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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Did Anakin have sufficient evidence to really believe the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Sin, Nov 1, 2007.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    The Jedi in no way "duped" Anakin. Qui-Gon even told him it would be a hard life.
     
  2. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    The Jedi kept one fact from the Senate and they withheld that because there was nothing the Senate could do and it would only cause forces rallied against peace and justice to multiply. The Jedi aren't afraid to lose their power, the Jedi realize that they are the last pillar holding up the dead institution of the Republic government and that revealing their weakness would cause it to fall.

    And Palpatine was neither.
     
  3. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2007

    True enough.

    But I don't see the Jedi reacting all that negatively to the fact they are thinking like Dooku. They seem disappionted that it has come to this, but there aren't in panic mode or anything.

    True.

    Really? How can you make that case when the people supported Palpatine and by attempting to assassinate him the Jedi are going against the wishes of the people. Like you just said the Republic is the people and the people wanted Palps.

    True, Palps was out for himself. However that doesn't matter because the people wanted him and his Empire. I'd like to know what ideal Palpatine betrayed because liberty and freedom are not required of democracy. By going after Palps, the Jedi were preserving their order, but going against the democracy.


     
  4. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    I make the case because unlike the people, the Jedi actually know what Palpatine is, they know how he has lied and manipulated the situation, they know he is responsible for the entire Clone Wars. I don't think you could dispute that had they succeeded in arresting Palpatine, and brought all the evidence to bear, that most of Palpatines supporters would abandon him. Those he controlled directly would be the only ones left supporting him. The Jedi know the situation, the people don't. They blindly support Palpatine out of ignorance. Palpatine completely changed the rules regarding the entire structure of the Empire. Had this occurred in America, you might say that he established, with the help of a corrupt congress, an authoritarian government that went completely against the US Constitution, and subverted everyone's rights right underneath them. People can be manipulated, and the People can therefore be wrong. Just because a majority of people favor something doesn't make it a good thing, or legal.

    The only reason the people wanted Palpatine is because he manufactured a war to make himself look strong. They wanted him because of the threat of the Separatists, and they needed a strong leader to defeat them. Had they known Palpatine was behind the entire thing, do you really think he would have been as strongly supported? The support was based entirely on an artificial war, that unbeknownst to them, Palpatine created himself.

    I wonder if you have ever had a Civics class, where you learned what a Republic was...Representative government. It is clear that the Galactic Republic was based on a model where planets or sectors would elect representatives to represent them in the Galactic Senate, and then the Supreme Chancellor is elected from within the members of that Senate. The Galactic Republic was a Constitutional Democracy. Palpatine did everything he could to subvert not only the Constitution of the Republic, but manipulated the people, subverting the People's free will. The Galactic Republic only existed in name by the time the Jedi went to arrest Palpatine. Palpatine had already created the Empire, he just hadn't proclaimed it yet. It was the Republic in name, but the Empire in policy. The Jedi and the early Rebels such as Padme, Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and others recognized this. There was no Republic anymore. The Jedi were trying to restore what was.
     
  5. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Not panic mode, but to me at least for Mace and Yoda it seemed like a "What are we becoming?" kind of moment where they both decided to step back and just hope that the Chosen One would fulfill the Prophecy. Now, I could see Ki-Adi still being in favor of forcibly doing whatever is 'necessary' given that he's the one who suggested it
     
  6. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2007

    And what politican hasn't lied and manipulated a situtaion to their advantage? Granted few have gone as far to create an entire war, but plently have manipulated events for excuses to go to war or commit acts of violence.

    Palpatine would probably lose some of his support, but I doubt the only support he would have left would be the people he directly controlled. The people showed they would rather have a strong leader than a ineffective Senate.

    Except that Palpatine creating an authoritarian government does not go against the Constitution because the people supported it and willingly gave Palpatine more and more power. The reason constitutions can be ameneded is so they can fit with the populations needs and wants. The people needed and wanted a strong executive branch. You accuse me not taking government classes, yet you say if the majority favor something that doesn't make it legal. Last time I checked, if representatives that the people elected favor something in the majority that thing becomes of becomes a law. If the majority of the Senate wanted Palpatine to get more power than legally he has more power.

