Did Anakin have sufficient evidence to really believe the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic

Legality =/= Morality. What the Jedi did was illegal and what the Rebellion did was certainly illegal, but they were right to do so.

And as shown in my previous post I don't see the scene that way at all.

 

So by your logic, Obi-wan was wrong to kill Darth Maul because he got emotional over Maul killing Qui-Gon but Obi-wan had no choice because Maul is a major threat as is Palpatine. If he's allowed to live, he will push the Order 66 button killing every Jedi in the cosmos thus allowing Palps to make the galaxy his playground even if it meant endangering countless lives. I say Mace was right in wanting to kill PalpSidious but Anakin doesn't see that since he's suffering from the Sith mind trick that Palps has the power to save Padme and after he saves PalpSidious, he realises what I've been saying just by uttering the words "What have I done".

Actually, Mace will end up just as we saw on the film only without Anakin cutting off his hand. If the Jedi hadn't done what they did, they would've died anyway and the Republic along with everything it stood for will be erased completely by PalpSidious's trickery.

That is the real treason here.

 

Obi-wan let go of his emotions when he killed Maul. He had no fear, anger and hate. He let it all go when he realized his mistake as he hung there and cleared his mind of emotion, thus allowing him to kill Maul without being tainted. Mace did not know of Order 66. We do. Anakin wasn't suffering from a mind trick. He was tricked by his own emotions, his own selfishness and greed. Mace, was manipulated into changing his mind when he shouldn't have.

The Jedi were screwed either way, but they wouldn't have been playing Palpatine's game.

 

We can only imagine some alternate future where Mace asked Anakin to help him arrest Palpatine. Would the Sith spring another well placed trap? Have Padme kidnapped? Execute Order 66 right then and there? Let the arrest happen and Senate trial play out? The dark lord seemed to have a backup plan for every plan, and a backup to the backup.

As Sinister aptly notes, the Jedi were "screwed either way." No matter how the Jedi played the Sith/Jedi chess game, the Jedi were eventually check mated. But there are degrees of defeat: The purge might have taken a lot longer, or groups of Jedi might have escaped to help form and run the rebellion, teaching the galaxy of Palpatine's true nature. Luke's training might have been entirely different in this case -- again, just possibilities in an endless list of possibilities.

Windu's death and the Galactic Empire were not 'just' the fault of our beloved PT Jedi. The order had been asleep for many, many years while generations of Sith worked doggedly behind the scenes to steadily weaken the Jedi and the democratic rule of the Republic. The Sith exploited openings, seeded dissent, then with Palpatine finally in place as a member of the Senate in TPM, made the move long planned for, long awaited.

Checkmate -- Sith!

 

But the Jedi weren't doomed either way. If Anakin had done his duty and killed Palpatine, balance would have been brought to the Force. The Republic may have questioned their story, but the Jedi could always get Palpatine's saber hilt tested for fingerprints or something.

 

^^^
True, Master_Skywalker, but just another one of the 'alternate universe' possibilities, which, had it happened, would have negated the OT.

We knew Palpatine had to rise to power from the results of the OT, it was how he rose to power and the Jedi role in that rise that held ripe PT possibilities. But yes, Anakin could have killed Palpatine right then and there in Palpatine's office and fulfilled the prophecy. He chose not to. By the Mace 'I'm gonna kill you, sucka' scene, the fate of the order and the galaxy was essentially sealed as noted above.

Personally, I would've like to have seen that scene much earlier, then seeing Anakin torn by his part in the arrest of Palaptine and the possibility of losing Padme. Perhaps watching him politically turn to support the Chancellor during the trial, pitting him philosophically against the Jedi and Padme by mid-movie, all the while growing in the power of the dark side with Palpatine's help.

Had a trial found Palpatine innocent, largely through Anakin's role, and the Jedi decided to act as the felt they must to save the Republic, Palpatine could've played Order 66 and ordered Anakin's partaking in the Temple massacre, Mustafar, etc.

Just my fanboy dream.

 

I think I would have preferred that as well given that it would show Mace's statement that the Senate was in Palpatine's pocket rather than having a character tell it to us.

 

But it *is* shown to us. Watch the Senate scenes. They clearly reveal that the senators are in his pocket. By ROTS, Palpatine is able to declare: "I am the Senate!"

