Did Anakin have sufficient evidence to really believe the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic

Anakin would believe the Jedi were hiding it from him if they wouldn't or couldn't tell him.

 

Fine. If that's what you want to believe, please do so. However, I am not buying this "Sith mind trick" argument.

 

Anakin wasn't under a mind trick. He was being brain washed. He was being told the things that he wanted to hear, wanted to believe in because of his upbringing before going to the Temple. Anakin believes that he should be all powerful. That the Jedi need him and not he needs the Jedi.

Or they would tell Anakin to search his feelings and theirs. He would know it to be true.

 

I'm not sure about that. Anakin searched his feelings and found that he believed Palpatine was telling the truth about the Jedi.

 

Like so much else in the saga, what Palpatine told Anakin 'was' true, from a certain point of view.

The Jedi did seem as if they were afraid to lose power, and the Plagueis the Wise story brought that salient point home in the Opera, as well as the little gem that the Sith knew how to keep loved ones from dying.

The Jedi did fail to control the chaos in the Republic. They were weakened, one of the reasons Dooku left the order. Yoda admits the order is blinded by the dark side. And Anakin, as he informed Padme on Naboo in AOTC, is known to favor a strong, centralized government. run by "someone wise" who would "make" the politicians sit down and work problems out.

Anakin was all for grabbing life by the horns (symbolized with Anakin's riding the Shaak on Naboo and the Reek in the Geonosis arena). In fact, the Jedi couldn't even save themselves in the arena -- it took the Clones coming to the rescue (with Yoda at the lead) to save the survivors from certain death.

So faced with the prospect of letting the force run its course and losing Padme, watch the Republic dissolve in chaos while war raged on, or given the alternative 'grabbing life's problem by the horns,' Anakin is counseled by Palpatine into doing the latter. And as far as Anakin was concerned, when he did search his feelings, they told him what he needed and wanted to hear.

Anakin's choice was an easy one once Palpatine provided the tie breaker -- a possible way to keep Padme from dying. Everything pointed toward rejecting the pacifist Jedi and becoming a strong and powerful Sith. He searched his feelings, and he found the answer 'he' needed.

 

Yeah but at what cost? and did he really find the answer as Padme died anyway. I thought the answer was in the Shaman of Wills something Jinn and Yoda will teach Kenobi about? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

That's different. Anakin clearly wants to keep Padme alive and corporeal, not as a Force ghost.

 

He does, but had he paid attention to his Jedi training he'd have known that a dictatorship wasn't the Jedi way(which he claims to care about.)

Agreed on all of that.

Anakin's choice was one motivated solely by his selfish desire to not lose his wife. It also wasn't a choice between the pacifist Jedi(since they are far from pacifist) and the mighty Sith. It was the choice between his wife's life and the freedom of the galaxy. He made his choice, but it was a selfish and short-sighted one.

 

Both Anakin and Dooku leave the order for 'at least' one shared reason. They have a growing distrust of the Jedi order and think there is a better way of running the galaxy. The proof of this philosophy as far as Anakin is concerned is the meadow scene in AOTC. Anakin clearly informs Padme of his personal preferences for political rule. It is a hint of things to come.

Yes, yes, and more yes -- Padme is the ultimate reason for Anakin's turn as painted by Lucas. But his turn might have never happened had the Jedi payed as much or more attention to Anakin's internal conflict as Palpatine did -- had the Jedi addressed Anakin's concerns about his mother; had Yoda more directly handled Anakin's questions about the loss of a loved one; had Obi-Wan counseled his former Padawan on the dangers of taking a wife; had the counsel not dissed Anakin because Palpatine put him on the council; had the council not asked Anakin to spy on the chancellor (an act of treason); had the council not separated Anakin and Obi-Wan at a critical juncture; had Mace "trusted" what Anakin told him about Palpatine (after Mace and the council indirectly and 'off the record' asked him to do so); had Mace done what he set out to do and arrested the Palpatine instead of summarily acting as lawyer, judge and jury in determining his fate, seemingly proving Palpatine's little lecture at the Opera and blurring the lines between Jedi and Sith.

Anakin came before the council as the 'possible' Chosen One, at a time and in a way the order did not expect. The Jedi did not see the rise of the Sith, and 'no Sith, no need for a Chosen One. Plus, the council never appreciated how the force presented the boy to them. From his first experience before the council, Anakin can sense their collective doubt. He brings issues to the table that the Jedi are not comfortable dealing with. So they push those issues away, demanding in a sense that either he, Anakin or they, his issues, go away, leaving only the, standard issue cookie cutter padawan remaining to be trained.