    Palpatine did gain support because of the Clone Wars, but he had plently of support before that, back in TPM. Yes sympathy for Naboo did help him, but sympathy enough will not win you an election, which means Palpatine must have had some support.

    I could ask you the same, since you think that if the majortiy votes to do something, then it is not legal, or the fact that you believe that what the people want isn't important since they can be manipulated. By your same reasoning, since the Jedi can be manipulated, the fact they want to restore the Republic isn't right or legal.


    Palpatine did not take away the people's free will. He manipulated them, but again I ask you what politican doesn't use manipulation? They did not have to elect him in TPM and they did n
     
  7. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    When did I say that when the majority wants something it was always wrong? I didn't. You are putting words in my mouth. What I said, was that just because the majority wants something doesn't inherently make it the right thing to do. If 51% of Americans decided that they wanted to invade Canada, does that make invading Canada the right thing to do? A majority of Americans were against the Civil Rights Act...does that mean it wasn't the right thing to do? The only reason the Civil Rights Act got passed was because Senators and Representatives went AGAINST the majority opinion of their constituents, because they knew it was the right thing to do. In this case, the politicians knew better. Usually, the majority gets it right. Usually. But that doesn't mean they can't be whipped up into a fervor and vote for something stupid if given the chance. If a vote had been held on Sept 12, 2001, which the choice between nuking Afghanistan and not, I wonder what those votes would have been...NOW, in hindsight, of course it would have been a stupid thing to do...but if you asked the same question shortly after 9/11 happened, how many people would be thinking unclearly, and vote for it as purely a reactionary measure? Individual people are far more intelligent when they aren't part of a mob. Palpatine had people whipped up into a fervor, because they didn't know that the very threat they were scared by to support Palpatine's authoritarian regime was created entirely by Palpatine himself. Had everyone known how Palpatine lied to them, manipulated them, you really think they would blindly support him? Support under false pretenses is not true support. If Palpatine had been able to maintain his support with the truth, why did he work so hard to make sure he deceived everyone?
     
  8. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2007

    1st, when I say majority, I'm not only talking about the majortity of the population, but also the majority of the Senate. 2nd when did I ever say when the majority wants something they are wrong? What I did say is that you are wrong in stating that if the majority proposed to do something their actions would be illegal. Last time I checked the 1st step for a bill to become law is approval by a 2/3 majority.

    Except that the Republic after the start of the Clone Wars is not even close to the US after 9/11. Right after 9/11, their was fear, anger and lust for blood. There was none of that after AOTC. In fact most people didn't even seem to give a damn about the Seperartists. Yes violence can create rash responses. No that is not the normal response.

    Yes, people are more intelligent when they aren't part of a mob. As to this fervor you are referring to, where is it? I don't see any anger or malice towards the CIS in AOTC. No marches, no outrage at the division of the Republic, no nothing.

    The people wouldn't blindly support Palpatine. They would evaluate the Republic under his rule compared to that of past leaders such as Valorum and decide whether they would have a leader that lies, but is strong and effective, or a Senate that lies, is corrupt and is ineffective. As for Palpatine's deception, that was mainly so the Jedi wouldn't figure out what he was and kill him.

     
  9. MASTER_DOODOO

    MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2005

    It's almost like Lucas really didn't know how to write a good pre-trilogy storyline, eh? [face_whistling]
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    There was more than that as many have accused the Jedi of not going to the Senate, when they found out about Palpatine. Nor that they knew of the Clone Army sooner. As to losing their power, it's not just here but about what happened before the war.

     
  11. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    The Jedi barely knew about the Clone Army before the Senate and they had no concrete information to bring before the Senate. As for Palpatine, Mace addresses that "He controls the Senate and the courts..." None of which is due to fearing a loss of power.

    And Anakin was wrong.
     
  12. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Anakin did know Palpatine wasn't helpless. He gets there as Mace backs him into the corner, BEFORE Palpatine starts his lightning attack on Mace. He watches Palpatine unleash his Force lightning on Master Windu. Nothing changes after that to explain how Anakin could think Palpatine was helpless, other than his own selfish desires. Its quite humorous to me, that on the Invisible Hand, when he truly has Count Dooku helpless, on his knees, with both hands cut off, that Palpatine urges him to kill him, saying he is too dangerous to be left alive...and then, when Mace has Palpatine in less than a helpless state, and argues he is too dangerous to be left alive, all of a sudden, because Anakin has something material to gain, he changes his mind about Sith Lords. He was all fine with killing a helpless Dooku, but when Mace tries to kill a non-helpless Palpatine, all of a sudden thats a breach of the Jedi code? Anakin's code of ethics are certainly situational at best. He does whatever is in the best interests of Anakin, not what is in the best interests of the Jedi or galaxy.
     