 

True, we see the Senate's corruption in TPM when they're unwilling to help the Naboo all the way to RotS where "Liberty dies with thunderous applause." The courts we never see, but I guess we don't need to with the Senate serving as emblematic of all branches of the Republic's government.

 

It didn't matter if Mace knew of Order 66 or not, he already sensed that PalpSidious is plotting to "destroy the Jedi" and will enact on that plot if he's allowed to breathe. If Mace had stayed in "arrest" mode, the outcome, as I've already mentioned, will still be the same as the film only without having Anakin cutting off Mace's hand because Mace is making himself into a sitting duck by doing nothing and it is that refusal to act that allows PalpSidious the opportunity to kill Mace where he stands. As for Anakin, he IS suffering from a Sith mind trick since he's obeying every word that comes out of PalpSidious's mouth especially the whole "having the power to save Padme" bit which is why Anakin was begging Mace not to kill Palps.

But he will still be victorious.

 

Mace was killed because Anakin acted, as a result of Mace changing his mind. The boy needs to understand that he is being tricked first and to do that, he has to arrest Palpatine and hold him long enough to talk sense into him. Or at the very least, get the person who can talk the most sense to him back home. That is the only way for Anakin to see the truth. If Anakin believes that Mace will not kill Palpatine, there is a chance to convince the boy that he is being set up. Mace played Palpatine's game and lost because he acted poorly.

 

Arresting Palpatine will NOT convince Anakin of anything because he will still want Palps to divulge to him the information he needs on how to access the power that will help Padme survive childbirth. The fact that Palpatine confessed that he's the Sith Lord that the Jedi were looking for should've been enough to tell Anakin that he's been tricked for all these years thus making the so-called, death-defying power a big fat lie. If Mace wanted to convince Anakin that he's being tricked, then he should've brought him along to the Senate chambers in the first place so that Anakin would see first hand that the Jedi do trust him and that PalpSidious has been fooling him from the beginning.

As it is, I still say that Mace was doing the right thing and it is Anakin who acted poorly by ignoring his common senses.

 

PM,

You forget that Anakin's mind is cloud by one single purpose, the idea of losing his wife. That clouded his judgement for the rest of the film, from the moment he had the vision of Padme in pain.

In essence, by Jedi teachings, Anakin was doing the right thing, but for selfish purposes, but it's still the right thing to do. With Mace, by Jedi teachings, he's technically doing the wrong thing. But to us, as the audience, it is the right thing to do because of what Palpatine has been doing for two and a half films.

Still, Anakin knew who Palpatine was. He knew that he was probably being tricked but, in Anakin's mind, he can't take that risk. He vowed to never let another loved one die again, as long as he breathed. He meant that at his mother's funeral. His downfall was cemented in that scene.

So, to see Mace about to strike Palpatine, Mace's actions forced Anakin's hand. He had no choice. And that's what Palpatine was counting on.

As to the opening question of this thread, of course Anakin didn't have proper evidence that the Jedi were going to overthrow the Senate. That's not what that statement he says to Obi-Wan is about. There's a subtext to it. And that text is that Anakin is completely gone, consummed fully by the Dark Side of the Force. If that statement at the end by Anakin doesn't make any sense, it's because it's not suppose to. Between the lines, it just fully shows how fargone Anakin is at that moment...to believe such a ridiculous statement.

 

We all have a point of view on things. Anakin's was shaped by his own greed, his selfishness and the manipulations of Palpatine. He successfully managed to make Anakin believe these things, by making the Jedi do things that were highly suspect. That's why Lucas talks about the lines between black and white being replaced by shades of gray. That is what happens to Anakin. If the Jedi made an attempt to explain to him what was wrong, there is a strong possibility that he can see the truth. Especially when it comes to Darth Plagueis, because the Jedi do not have his name in their files.

 

I have ... gradually... come to see the Mace/Anakin/Sidious scene very differently than I did in the past.

I think there are two very very very critical moments in the six films - arguably, the MOST critical moments. Those moments are:

(1) When Mace has Sidious "at his mercy", and decides to strike...

and

(2) When Luke has Vader at HIS mercy, and decides NOT to strike...