Had the Jedi fully and unconditionally embraced Anakin, cared about the fate of his mother (and done something about it), addressed his conflicts, he might have learned to embrace them and let go of Shmi, possibly never even forming a possessive attachment for Padme (not to mention trust and respect for Palaptine). But alas, the way Lucas built the saga, we will never know.

 

Anakin's choice was one motivated solely by his selfish desire to not lose his wife.

I am continually amazed that choosing to save your loved ones is considered selfish.


and regarding the crux of the matter - the thread topic: At this point proof/evidence wasn't required. Anakin had been mentored for 13 years by Palpatine. If you have a mentor you believe that mentor is watching out for you and your best interests by definition. That's what makes Palpatine soooo .. insidious. He has never played by the rules of the game. And an innocent like Anakin was no match..
Even the experienced sages of the Jedi Council were no match. Why must we expect miracles from Anakin if they could not see, could not predict, could not believe?

 

Agreed. Anakin felt that the galaxy needed to be lead by a firmer hand just like Dooku believed that it needed to be lead by one less mired in the Senate's corruption. I do wish we had gotten more insight into Dooku's political idealogy though as it would be interesting to see if he had wanted a less corrupt democracy when he left and slowly started to favor oligarchy as he turned to the Dark Side or if he had always favored power being in the hands of the few or the one.

And had Anakin been as honest with the Jedi as he had the Dark Lord they may have been more open with him. They certainly have a piece of blame in how they handled him, but much of it is for things they had no way of knowing about such as seemingly proving Palpatine right when Mace moves to kill him and separating Skywalker and Kenobi when they did.

The Jedi attempted to deal with Anakin's fear of losing his mother. The problem is none of them had ever experienced something like the bond between mother and child so they had no idea how to deal with it when talking to someone who isn't able to and doesn't want to simply let it go.

It's selfish when you're doing because of your fear of losing them rather than concern over their well-being(which I admit is a subtle distinction.) Anakin almost always talks about losing Padme in phrases like "I can't live without her.

 

No. He had just enough information to fit within how he wanted things to be so he could feel that he was the "just" party, and so he could act in a manner that promotes his interests.

It all comes down to your point of view.

 

What a silly thread or question.........

The point wasn't whether Annie had sufficient evidence, the point was THAT HE WAS DECIEVED BY THE DARK SIDE!!!!!

 

Not really. He just reacted because Mace said that he was going to kill Palpatine, thereby killing Padme. He didn't really search his feelings, he just reacted because of what Mace said. He didn't look within himself, he looked from without. He looked at Mace and saw that he was going to do it. If he had really looked within, he would know that the Jedi were right as they had always been. That's why when Luke tells him to search his feelings, he does, because he realizes that Luke is right and that he had been completely wrong the whole time.

Exactly. It's not wrong to save those that you love, but it is when you do what Anakin wanted to do. It is a fine distinction, but a distinction none the less. Anakin needed to do this because Padme wanted him to do it, not because he couldn't get over his guilt from three years ago. That's why when he saves Luke, he does so because he is thinking about his son and not himself. He cannot let his son die, because he is the one truly good thing that he has ever done.

 

I meant earlier in the film when he's meeting with Palpatine in the opera

PALPATINE: (continuing) Anakin, you know I'm not able to rely on the Jedi Council. If they haven't included you in their plot, they soon will.

ANAKIN: I'm not sure I understand.

PALPATINE: You must sense what I have come to suspect . . . the Jedi Council want control of the Republic . . . they're planning to betray me.

ANAKIN: I don't think . . .

PALPATINE: Anakin, search your feelings. You know, don't you?

ANAKIN: I know they don't trust you . . .

PALPATINE: Or the Senate . . . or the Republic . . . or democracy for that matter.

ANAKIN: I have to admit my trust in them has been shaken.

Precisely.

 

Yes, his trust was shaken. But he still believed in them, no matter how fragile that trust was becoming, he still believed in the Jedi. That's why he told Mace. He knew that Palpatine was the villian and that he needed to be dealt with. His problem is that he didn't have someone say that he needed to stop and think. Luke did that and it worked. Obi-wan wasn't there and Shmi was dead. Anakin couldn't hear Qui-gon. And Mace was too wrapped up in what he was doing to see it in Anakin. Much less say it.

 

His feelings telling him that his trust in the Jedi had been shaken isn't a far stretch from his feelings telling him that Palpatine was right about them.

 

LUKE: "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?"

YODA: "You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive."