  13. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2007
    I couldn't agree more. Thats a great post
     
  14. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 14, 1999
    Irregardless as to whether Anakin fully understood the Jedi code in relation to what the Jedi Council should or should not have done in the case with Palpatine, what he did know was that Palpatine was the Sith Lord the Jedi had been looking for. He knew that the Jedi had good reason to believe that a Sith Lord was somehow controlling the Senate.

    Anakin was aware that the Sith Lord they were pursuing was behind the war and no doubt bent on bringing the Republic under its grip. When Anakin learned the truth about Palpatine, it is interesting as to his first reaction to finding out he was the Sith Lord. He knew and sensed how dangerous this man was by igniting his lightsaber. When Palpatine asked Anakin if he was going to kill him, Anakin answered "I should"! Why did he feel this way and say this?? Because in those few moments Anakin realized what this meant and what Palpatine had done.

    So what am I saying? Anakin had learned as a Jedi how serious of business it is when dealing with the Sith. He knew they were the primary enemies of the Jedi and destroying them was of a higher order than following the policies and procedures of the Republic, even if the Sith Lord was the Supreme Chancellor. And in this case because he was the Supreme Chancellor, how much more this man needed to be eliminated seeing he was in the role and position of power he maintained.

    Lastly, let's not forget that Mace and other masters did originally go to arrest Palpatine, not to kill him. It was only after he attacked the Jedi and killed the 3 masters that Mace made the decision that he must die. Anakin's own selfish desires would not allow him to see this. I actually believe that when Anakin arrived on the scene he was not even going to allow Mace and company to arrest Palpatine either, because if he had gone to trial and then imprisoned Anakin knew he could not get his help even in that situation.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
     
  15. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    I am not arguing that Anakin perhaps misunderstood it, I am suggesting he deliberately ignored it altogether.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi needed to let the Senate know about these things, because it was important to be open and honest with the Senate. By witholding facts, they've made matters worse for themselves. And yes, Palpatine controls the Senate and the courts, but Mace also knows that their power is threatened by the Sith.

    So was Mace.

    I didn't say that Anakin's selfishness didn't factor in. But there is also the fact that Palpatine was still helpless. Remember, Palaptine fakes being weak and Anakin believes it. That's why he attacks Mace and when Palpatine has killed Mace, he yells "What have I done?" He didn't know that Mace was going to die. He believed that Palpatine was incapable of killing Mace and his power was fading.

    Actually, he would so long as it allowed Palpatine to live so he could learn. He wants Palpatine arrested instead of dead, because while in custody, he can get it out of him. Through force if necessary. He'd beat it out of Palpatine if he didn't give it up willingly. He doesn't care about Palpatine, just what he could give him. Now, if Palpatine said that he will not do it while in custody, then we'd have a separate ballgame.
     
  17. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    I would argue that "What have I done?" has less to do with his belief that Palpatine was incapable of killing Mace, and more to do with the realization that he just crossed a line he doesn't believe he can ever cross back over from (and, for the next 23 years, he would be right). "What have I done?" is his Judas moment. He knows he just betrayed everything the Jedi stood for, he knows he just cast his lot with the devil. It is a statement of enormous regret. He gives himself to Palpatine afterwards, because he has no longer has any other options. He knows that he chose to cling to his selfish desire rather than do the right thing, but, once the act was committed, he was committed. In for a penny, in for a Pound, and all that.

    Look at his scene with Padme afterwards, when he returns from wiping out the Jedi Temple. He has this sheepish guilty as hell look, and cannot look Padme eye to eye in explaining why he had to kill all of the Jedi. He is ashamed of his decision, and then is desperate to find a way out of it, by trying to convince Padme that he can overthrow Palpatine, and rule the galaxy with her...She refuses to go along with it, because, lets face it, Padme is a lot smarter than Anakin is. She understands that Anakin has crossed a line she cannot cross with him. She knows that the man she married no longer exists, she understands that the Anakin Skywalker she knew has been replaced by whatever Darth Vader is. She may not know that Darth Vader is Anakin's new identity, but she knows that the man trying to plead his case to her is no longer the man she married. Anakin is feeling extremely guilty, and is trying to worm his way out of his deal with the devil.
     
