Did Anakin love Padme too much?

Oh and love is selling your soul to the devil, to kill innocents because you're a selfish git, is right? Bull****! He needed to change who he was, because he was becoming a monster and she was making matter worse. First, Jedi are not to be encouraged to be angry. Ever! That's the whole point in avoiding the dark side. Giving into your anger and having someone encourage it, as Padme and Palpatine did, makes it easier for him to turn around and do it again and again.

No, she's not his mother. She's not even his wife yet. She's his friend and as such, her duty to her friend was to get him help. Not encourage his animalistic behavior. Yes, I said that. The only person who was the animal was Anakin, who slaughtered kids without hesitation. Without a second thought. And then he doesn't even show remorse for it. The boy needed help. Not someone covering up for him. She's an accessory to murder, because she covered it up.

Obi-wan did wish that he had Qui-gon's advice, from time to time. But he wasn't doing what Anakin did. He wasn't tearing himself up inside at his failure to save him. He wasn't trying to become all powerful.

 

1 Tuskins are like Indians of the old west ? no one cares if you kill them.



I hope you are refering to the people in the 19th century who didn't know better and not today. Because that's so far off the mark and totally offensive. The fact that people didn't care then, shows how messed up this country is.

darth-sinister


GoodGod!

Of coarse I?m referring to the 19th century ?Indians? as in ?cowboys and Indians? ?Old west? as in olden days when people didn?t care about the welfare of native peoples. Seesh sorry if that wasn?t clear enough for you. i forgot how easy it is to offend Americans.

And it?s not off the mark the relationship between the moisture farmers & the Tuskin raiders is like ?cowboys and Indians.? The moisture farmers are encroaching on the Sandpeoples territory & the sandpeople respond aggressively. The farmers do not regard the indigenous people of Tatooine as sentient people the same way that Europeans didn?t regard the Native Americans as fully human ? dismissing them as ?savages?.
I doubt the farmers would care that Anakin slaughtered the village.

 

Yes he loved Padme so much that he would choke her with the force... What happend is AOTC was lust, not love. Then the had to work it out in ROTS, Padme loved him but he may have.

 

I think Anakin did love her. Too much?? Too possessive I think. Anakin was perfect it many ways to join the sith. He was a greedy spolit brat.

 

1. Padme was NOT excusing Anakin's actions as being unimportant or understandable because all she is saying that it's human nature to feel angry and that we shouldn't pretend that we don't have feelings and emotions.

2. Telling the Jedi Council will only get Anakin kicked out of the Jedi Order and driving him closer to Palpatine. Anakin will hate everyone including Padme for "turning against him".

3. Padme can't help it if she's starting to admit her love for Anakin and besides, what Anakin did to the Tuskens is not murder, it's manslaughter.

4. The relationship and trust between Anakin and Obi-wan/The Jedi will still be destroyed even if he and Padme hadn't got married because Palpatine spent years brainwashing Anakin into thinking that the Jedi are his enemies. Also, There is a difference between dismissing and understanding because not once did Padme tell Anakin "good job" or "well done" upon hearing about the Tusken massacre since that would be considered dismissing the situation. Padme did NOT dismiss the Tuskens massacre because she knows what Anakin did was wrong but she also know that those "indegenous beings" killed his mom and 26 of her rescuers. Another thing, Padme DOES know that Anakin needs mental help but she also knows that none of the Jedi can help him due to their no-attachment rules and the fact that they don't know what it's like to lose a mom.

Padme didn't lecutre Anakin because she was afraid to, but because she knows that Anakin is in an emotionally fragile state over his mother's death.

It wouldn't make a differe

 

Well PMT then Anakin has a problem if he cant handle the truth that killing women and children is wrong and guess what no one says its wrong so what happens Ani does it again. Now when Padme decides to confront him about the matter its too late. Heck he figures she didnt say anything the first time so what I am doing must be okay. Also not all parents yell at their kids but some kids are disciplined and those are the ones that turn out okay. Its the ones whose parents let them run amock without checking them, screaming in the store,throwing tantrums in the store and coming in late when they want to. THose kids usually end up in a bad place.