If Anakin was in a situation where he was not agitated and was able to calm himself, he would know who to trust.

 

That's the problem, Anakin is almost never at peace. I agree that his feelings wouldn't let him down in a situation where he had resolved his internal conflict, but I don't see how that situation would arise during Revenge of the Sith. The only way I think it may have would be if Obi-Wan was still on Coruscant and he wasn't.

 

And yet Anakin is increasingly surrounded by chaos -- in the galaxy with civil war, in his secret life with Padme, his confusing relationship with Palpatine ("kill him!"), and in his chosen profession as a Jedi.

Anakin is appointed by Palpatine to the council. The council refuses Anakin the status of master, then asks Anakin (through his 'trusted' mentor Obi-Wan) to spy on the chancellor, his wise and trusted friend (a lot of 'conflicting' trust here). Oh, and spying is a potentially treasonous and very un-Jedi-like act.

All the more confused when Palpatine finally reveals himself as a Sith, he trusts his Jedi feelings and rushes to inform Windu, who still does not trust Skywalker, telling him to wait for at the temple as four Jedi head off to arrest the Sith chancellor. Anakin disobeys, rushes to the chancellor's office only to find Windu ready to kill, not arrest the chancellor.

Truly, Palpatine was largely behind Anakin's turmoil and confusion. Yet all the while the Jedi mouth the "stay calm, find peace" mantra, denying the psycho-therapy Anakin so desperately needs from the Jedi but finds only with Palpatine . . . who all along has been intellectually deceiving him.

" . . . calm, at peace. Passive." Yeah, right! Yada, yada, yada . . .

 

That's why I said that Mace should have not tried to kill Palpatine and instead arrest him. Then, once back in the Temple, begin making an effort to concentrate on Anakin's problem. There was just as much chaos in the OT as there was in the PT. What was needed was an opportunity to look within himself, without his conflicting emotions getting to him. When he does in ROTJ, he makes the right choice.

 

There was an equal amount of external conflict, but Luke had less conflict and so was able to trust his feelings. Vader's feelings deceive him until he sees through Luke that it is in fact possible to resist the Dark Side. This combined with Palpatine torturing his son causes Vader to finally see the truth.

 

Yeah. That "psycho-therapy" Anakin so desperately needs... which you admit is a deception. That's what Anakin "desperately needed"? To be stroked? And told he was right?

 

There is indeed much chaos for Anakin in ROTJ, but it is through the chaos that Anakin awakens, finds his focus, his mission, his holy grail. For the chaos of the galaxy brought forth Anakin into the material realm -- whether by a Sith magic trick or the sentient actions of the force itself. Anakin is at home in chaos.

In ROTS, during Anakin's last moments before he surrenders his Jedi soul to the dark side, he witnesses Palpatine zapping Mace with force lightning and throwing him to his death. Anguishing over what he knew he should've done versus what he felt he needed to do, he betrayed his Jedi order for a very shaky Sith promise to save his preggers wife. The anguishing trips Anakin up, clouds his razor sharp mind and precipitates only confusion.

Fast forward to the climax of ROTJ -- Luke awakens Anakin from his long slumber, and what does Anakin see? Yep -- Palps zapping his Jedi son with force lightning, playing with his son like a cat toys with a mouse before deciding to end his worthless existence. Anakin has a choice in this eerie redux -- continue in Sith slavery as both the Jedi order AND the Skywalker line end with Luke, or "do what must be done" and act as he could have, should have acted some 20-odd years ago. But he has no time to debate himself -- he must act, and act before it is too late. No time to deliberate. No time to weigh the pros and cons. The choice is binary -- yes/no, on/off, Sith/Jedi.

The dramatic chaos before an Anakin still groggy with his long Sith slumber jolts him into formulating a hasty but sharp and clear plan for what the returned Jedi must do, and do quickly. Anakin cannot hesitate. He boldly steps into the heart of the chaos transpiring before him, 'shattering' the Emperor's sublime moment of darkness, proving in the process that Mace was right -- Anakin IS indeed the 'shatter point' for the Sith. But he is more -- much more! Amidst the chaos transpiring in the throne room, the Chosen One appears.

In chaos Anakin acts admirably. It seems that it is largely when he has the luxury to deliberate that he trips himself up. The pod race -- more chaos -- shows us Anakin at his best, an almost reflexive entity forced to "trust his feelings" in order to do the right thing. When he has time to focus inwardly, he seems more often thatn not to get into trouble or make a bad personal decision. Chaos forces Anakin to rely upon and trust his feelings.

So as the old proverb states: "An idle mind is the devil's workshop."