  18. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    The Jedi telling the Senate would have caused the Republic to lose faith in the Jedi even faster and would allow Palpatine to frame them as incompetent during the middle of the Clone Wars. The way that they handled it, they came within an inch of salvaging victory.

    He was. He thought Anakin was a better man than he ended up being.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    But they still blew it and still came out looking bad. Perhaps had they done things differently, things might have gone better.

    He was wrong for doing this in front of a boy who was attached to Palpatine. He was also wrong for letting his anger get the best of him.
     
  20. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I see no reason to assume it would have. All but those who were part of the Delegation of 2000 were merely puppets of Palpatine.

    The former I agree with, the latter didn't happen.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    At the very least, the Jedi wouldn't look as if they were hiding something. Which they were.

    To go from arrest to killing, after being provoked, there's no way emotion doesn't play in that.
     
  22. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I'm not denying they were hiding something.

    Mace realizes from first hand experience that Palpatine is far from helpless and subdued and realizes that he has to use lethal force.
     
  23. Obi-Chron

    Obi-Chron Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Mace started off with his posse having a pretty good idea that Palpatine was indeed a Sith. The pieces of the puzzle were falling together. Anakin's revelation jives with what the Jedi were sensing -- the dark side "surrounded the Chancellor." From the get-go the Jedi knew (after Dooku was revealed a Sith) that the Sith were behind the galactic civil war, behind assassination attempts on galactic officials, behind the death of Qu-Gon. They knew the Sith were bad to the bone, so why start off with 'arrest' as the motive against Palpatine? Why was Windu so totally deceiving himself?

    The change of mind after confronting the Chancellor with deadly force (drawing light sabers, four to one, on an unarmed elected high official of the Republic) comes across as more emotional than of necessity (as possibly intended). Experiencing Palpatine's power first-hand, Mace apparently makes a battlefield decision. That decision appears emotionally motivated, no matter what the justification from Lucas. Mace goes in 4-1, ends up 1-1 (which becomes 1-2 when Anakin shows up), and elects to play judge and jury and eliminate the Sith Lord in Supreme Chancellor's clothing.

    Mace may have been right regarding his personal experience of Palpatine's power after three of his commrades fall and he experience the Sith's rage and power, but he was wrong by the rules of the Republic. Mace technically dies a traitor, not a hero. Oh, the decimated Jedi pay homage to him, but history is written by the victor, not the vanquished.



     
  24. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    The Jedi Order as a whole becomes a treasonous organization, but that doesn't mean they were wrong. If treason made you wrong, the Rebel Alliance are wrong as well.

    Imperial Propoganda would certainly depict the Jedi as baby snatching, traitorous, debauched, "mystics" who attempted to establish their tyrannical rule and assassinate the brave and noble ruler of the Empire, His Imperial Majesty Emperor Palpatine. However, as we know, that's not the truth. Mace Windu was trying to save the Republic by cutting off the corruption at it's source, the Chancellor. As long as he lived, the Republic's transition into a tyranny was unable to be prevented. Mace moved first to arrest because while he had Anakin's word, there was no proof that he was the Sith Lord and not one of his advisers. This becomes clearer and clearer throughout the duel. Mace 'disarms' Palpatine and is ready to arrest what he thinks is a defenseless Sith Lord when the Dark Lord launches his hatred at Mace who manages to barely block it, and realizes that a Dark Lord of Palpatine's caliber is never disarmed and so he decides to end this, one and for all.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Treason is wrong depending on how you look at it. No matter what your moral justification for it is, it still is a crime if it fails. And the actions of the Jedi, namely Mace in this situation was noble, but they were all wrong. And as Obi-Chron put it, far greater than I, Mace acted emotionally. Something he shouldn't have done. Something that came from Palpatine's prompting. He was playing Palpatine's game the whole time. By not doing what he wants, can Mace take control of the game.
     
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