 

She is excusing, because she said that it's okay. Anakin said that he knows better, because he is a Jedi. That's excusing it.

Except he doesn't think everyone is turning against him. That only happens when he has turned. Not before. Telling the Council might not get him kicked out. Don't go assuming that it will. They might discipline him and get him the help he needs.

It's murder. Manslaughter is just another way of saying murder. The law might define it as something slightly different, but murder is still murder.

No, he spent years telling Anakin that he's better all of them. He doesn't start turning him on the Jedi until he had killed Dooku.

She doesn't know that. She doesn't know that they cannot help him. Where do you get that? If I recall, she suggests going to Obi-wan. So don't even give me that one. She made things worse by not telling Obi-wan. She's wrong for not speaking up. For letting her personal feelings get in the way. That's part of the reason her heart is broken. She could've stopped this three years ago.

Where. Post proof of her being afraid of him?

Maybe you did, but not every kid attacks their parents. Most often, they get their ass beat down. Anakin doesn't think anyone is against him. He only says that about Obi-wan, because he's mad. But he doesn't think that of Mace or Yoda. Nor would he get mad at Padme. He needs help and if he gets mad at her, good. He's got problems and by turning a blind eye, you make it worse. If I was her, I would've contacted the Temple and inform them. No matter how much she loved him, he still needed help.

 

I'm still trying to catch up on the gist of this thread. I've never been a fan of analyzing the A/P romance in these terms - Did Anakin love Padme too much? (It boggles my mind somewhat. Can you love someone too much? Is there some sort of limits to love? If so, then is that 'finite' love still unconditional when it exists within boundaries?)

But looking over the earlier posts, I just needed to comment on this:

I really like highlighted point. I'm sure several people have already spotted the Oedipus Rex/Self-fulfilling Prophecy of Revenge of the Sith. By making a prophecy before a disaster, the oracle in the Oedipus story, and the Force in Revenge of the Sith, set into motion events that would fulfill the prophecy.

I think we all tend to assume that the Force has "good" intentions, and is on the Jedi's "side". We assume we can "understand" the Force. If the Force is really supposed to be an omniscient deity, then I don't think that's possible. Its foresight, its complete understanding of events surpass mere mortal comprehension. Its good intentions, the very machinations of its actions, and the cause/event sequences it sets into motion cannot always be understood by lesser "beings".

For whatever reason, the Force gave Anakin those nightmares in order to make sure that Anakin fell, the Jedi were destroyed, Vader was born and the Sith ruled for 2 decades before they obliterated each other. Don't ask me why. No-one truly understands the ways of the Force.

 

Anakin was the one who created those visions - he just subconsciously used the force to look into the future and read them out.

You can see this because the vision changes in the middle of the movie - why? Because Anakin suddenly decides to go after some Sith ability. And lo and behold - Padme isn't shouting his name anymore & Obi-Wan shows up in the vision. Anakin decides to try and attain an unnatural Sith power, even though he hadn't physically betrayed anyone yet ("I found a way to save you Padme") - becoming a Sith would always, always, turn Padme & Obi-Wan against him.

Hence - he changes the future, it wasn't the force that told Anakin about Darth Plagius. And it wasn't the force that made Anakin decide to follow up on that legend. Likewise - it wasn't the force that changed that vision, it was Anakin.

 

Anakin had recurring nightmares of Padme's death. The two we saw were just snaps of the same scene. In the novelization, she still cries out Anakin's name at the end, a few moments before Obi-Wan asks her to not give up.

Even if, as you say, Anakin subconsciously tapped into the future, it still remains that the Force permitted him to do so for a specific reason.

 

Its not that nobody told Anakin that what he did to the Tuskens was wrong, its that they were to preoccupied by the Clone Wars to even have a sitdown with Anakin.

