Did Anakin have sufficient evidence to really believe the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic

There is one thing in ROTS that has nagged me ever since the film came out and still ongoing with me in regards to Anakin accepting and believing the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic.

I am fully persuaded as to why Anakin turned to the dark side, but I just cannot fully accept him believing the Jedi were trying to overthrow Palpatine. I really cringe when Anakin brings this up near the climax of his battle with Obi-Wan. It is if he is telling Obi-Wan that one of the reasons I turned from the Jedi is I see where they wanted to take over.

Now don't get me wrong, I know that Palpatine pulled a major mind job on Anakin, but for me not enough for him to believe this about the Jedi. His speeches about the dark side as it related to Anakin's desires to gain power to save power made full sense he would fall for what he had to say. But how Anakin believes that load of garbage about the Jedi wanting to take over doe snot jive with me in relation to his turn.

Anakin had been around the Jedi order long enough and learned surely this was not something they sought. And also he surely had to have learned the extent of Palpatine's emergency powers and why the Jedi Council had to consider stripping him of those powers under the circumstances when it was not necessary any longer for him to retain them and for the Jedi Council to assume control until an interim or new chancellor was selected.

Lastly, in saying this again I have always had an issue with Anakin believing the Jedi wanted to take over the Republic.

Darth Sin!

 

Welllll...

I look at what was said in Dark Lord. Anakin didn't believe that crap. Especially if he was already plotting to overthrow Palps himself. He went along with the Emperor for his own reasons.

That line in the movie where he states that he believes it, makes him look weak minded to me. Out of character since he was just espousing the goodness & nobleness of the Jedi in the opera scene. No, too fast a change.

 

I've always seen Anakin as paranoid and borderline schizophrenic, so it was always believable to me.

 

The above posts are true -- from a certain point of view.

But remember that Anakin was asked by the Jedi to spy on Palpatine and report back to them on what he learns. So right there he suspects the 'unnatural' motives of his parent order, which as far as he's been told does not engage in such nefarious and subversive activity. This all happened after Anakin was 'put in his place' by Windu, not being granted the title of 'master' and then told to 'shut up and sit down.' So for the 2nd time the council essentially 'rejected' him.

Next, Palpatine's little te-ta-te at the Opera, where he played all of Anakin's fears to perfection, giving him justification for 2nd guessing Jedi intentions.

Then, Mace's telling Anakin that "if what you have told me is true, you will have earned my trust" [paraphrased] when Anakin informs him that Palpatine is a Sith.

Finally, Windu deciding to single-handedly take galactic justice into his own hands and terminate the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic that the Jedi are sworn to serve -- and this after Mace initially told Anakin he was going to only arrest the Sith Lord. Anakin expects a democratic trial by the Senate, not an execution by a lone member of the Jedi Council.

Add them up in Anakin's troubled mind and he has all of the proof that he needs to make his life-changing judgement.

 

Anakin's plea to Mace sums up the above quote "I need him!" He didn't care whether Palpatine lived or died..as long as he had the secret to cheat death...for himself. His love for Padmé was a possessive, selfish love. She was his trophy. His prize, his possession. What Yoda should have done was council Anakin on the fact that the future is always in motion. Not that he needs to learn to let go. That comes later. Calm the man down first, then preach to him. As for sufficent evidence? From a certain point of view, yes. From another point of view? Uhm..well..no. Not really..no.

 

Anakin taking evidence into account? No.

In the novelisation it was a lot more realistic, but in the movie he simply loses it.

On Mustafar Hayden is trying to act delusional, because Anakin is supposed to be delusional at this point.

 

Well, a couple of things. Anakin did see Mace ready to kill Palpatine in the Chancellor's office. Mace made it clear that Palpatine wasn't going to get a trial and that he needed to be killed. Mace was attempting to assassinate the Chancellor. Plus, the Jedi actually were plotting to take over. Mace and co. went to remove the Chancellor, and it was made clear in the film that they would rule the Republic until new elections. Palpatine just twisted it a little bit and made it sound as if the Jedi were plotting to take over forever. Anakin's comment, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" is just a response to Obiwan's "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!" Essentially, Anakin's accepted Palpatine's simplistic blurring of good and evil between Jedi and Sith in order to save his wife and rule the galaxy for himself.

