself, trying to convince himself that what Palpatine says is true. He also justifies it all by thinking "well, at least with the Jedi gone there won't be a civil war, and I'll be able to make the galaxy a better place." The ends justify the means.

By the time they're on Mustafar, he's completed twisted by the dark side and his own power, and anyone who stands in the way of his vision of the galaxy is "evil".

 

I do believe that Anakin believed the Jedi wanted control of the Republic, and the ironic thing is they actually did. Palpatine is a genius because he never outright lies. Everything he says is actually the truth, but its presented in a way to deceive. What Anakin did not see is that the Jedi's intentions were to save and preserve democracy as oppose to Palpatine who actually wanted to transform it into a dictatorship. In the opera scene, when Palpatine says "All those who gain power are afraid to lose it," Anakin should have realized that it was Palpatine, not the Jedi, who currently held the most power in the galaxy and he was actually the one to fear.

 

I'd just add that while the Jedi's intentions were indeed to save and preserve democracy, it's questionable whether such a thing could ever truly be achieved after seizing control of the Senate in a coup, even if only temporarily. The new democratic order set up under the temporary executive leadership of the Jedi would always have an air of illegitimacy about it from the point of view of certain factions.

 

I don't think so. I think he wanted to believe it to justify his actions. Obi-Wan says as much: You've allowed him to twist your mind until you've become the very thing you've sworn to destroy. Not to say that he doesn't distrust the jedi and even think they're out for their own selfish ends, but that they're trying to take over the galaxy? I don't think he actually believes that. More than anything I'd say he used the jedi's now diminished morals to justify his. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

Anakin ultimately stood with the Jedi. He wanted a fair trial to proceed and justice to reign. Fate had other plans and put him in a position where all he could see was Padme dead or alive. There was no choice, especially when he is taking the arm of a man who is betraying everything he claims to stand for. Anakin doesn't kill Windu. He takes his arm. It must have been somewhat shocking (har har) to see Palpatine explode with energy afterwards. "What have I done?" I think right at that moment he realized the magnitude of his action, the evil of it. But it's too late. "Once you start down the dark path..." Anakin was consumed. Only Darth Vader remained.

 

I think once Anakin fell to the Dark Side, he felt the need to justify himself, and so embraced the view that the Jedi were traitors. Did he REALLY think that? I don't know. But it is pretty classic behavior. People generally look to justify themselves. As Adam Driver (and a lot of other people) said, almost no one thinks of themselves as the bad guy. Almost everyone manages to construct an internal monologue to justify their position. I think Anakin is no different. He needed to justify his embrace of the Sith.

 

Well, taking power followed by purging the Senate of opposition and replacing them with more pliant members is the very definition of a coup.

To answer this thread's question:

Yes, indeed they were.

 

In that moment Anakin was in a blind rage, lashing out at everyone for the loss of his mother and the resentment he felt about being held back and not given the respect he deserved. I don't think rational thought was involved.

 

Anakin is smart. He knows what's happening and has chosen sides.

He also still knows right from wrong. His remarks to Obi-Wan on Mustafar are him trying to justify the terrible things he's done. He's self-validating and self-deceiving.

 

Anakin I was right! The Jedi are taking over!

I am going to end this once and for all!

He has control of the Senate and the Courts! He's too dangerous to be left alive!

The Jedi Council would have to take over the Republic to ensure a peaceful transition.

"In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, the Jedi Council hereby assumes control of the Galactic Republic for the foreseeable future. Citizens are asked to remain calm and continue with their daily lives as per normal. The Jedi Council will protect you as we have always done. With the powers vested with us, the Grand Army, under our enlightened leadership shall maintain peace and order. We will remove the corrupt and rid the galaxy of the evils and mistakes of the past. Once more there shall be order, peace and serenity. The Republic will be reorganised into the Galactic Alliance of Planets. Let the planets of the Confederacy, duped by the Sith and the corrupt join us in a free and just society. Let the corrupt be swept from the Senate and Balance be restored to our glorious galaxy. In the name of the living Force, justice shall prevail. May the Force be with you all. For a safe, and secure...society!"
- The first Jedi Day speech on the eve of the Death of Chancellor Palpatine, the last Chancellor of the Old Republic, and the Arrest of thousands of Senators.

I believe that the Jedi were going to take over, but for the right reasons. I don't think Anakin necessarily was privy to this information, which was obviously twisted by Palpatine. Anakin also was duped into believing what was necessary and also rationalising his own actions to act against the people he had just betrayed to save Palpatine (who he believed was the only one who could help him). In a certain sense though, Anakin happened upon the arrest at the wrong moment. Windu had just disarmed Palpatine (who had just killed three of his would be arrestors), and for the second time told him he was under arrest. Palpatine manipulated the situation brilliantly. In a sad way, Anakin did indeed see the Jedi Master attempting to overthrow the Chancellor, the Republic, and not permit him to stand trial. Obviously Palpatine was evil, but from a certain point of view. It was a great scene. I don't think he necessarily believed it at first, but it became the mantra of the day. This was the reason for their "purge" against the Jedi Rebellion.

As Padme said, liberty died with thunderous applause when Palpatine conveyed the defeat of this Jedi Rebellion in the Senate. The Jedi were branded quite literally as Enemies of the Republic. The Jedi junta never materialised.

 

He was manipulated the entire time by Palpatine.

 

Persuasion can be more powerful than the truth.

Anakin was told what he wanted to hear from Palpatine. The Jedi and Yoda gave him tough love when he was struggling mentally. Anakin listened to the nice Uncle. The Jedi had good reason to be suspicious of Palpatine, but this ended up working against them.

Anakin was told by the Jedi to spy on the Chancellor.
Anakin wasn’t fully trusted by the Jedi and was denied the rank of Master.
And lastly, Anakin walked in on Mace Windu standing over a ‘weak’ Palpatine.

There wasn’t solid proof of anything, but these incidents added up to give the possibility the Jedi weren’t to be trusted and needed to be dealt with.

Anakin wasn’t going to allow another loved one to die from inaction. That’s the root of everything here, and why he explores the Dark Side in the first place. He was willing to become more than a Jedi to ‘save’ Padme. The above instances were enough to justify a selfish action on his part.

By the time Anakin has killed a morgue full of Jedi, he has devoted himself to a dark path he doesn’t see himself turning away from. He’s gone too far. And his mind is poisoned to think in such a twisted way, as well. He’s ready to kill Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself. That desire never really goes away - it just remains dormant. Until Luke wakes him up.

 

This is pretty much my opinion. Thanks for reading my mind, @DarkMark

 

Anakin's relationship with the Jedi was testy to say the least. I think he's seen them do enough shady things that he could accept this as well. And he had to anyway cuz Sidious kept telling him it.

 

I think he was just lying to himself to ease his pangs of guilt. He was crying after killing the separatists on Mustafar; he knew what he was doing.

 

This is him before killing the younglings. He seems horrified at what he has to do.
And this one after killing the separatists, clearly in agony.
If he actually believed what he was saying, then these facial expressions make no sense.

As a side note, I also want to point out that he stood there for a long time. This crying scene above took place just before Padme left Coruscant to go to Mustafar; he's already done the killings at this point. Later just after communicating with Sidious through the hologram, he immediately sees Padme's ship arrive. So the whole time that Padme is flying to Mustafar, he's not doing anything productive. That was probably a few hours, given how long it took him to fly to Mustafar (it was nighttime in Coruscant when he left, and daytime in Coruscant in the scene just before he arrives in Mustafar). Likely, he was under so much distress that it took him a few hours to pull himself together before he could report on his mission to Sidious.