But there are some parents that do yell at their kids and they sometimes beat up their kids whenever they do something wrong which is why we have child abuse and why we have kids hanging with streetthugs, robbing banks, and hurting people including their own parents. Also, Padme couldn't confront Anakin about the Tusken massacre due to the fact that they had to rescue Obi-wan and the fact that they have been seperated for 3 years due to the Clone Wars which is why Anakin continues to kill people.

She did NOT say it was okay. All she said is "To be angry is to be human" which means that she's telling Anakin to not pretend that he doesn't have any feelings over what he's done. Anakin misinterpret that as her saying that what he did is okay hence, "I'm a Jedi. I know i'm better than this".

Actually, telling the Council WILL get Anakin kicked out because they never wanted Anakin as a Jedi in the first place and only allowed it because they knew that Obi-wan made a promise to Qui-Gon. They are just waiting to find an excuse to kick Anakin out and hearing about the Tusken massacre will be just that. Also, Anakin does think that the Jedi are against him because he has known since his first meeting with them that they are not on his side on the count that they didn't want him trained so Anakin has resented them for that ever since. Once he turned to the Dark Side, Anakin was free to express that resentment towards the Jedi including Obi-wan.

It's only murder if Anakin killed the Tuskens in cold-blood but he did it out of revenge with a slight mix of temporary insanity since he was blinded by his rage to realise that he was attacking the women and children.

But he's also told Anakin that the Jedi don't trust him and can never help him with his problems and Anakin believed that which is why he told only Palpatine about the Tusken massacre.

I recall Padme telling Anakin that the Jedi are forbidden to love and she did overhear Obi-wan saying "not to do anythi

 

Except she's telling him that it is okay to have these feelings, which is wrong, because a Jedi should not have these feelings or rage.

No, they are not. The Council believes in Anakin and have embraced him. They aren't looking for an excuse and even trust him to start taking missions without Obi-wan, later making him a Knight. The mistrust comes in ROTS, when he abuses their trust with his angry outburst. If he had told him what he did, they might be willing to help him.

He didn't think the Jedi Council were against him. See above. He only had issue with Obi-wan, for a long time, because he wasn't made a Knight sooner. He only starts to get upset with the Council and the Order, when Palpatine actually starts corrupting him. Twisting things to suit his needs.

Murder is still murder. There is no temporary insanity. He knew what he was doing and had no problems with it.

Palpatine didn't say that until the issue of Padme's death came up. For 13 years prior to that, he didn't say that they distrusted him. Just that he would be better than them. He started the trust issues when he pulled the crap with the Council membership.

She could make a difference three years ago.

It's only broken because he did betray her. Not until then.

Aye and he just committed cold blooded murder. Which is wrong and she doesn't tell him what he did was wrong. He doesn't even show remorse for killing them. Just spouts off how he hates them and it's Obi-wan's fault.

He's not going to choke her in AOTC. He's not evil yet. He chokes her because he thinks she was twisted by Obi-wan. In AOTC, he knows she's not.

 

But it is a stretch to then say that the Force itself wanted Vader's fall, the Empire, and all the brutality that came with it to happen before the destruction of the Sith; to describe what the Force wants to happen, while at the same time saying nobody can understand the Will of the Force.
The origin of the vistions in ROTS, like the origins of Anakin Skywalker, has been left vague enough to allow multiple interpretations. Whether from the Force, Sidious, or Anakin's fevered imagination, what is important is how Anakin interpreted those visions. In the end, he interpreted them to say what he wanted them to say, just as he only listed to advice that fit what he wanted to hear.

 

By understanding the Force, I mean understanding the Force in "human" terms. i.e. believing/assuming that the Force sees right/wrong the way we do. It transcends our own mortal moralities.

To us, the Jedi, the "mortals" of the GFFA, Anakin turning Sith and destroying the Order was a bad thing. To the Force, it need not have been. To the Force, it probably didn't even have as much significance as Palpatine, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and even Anakin thought it did. Just a tiny square patch in the vast tapestry of eternity.