 

When he said, "From my point of view..." it sounded like he was just parroting Palpatine to me. It was not convincing.

 

Hey, I answered the thread's rather leading question and merely said "Anakin has all the proof that he needed!" I wasn't talking about the SW fandom.

Lucas did an OK job of leading Anakin down the path to the dark side. I think if Lucas had left in the 'spicey stuff,' such as where Palpatine plays the inuendo card regarding rumors of an Obi-Wan/Padme relationship, then Anakin's HATE toward Kenobi on Mustafar as he spots him atop Padme's landing ramp would make more sense.

With what we were given, Lucas adequately makes the case, but not as solidly as he might have had he dedicated more screen time to telling Anakin's POV.

 

And I'm not sure that was accidental. I think Lucas wanted the audience to be able to see that Palpatine was manipulating the truth yet at the same time see why Anakin could be tricked by it.

 

Anakin acted on his fears, anger, and angst. He was not a good light side user because of his quick temper. The jedi should NOT have put him in the positions he was in, however.

 

It was odd that Yoda let Kenobi (or anyone else for that matter) train him.

He said that the council did not approve. Then, by magic, he says that the council does approve.

Odd little creature, that Yoda is.

 

You actually answered your own question. the Jedi Council had to consider stripping him of those powers

Thats NOT the job of the Jedi Council, its the Senates job. Anakin saw that the appointed Jedi Council was trying to usurp the powers of the democratically elected Senate.

Also, the fact that the Council asked Anakin to spy on the Chancellor unofficially, (not even recorded in the Jedi archives), would lead anyone to question the Councils real motives.

 

This bothers me, too. It's like, come ON, Anakin, you can't seriously believe the Jedi are suddenly the bad guys and are trying to take over the Republic! Not after he has seen first-hand the tremendous amount of good and selfless sacrifices the Jedi have made over the years he has been with them. Not to mention he now knows that Palpatine is the sith lord they have been looking for all this time, and that Palpatine has been lying to him all these years, and that Palpatine is responsible for the deaths of so many Jedi and other innocent people in this war that *he* caused, all the while trying to usurp power for himself and seize control of the Republic through lies and treachery.

It's just completely illogical that he could actually believe this stuff. And we see clear evidence that Anakin does recognize that Palpatine really is a back-stabbing low life, who's only been thinking of himself and trying to get control of the Republic all these years, when he tells Padme that he can overthrow Palpatine and place himself in charge, presumably to run a just and fairly administered government.

I think two factors are at work here. One is that the dark side, as it does to all who get drawn into it's filthy evil, begins to distort a man's mind, cloud his judgment and perceptions, twist his thinking so that it's difficult for him to see with the moral clarity he once had. Also, Anakin has done such horrible things by this point, things that he knows deep down are morally wrong, that he's trying desperately to think of some way to rationalize what he's done, find some justification for it, lest he should have to face the true horror of it. And so he weakly attempts to repeat some of false accusations made by Palpatine about the Jedi. On the grounds that this would somehow explain to Obi-Wan why he's doing what he's doing. When in reality there is no justification for any of it. But his choice is to either try to explain his actions somehow or face the awful truth of just how evil Palpatine is and what it is he's done since he started listening to Palpatine. And this would be just too terrible for Anakin to deal with spiritually and emotionally. And so instead he tries to deflect blame on the Jedi, even though in his heart he doesn't really believe it.

 

The Jedi tell Anakin to break their own code, tell him not help people in danger, tell him to let his loved ones die, commit treason, plot to take control of the Senate, try to assassinate the democratically elected Chancellor, inform him that he's one of the greatest and wisest Jedi ever, and they say to his face that they don't trust him.

He should have turned his back on them sooner.