And both those moments are about tests of faith.

I am a fan of the Jedi. I don't lay the rise of the Sith at their feet, I don't think that Lucas did a very good job (if such was his intent) at demonstrating it was the failings of the Jedi that let Palpatine take power, and I most certainly do NOT excuse Anakin for his turn to the Dark Side. HE failed, he made a terrible choice, and billions paid for it.

BUT...

I think, perhaps, the Mace scene is meant to be contrasted with the Luke scene. When Luke throws down his lightsaber, that choice is NOT a logical one. It is not a "sensible" one. Even if Vader DOES turn back to the light side of the Force, what assurance is there that it will matter, at that point? When Vader is weakened from the intense duel with Luke, injured, almost helpless, and Palpatine is completely unharmed and powerful? How does it benefit Luke, even if he does NOT intend to harm Vader, to throw down his only weapon, his only protection (albiet a modest protection!) against Palpatine?

Luke's choice is not "logical". It is a leap of faith. He is trusting to... the Force?... that he is going to do the right thing and that things will work out...turn out... because of that. Or not. It is out of his hands.

Mace faced a similar choice. And I don't think his choice to strike at Palpatine was illogical, or evil, or even arguably wrong, from a practical standpoint. But I think that the choice he was SUPPOSED to make there was to have faith, to choose the highest of high paths, and to NOT strike. Just as Luke would eventually choose, many years later. And if he HAD made that choice.....?

Who knows. Maybe Sidious would still have killed him...but perhaps THAT would have jolted Anakin into seeing Sidious for what he truly was. Maybe Anakin, with Sidious in custody, would have been reached by Yoda... or ObiWan...or just thought it out and turned back. It is hard to say... impossible to say. But the more I think on it, the more I feel Mace was "meant" to hold back..not because it was the practical thing to do, but because it was a moment that called for faith, not practicality.

Shadow

 

SHADOW hits on some key points here. Foremost among them are Luke's actions. He becomes what both Mace and Anakin were not -- a true Jedi. Anakin sees this as Luke lay dying at the hand of Vader's master. Anakin sees how he should have acted so long ago, how the Jedi order should have acted.

The fog surrounding Coruscant in the beginning of AOTC is literal and figurative. It represents the fog of the dark side, which as Yoda notes "clouds everything." But that cloud was a long time coming -- 1000 years long! The Sith were able to creep below the radar of the Jedi, expand and exercise their growing power, then make their move as we open TPM.

The Jedi of the PT are not solely to blame. The order was put to sleep over many centuries. The end result is that they freely served the Sith Master as generals doing his will in a war he started for his own advantage. How can the order NOT be at fault for failing to see that? The Jedi do the will of the Sith for more than a decade until Anakin brings them the truth they'd been searching for. Then when Anakin does what he was asked, he is still not trusted by Mace, who tells him to stay at the Temple while he and his posse head off to arrest the Chancellor.

Palpatine tells Mace "I am the Senate." But Mace, through his actions, is really saying "I am the Republic." Mace does not trust the Senate to conduct a fair trial, so instead of arresting the Sith, he decides then and there to be sherrif, judge and jury. He pays for his short-sighted arrogance, as does the rest of the order and the entire Republic they were sworn to serve.

 

Luke was not so much trusting that his father could come back or that everything will turn out all right. He was making a choice and taking a stand. He's telling Palpatine that he will not be turned and he will not kill his father. If he wants to do it, that's up to him. Luke will not commit patricide. What Luke doesn't get is that Palpatine is far more dangerous than he appears. By that time, his only hope is to plead for his father's help. He cannot block the lightning and he cannot summon his saber. He can barely move as it is, other than to writhe in agony.

Mace, like the other Jedi, had taken questionable actions. They may have been the only options left to them, but they came with a price. Palpatine has played his part well and it all rests with Anakin making the choice for salvation or damnation. Anakin doesn't have faith in the Force to wait and see. He only has faith in what Palpatine has told him, which hinges on a vow he made three years ago. A vow to never fail again. To protect that which is sacred to him at any and all cost.