Actually from Yoda's teachings to Luke in ESB, we know that all prophetic visions originate from the Force. So, no, the "origin" of the visions is not vague. The "purpose" of the visions is.

What we do know about Anakin's dreams is - up until the one of Padmé - they've come to pass without his intervention. The most harrowing of all, the death of Shmi, came to pass because he chose not to intervene.

So why would the Force give him a vision of something that would come to pass because he had the vision?

It is all part of the un-ending debate of free will vs. predestination.

 

Anakin wasn't seeing Shmi's death. He was feeling her pain in the moment. However, the difference between the two visions is the fact that the latter vision is the result of actions that he took. He needed to see what his insane quest to become all powerful was going to get him. It was, in essence, a Jedi trial. Or more aptly put, a Force trial.

 

Actually dreams imply "vision", not just feelings. The first scene in the AotC novelization is Anakin's very vivid vision of Shmi shattering. A vision which occured "before" her kidnap.

Like I said, it's the unending debate of free will vs destiny. If not for the trial, there would not have been a failure. The question remains why an omniscient Force would deliberately trigger the tragedy.

 

To test it's champion against the darkness within his own soul. Anakin has to face the dark side within, in order to conquer it from without. In order to bring balance to the Force, he must be balanced within himself. He must resist the temptation to become a Sith and thus have all kinds of power.

 

I'm not really sure. From what I have seen from the films, the only trials are set by the Jedi or the Sith. Destiny, so to speak, lets things go their natural course. By that reasoning, it seemed that the Force purposely set into motion events that would lead to Anakin turning.

Omniscience meaning all-knowing, the omniscient Force doesn't need to test its champion to prove whether Anakin is worthy or not. By the same vein, it already knows the outcome of events, before those events happen.




edit

The more I think about it, the more I cannot help but wonder:

Is it not possible that what happened to Shmi was a red herring that Anakin was meant to fall for. After all, when he had the dreams of her, he did like a good little Jedi boy and ignored them ? until it was too late to do anything about them. But if he had believed those dreams, and come after his mother, he would have stopped her death at the hands of the Tuskens.

It is the very fact that he failed to do the right thing the first time, that makes him so determined to save Padmé.

What if that was deliberate?

If Anakin had never had those dreams of his mother, dreams which he had not answered, he would have ignored the dreams about Padmé, the way he first ignored the dreams about Shmi.

It almost seems like if Anakin was ?set up? not just with the dreams of Padmé ? but even with the dreams of his mother ? by the Force, destiny, whatever you call it.

Sort of like the opposite of the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

 

Well, Lucas' oirginal intention was that Palpatine would tell Anakin that Dooku had bragged about arranging for Shmi's death. This was during the Anakin/Dooku fight. So in a way, the Sith were prompting his turn. But I think Lucas opted to leave it out, so that we believe that it was the Force's will.

It doesn't have to be that the Force wanted Anakin to go back. It's that Anakin needed a trial that the Jedi could not do. The Jedi do put him through to being a Knight, but this isn't about being a Knight. This is about being a good person who must avoid temptation. Just as Obi-wan and Yoda both tell Luke that he has to fight his father, if he is going to be a Jedi. Knowing full well that it could cause him to turn or not. This trial, the trial by the Force, makes up for what the Jedi will fail to do. They never made Anakin take the trials. They promoted him based on the strength of what he did on Jabiim and Preasitlyn. Also, unlike a Jedi trial, this one is far more important as this is the Chosen One. The one destined to bring balance. But he's got personal issues. Attachments. He could succumb to temptation. He must be tested.

 

According to dictionary.com, a trial, as used in Jedi "trial" for example, is: The act or process of testing, trying, or putting to the proof: a trial of one's faith. An instance of such testing, especially as part of a series of tests or experiments: a clinical trial of a drug.