 

Anakin doesn't quite fully believe at first, that this was what was going on. Hence he says, "What have I done?" as he was still torn between the Jedi and Palpatine. What happens to Anakin is that he starts to convince himself that this is what happened. It's the only way he can deal with what he has done and what he will do. Some of the Jedi's actions were questionable, which is why he was greatly confused and conflicted. The Jedi look hypocritical in his view, which thanks to Palpatine's machinations, it's easy for him to see. Worse, his emotions are playing a part in this. He wants to do good, but finds that it conflicts with his relationships. He full reason for turning isn't because he suspects that the Jedi are traitors. It's because Padme will die if Palpatine dies first. Everything else is a lie that he tells himself to ease his own guilty conscience.

 

Yup. Anakin had a sense of morality and he was just clutching at straws.

If you put Anakin on the spot and asked him to explain himself to the senate he would be clueless.

 

As Dunedain1 said here, it is just illogical for Anakin to accept that the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic. I know that the quick and easy answer is that the dark side has twisted his point of view and his ability to rationalize what is truly right. And I have no problem with this to some degree. But I do not think he needed to believe the Jedi were now evil and trying to take over the Republic to justify his actions. Trying to save Padme from death was the one and only reason he needed to turn to the dark side. He wanted the power to save her and by doing so he gave himself to become evil and twisted.

The belief that the Jedi were trying to take over was purely ridiculous in terms of the story. Anakin had been trained as Jedi for over 10 years and he knew their ways and policies. Anakin also was fully aware of the state of the galaxy with the corruption and then the Separatists movement. Anakin knew that the Senate was corrupt itself well before he learned the truth about Palpatine. The Jedi had never shown any marks of corruption til that time of the war. Anakin had to have been well versed in politics and procedures of the Republic to know that with the war ongoing, a corrupt and ineffective Senate and questionable acts and decisions by the Chancellor the Jedi had to do those things that were in the best interest of the Republic that they were sworn to guard and protect.

Then as was said, Anakin then learns that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Well from learning this truth, it should have validated why the Jedi Council had to do what they did to try and remove him. He was not just a bad Chancellor that made bad decisions, he was a Sith Lord dedicated to evil and destruction and total domination.

 

The thing is that the last few years, more so in the last few days, Palpatine has blured the lines between good and evil. Right and wrong. Black and white. He has presented situations where he makes the Jedi look as if they are no different from the Sith. He makes the Jedi look like they have no respect for the law and the Senate. He plays upon Anakin's personal feelings for him, knowing that it will work to his advantage. When Anakin says that Mace needs his help, it is because he doesn't want Palpatine to die. He wants him arrested, but he also wants him to save Padme. Anakin wants to do what's right by the law and what is right for him. He's trying to have it both ways and it is tearing him apart. That is why Palpatine forces him to choose. And when he has chosen, he has to quiet that nagging little voice called his conscience.

 

Yep, but the Jedi themselves helped his cause along immensely by asking Anakin to spy and Mace wanting to kill Palps instead of arrest him.

 

That's what I meant. He was able to manipulate the Jedi into spying on him.

 

The Jedi never call Anakin wise, only Obi-Wan. The rest I think is simply a misunderstanding of the Jedi Code.

 

Is Obi-Wan not a Jedi? The Jedi created their code. They don't misunderstand it.

 

Obi-Wan's a Jedi but he doesn't represent the Jedi Order especially when it concerns Anakin due to his friendship with him. As for the Code part I may have misunderstood what you were saying. My point is treason, letting loved ones go, assassinating Palpatine, etc. aren't a violation of the Jedi Code. Whether they're wrong is completely debatable but I've never seen evidence that they're against the Code.

 

Treason: "You're asking me to do something against the Jedi code." That would certainly include assassination. Letting go of loved ones is part of the code in that attachments are forbidden. I included Obi-Wan's "wise" remark in the same way that I included Mace's "trust" remark. They're prominent Jedi on the council, so they have authority. They basically epitomize the Jedi, so I gave them credence over the non-commentary of the Order as a whole with respect to Anakin.