Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Cyn, Jul 15, 2014.
I'm sure he had at least some friends as he was growing up in the Jedi Order.
Are friendships considered attachments?
Depends on the degree. "Risk the lives of strangers for a friend's sake" probably qualifies as Attached - Obi-Wan brings this up in the RoTS novel:
"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met - loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he - he will never, I think, truly understand."
He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."
Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders - the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems - to save a friend.
More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.
"I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."
Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
"Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."
Excellent summary of the concept of attachment.
He was popular, that's for sure, but I think the Jedi themselves were too rigid to consider him a friend beyond a fellow Jedi. I think that goes for everyone in the order. Mace and Yoda are usually seen together, but you don't really get the impression that they're buddies or anything. Obi-Wan and Anakin were a rare thing where they both were truly friends.
The Jedi denial of emotions makes friendship pretty impossible to maintain . I don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship even depicts friendship.
So, jedi couldn't even have true friends (the kind they wouldn't kill even if they were ordered to)? That sucks, they practically sound like clones, in that case.
Anakin liked Obi Wan, mentions he was also the closest thing he had to a father, while Obi Wan's feelings towards Anakin were conflicted. I think Anakin simply picked up all the negative vibes and impressions he got from Kenobi and the rest of the Jedi towards. There was some hints of rivalry between Keobi and Anakin throughout AOTC and ROTS and possibly earlier a jealous between Jinn's liking the boy and eagerness for a new apprentice and this replacing Obi-Wan. Kenobi was also arrogant since he believed Anakin was too old to be a Jedi padawan but at the same Kenobi neglected the fact he may of been to young to be a Jedi Master. I think the novelization of the movies are very imporant and offer a lot more insight.
I think Lucas tried to portray that Anakin was alienated by the Jedi, which in turn fueled his resentment which manifested itself into hatred whenever he binged into the darkside. I do not get the overall impression that the Jedi liked Anakin, likely cause he could have been the chosen one, which was something the Jedi may not of liked, and it was a reality they did not like cause they were not in control and it was a sign that the Sith have returned which was something they were also unwilling to accept. The Jedi are all very sure of themselves and arrogant and great any news not in line with their collective thought with suspicion and fear(which are not traits the Jedi should have). One of their biggest flaws is their great arrogance and hubris. Anakin was more forced into their institution for inclusion by Qui Gon Jinn and his death they honored him by accepting Anakin - possibly likely cause he died fighting against a Sith Lord. Jinn in TPM was something of a troublemaker to the council. I think Lucas tried making Anakin his version of Jesus Christ complete with Caiaphas and the whole trial by Priests who find him a blasphemy, a rival and threatening that he was the Messiah and Savior. Caiaphas who takes forms in Windu and Obi Wan and Yoda. Lucas' Christ-like character though gives into temptations of the Devil(who takes the form of Palpatine) unlike the real Jesus Christ. Luke and Anakin are sorta like the twin sons of tatooine but Luke doesnt give into temptation by either Vader or Jedi( Obi Wan or Yoda) to kill his father. He instead throws away his lightsaber twice, once when he surrendered it to the Imperials on Endor and again his willingness to become one with the Force before he strikes down his own father , or even take a life of an enemy or becomes a slave to the Emperor.
Obi-Wan seems to think so:
"He was the finest star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. And he was a good friend."
I think he is downplaying the nature of his relationship.
I'm saying I don't feel we ever see what Ben indicated.
Agreed. I think we need to define the term "friend" in the context of Jedi's.
This is absurd. The Jedi definition for friend is the same as everyone else's.
Obi-Wan and Anakin were definitely friends, regardless of how you feel it came across.
I think there is a definitely a preference for Jedi's to be acquatainces as opposed to "friends" who have attachments between them.
That's what thing TCW did right. Showed their friendship.
And striving for a level of emotional self-control that people in real life could strive for but don't, is not the same as "emotional denial."
Not letting personal relationships define their lives--the way we often do in the US, not speaking for other parts of the world--does not mean the Jedi did not have personal relationships.
"Friendship" does not mean "attachment,", or an inability to let go.
For some, not me.
AFS1983 beat me to it, "friend" and "attachment" are not mutually inclusive. One doesn't really have much to do with the other.
Attachment is the inability to let go of desires.
A friendship is just a relationship. One need not be attached to be friends....but Obi-Wan and Anakin were certainly attached to each other, they worried about each other.
Regardless, it's absurd to suggest Anakin and Obi-Wan were merely acquaintances.
Someone made the statement in the Senate Floor the other day that 'humans are ruled by their emotions'. A lot of people probably are but I don't understand the viewpoint that that's a good thing and that the emotional self-control that the Jedi strive for is somehow bad.
That statement totally unrelated to the movies shed light on why the Jedi get so much crap though.
On topic though--even with the minimal amount of focus the Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship got in the prequels, I got enough indication that they were friends. The speeder chase and Outlander Club scenes, the scene after Anakin has his dream, the entire opening of ROTS. TCW had even more.
It's all in perception.
My uneducated guess is that comes out of the huge influence that Romanticism had and continues to have on "Western" thought --- the idea that emotions, as opposed to abstract principles, are what make one genuinely human. Emotions are biological phenomena. They're not inherently privileged over ideals when it comes to defining ourselves.
Yeah, Obi-Wan gets flak for being a jerk, but Ewan actually slips in a lot of overprotective/cantankerous/long-suffering-type tenderness in AotC, under the crankiness and nagging
For me, the friendship was there. Bearing in mind that the main character conflict that drives the prequels' narrative is that between Obi-Wan and Anakin, and therefore the movies inevitably show the more tense moments and darker sides in their relationship, their mutual affection and warm regard was clear enough to me. It's elliptical, yes, but SW is always emotionally elliptical/compressed. I don't want the mushiness trowelled on.
Emotions are biological, we all have them, but how often do humans get in trouble by allowing their emotions to control or define them? I'd say most of the time humans get in trouble, that is the cause.
I don't disagree with you, I'd just say it's a flaw in Western thought.
I'm not sure if you misunderstood me, cos I was agreeing with you...my point was that since they're only biological, they shouldn't be considered the essence of genuine personhood...therefore, the Jedi shouldn't be criticised for attempting to minimise their influence, as though that somehow made them cold/robotic/inhuman. Apologies for being unclear!
No, I totally got it. I'm blaming the fact that I haven't finished my coffee for my unclear response.
Dex comes across as more "friend" than "acquaintance" in AoTC.
I think he will of had some
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