 

refusing to kill your Sith Lord father is a far cry from refusing to kill a Sith Lord in general. Luke had extra motivation to throw down his saber, that Mace didn't. That doesn't make Mace any less of a true Jedi. Mace saw the farce that the Republic had become correctly. He was correct that Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive, he was correct to attempt to remove him. All casting away his lightsaber would have done would have gotten him killed by Palpatine instead of Anakin. If you think that had he turned his lightsaber off that everything would have been hunky dory, you are kidding yourself. Palpatine wasn't kidding when he said "I AM THE SENATE!". He knew, just as Mace knew, that if he was arrested, that the Senatorial Courts would have freed him, and he would be reinstated as Supreme Chancellor. Then, assuming Mace survived, Palpatine has him put on trial for treason, his corrupt court finds him guilty of course, and Mace gets executed, while Anakin is hailed as a hero, for trying to stop the assassination attempt. Palpatine wins. Anakin cuts Mace's arm off to prevent him from killing Palpatine, Palpatine wins. As soon as Anakin runs into his office, Palpatine knows that he has won. Mace's only fault in all of this was not being skilled enough to finish off Palpatine before Anakin showed up.

Mace gets faulted for not turning off his saber rather than try to kill Palpatine, because 23 years later, Luke turns off his saber rather than try to kill his father. This is a false analogy. The situations are not the same. Does anyone want to suggest that if Vader hadn't been there, and it was Palpatine that Luke had on the ground, that he would have hesitated, and done the same? Please. Had it been Palpatine Luke dueled, and they found themselves in the same situation, Luke goes for the kill, period, just like Mace. Just like he was trained for by Yoda. Luke was trained to be a Jedi warrior, the galaxy's only hope to take out the Sith. He was trained to kill the Sith, it was only his love of family that gave him the strength to attempt to restore his father. He has no such motivation for Palpatine. If Luke had found himself in the same position Mace did, he would have done the exact same thing. Anakin should have let Mace do it. Even if, as I have argued all along, that Palpatine was pretending to be a lot weaker than he actually was, it would have forced him to reveal that fact, or die. Once he reveals that he wasn't nearly as weak as Anakin thought, Anakin couldn't justify taking Mace down. He would have been forced to either step aside and let Mace do what he had to, or join him in destroying the Sith...fulfilling his destiny. Anakin is the one at fault in that scene, he chose Palpatine instead of Mace. He chose selfishness over doing what is right. He chose himself over the fate of the galaxy.

 

There's an easy way for Anakin to dismiss the Jedi not knowing about Plagueis. The Dark Lords of the Sith went undetected for a millenia. He has no reason to trust the Jedi archives records about the Dark Lords. His own master found out that they were even incomplete about the galaxy's planets.

I really like your post but I'm not sure that I agree Mace should have thrown down his saber. Luke's situation was quite different from that Windu faced. Luke was facing his father who he had just disarmed and defeated by drawing on his fear, anger, and hate. Mace one the other hand was facing the Dark Lord of the Sith who he had just defeated by fighting in his normal state. I'm also unsure that Anakin didn't know what Palpatine truly was. He knew he was the Sith Lord they'd been looking for and that he was capable of shooting Force Lightning. I really think Anakin wasn't entirely duped by Palpatine's game but that he was moved out of selfishness.

I do think the scenes serve as a counter-point to each other(as well as Anakin's execution of Tyrannus at the beginning of RotS), but I think they compliment each other with Anakin serving as the central figure in the analogy rather than Luke/Mace. Anakin in RotS was still not truly a Jedi and as such he sided with the Dark Lord and enabled him to kill Mace out of his selfishness. However in RotJ Anakin was finally a Jedi in that moment and moved out of selflessness to save his son/fellow Jedi and killed the Dark Lord finally bringing the Force back into balance.

 

As for Anakin, he IS suffering from a Sith mind trick since he's obeying every word that comes out of PalpSidious's mouth especially the whole "having the power to save Padme" bit which is why Anakin was begging Mace not to kill Palps.


Anakin WAS NOT suffering from a Sith mind trick. It seems as if you're trying to absolve him of any blame. I think that the only "Sith" mind trick that Anakin was suffering from were his own fears and demnons. Palpatine merely took advantage of his flaws.


SHADOW hits on some key points here. Foremost among them are Luke's actions. He becomes what both Mace and Anakin were not -- a true Jedi.