The Jedi try their apprentices before Knighting because they need to "test" them. The Council doesn't know for sure if the Padawan will prove a worthy Knight. The same with Sith.

The Force, being omniscient, already knows the outcome of everyone's life.

That's the problem. You are looking at the Force as one more player in the game. It's not. It owns both the players and the pieces.

To quote what I said earlier about the parallels between Anakin's fate and Oedipus Rex's:

You are still judging the Force the way you'd judge an individual. It's not. The Force is not on the Jedi's side. At best, they try to be on its side, to follow the Will of the Force, so to speak. But they are hampered by the limits of their understanding.

As Yoda said to Mace in RotS: "A prophecy that misunderstood, could have been."

 

Anakin's connection to his mother is why he had the vision of her in pain. Anakin's guilt over his failure to save his mother and his continuing turn towards the dark side, is what causes his vision of Padme dying. The latter one is a response to fear being brought into a situation. And of doing things bad in your life, which Lucas comments about with Luke having his confrontation with Vader in the tree cave. In the case of Shmi, his connection to his mother is such that when something bad happened, he sensed it in his dreams.

 

Well unfortunately Anakin didnt see her that way he saw her more as a mother than a wife.

I believe that Anakin had stopped viewing Padme as a replacement for his mother a long time before AOTC. Because I certainly did not see that . . . regardless of how others may think. And whether or not you are right, it STILL WASN'T PADME'S PLACE to lecture Anakin.

 

Obi-wan's not there, nor is the Council. She is his friend, so by default it falls to her.

 

Exactly, and if she wasn't ever going to "lecture" him on it - then she should've either informed the Jedi Council of it, or convinced Anakin to confess to the Jedi. She should've made sure he learned his lesson. If she really cared for him, she should've been ready to sacrifice her relationship with him for his own good.

Standing by while he promises to go on a quest to become more powerful then death won't help anyone. Least of all, Anakin himself.

 

But Anakin isn't an ordinary Jedi because he was never raised since infancy in the Jedi Temple. The Jedi should've known that telling Anakin that he shouldn't have feelings would only make him unstable and should've found another way to help him learn how to control his feelings instead of making him bottle them up.

The Jedi abused Anakin's trust first when they forced him to break the Jedi Code and to betray the Republic by making him spy on Palpatine without a second thought on how he would feel about the assignment. Hell, they knew that it would be dangerous to put Anakin and Palpatine together but they shrugged it off and went forward anyway. The movies don't give a sense that the Jedi embraced Anakin because they are always questioning his role as the Chosen One and his servitude not to mentioned that they have ignored Anakn's problems stemming from his seperation from his mom. If they couldn't help him cope with the seperation nor try to free Shmi from slavery, then they weren't going to help him when they find out that he massacred the Tuskens. In fact, they will automatically label him as a Sith since they did the same with Dooku once they've witnessed his actions on Geonosis.

If Anakin is always going to Palpatine for guidance and support instead of either Obi-wan or the Council, then it shows that Anakin was always upset with the Jedi even before Palpatine started twisting his mind.

1)Murder is what Anakin did to the Jedi and to the Seperatists and 2) Anakin did NOT know what he was doing against the Tuskens because he was so upset over his mother's death that he just lashed out at the Tuskens like a wild animal and he couldn't stop until everything was dead. In the real world, the courts sometimes send convicted killers to mental asylums if they file an insanity plea because the courts know that the person had no intention of killing the victim.

That's why they call it "manslaughter".

When Palpatine mentioned that Anakin had "finally been given an assignment" when he was selected to be Padme's bodygaurd, he was indicating to Anakin that the Jedi don't trust him. Its always been like that for years which is why Anakin never confides with the Jedi.

I doubt it because Padme knows that the Jedi are too detached from the whole galaxy to even know how to help Anakin with his problems and after hearing about the Tusken massacre, she realises what Anakin said himself, that he could be "unpredictable" so she has no way of knowing what Anakin will do if she told on him.