Neither were Yoda or Obi-Wan. None of them were. They all made some very questionable decisions. Obi-Wan's last act before the final scene in ROTJ was to encourage Luke to commit patricide. Along with his inability to accept Anakin for himself and that horrible piece of advice about spying on Palpatine, I'd say that he was no more a "true Jedi" than Anakin or Mace. As for Yoda, I think that his decision to confront Palpatine in order to deliberately kill Palpatine without considering the consequences of his actions made him no better than Mace.

And has the "let's dump the Jedi flaws on Mace's shoulders" crapfest is going strong again?

 

Ah, but Palpatine said that Plagueis was someone that the Jedi wouldn't tell him about. Indicating that they knew of him. If the Jedi have no knowledge of his existence and that the claims from Palpatine are suspect, it won't look good for him.

 

Are you kidding??? Throughout Eps. 2 and 3, we see Anakin repeating every word that comes out of Palpatine's mouth as shown right here:

Palpatine-"I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda."
Anakin-I will be the most powerful jedi ever.
Palpatine-"They don't trust you, Anakin."
Anakin-Obi-wan and the Council don't trust me.
Palpatine-"They'll need you....more than you know".
Anakin-You'll need my help if you are going to arrest him.
Palpatine-"You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy."
Anakin-I have brought peace, freedom,justice, and security to my new Empire.
Palpatine-"I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over."
Anakin-I should've known the Jedi were plotting to take over.
Palpatine-"Every single Jedi including your friend, Obi-wan Kenobi is now an enemy of the Republic."
Anakin-If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.

This is similar to when Obi-wan uses the Jedi mind trick on someone and they repeat whatever he says. Even though Anakin wouldn't let go of his fears, he was still being "decieved by Palpatine's mind-tricks" just as Obi-wan said.

 

Oh please! Palpatine wasn't using some Sith mind trick on Anakin. Anakin was willing to listen to what Palpatine was saying, due to his need to have a mentor or father figure. Obi-Wan was not exactly fulfilling that need for Anakin.


I am a fan of the Jedi. I don't lay the rise of the Sith at their feet, I don't think that Lucas did a very good job (if such was his intent) at demonstrating it was the failings of the Jedi that let Palpatine take power, and I most certainly do NOT excuse Anakin for his turn to the Dark Side. HE failed, he made a terrible choice, and billions paid for it.


I believe that Lucas did an excellent job of showing the Jedi's failings. I also believe that many SW fans were unwilling to see this, due to their discomfort at the idea of the Jedi being flawed. They would rather stick to the old OT image of the Jedi as these perfect or near-perfect "defenders of the galaxy", who could do no wrong.

 

Palpatine is SO using a Sith mind trick because even when Anakin finally learned that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and has been lying to him over the years, Anakin still helps him destroy the Jedi. Anyone with a common sense would never listen to another word that came from someone pretending to be their friend and mentor no matter how scared they are of losing their loved ones but Anakin is like a gullible fish...he got hooked, lined, and sinkered.

 

Bunk. If it was a mind trick, then as soon as Palpatine stops doing it, Anakin would have turned on him. Unless you want to maintain that Palpatine is strong enough to maintain a mind trick for 23 years, of course. It also completely absolves Anakin of any guilt for his own actions. It means that Anakin never did anything wrong, it was all because he was under the influence of a Sith mind trick...I refuse to accept that line of reasoning. Anakin made his own choices that led him to where he was. Anakin chose Palpatine over Mace because he was a selfish individual, who thought he had something to gain by choosing Palpatine. Obi-Wan tells us in ANH that mind tricks only work on the weak minded. That also makes it extremely unlikely that Anakin would be vulnerable to one. He is incredibly strong minded. If he wasn't, he would have had a much easier time fully accepting the Jedi philosophy. It is exactly Anakin's strong willed nature that prevents him from being given the title of Jedi Master. He is incredibly stubborn. A mind trick would have been useless against such a strong willed individual. Anakin was reeled in hook line and sinker, but it had nothing to do with a mind trick being applied. Palpatine had no need to mind trick Anakin, because of his efforts at manipulation for over a decade, he already had Anakin, Anakin just hadn't realized it yet. But, Anakin still is responsible for his own actions. Anakin made some really poor choices.