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PT Did Anakin Misinterprit His Visions Of Padme? and did palpatine plant them?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SkywalkerJedi02, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. SkywalkerJedi02

    SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Knight star 1

    Jul 3, 2013
    What I mean did Anakin believe She would die because of what happened to His Mother and He was just paranoid, did palpatime inplant them in Anakins brain like a mind trick of some sort so he could sway him.

    I only say this because of the way she died of a broken heart due to His actions than child birth, just an interesting thought.
  2. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    There will be people here who can site all kinds of quotes and EU material on this, but just from the films I'd say that Palpatine played what was there for all it was worth rather than placing it there. But I'm not from the 'Palpatine planned every last detail of his rise to power' school of thought, so I may be wrong...
  3. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

    Jul 24, 2010
    'Palpatine planned every last detail of his rise to power' school of thought, so I may be wrong...

    neither am I.

    Sidious isn't a God.

    He uses events and circumstances and uses them to his advantage

    Lucas literally spells this out in TPM
  4. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    One of the most striking pieces of circumstantial evidence that Palpatine may have planted the visions is that he is aware of them ("Learn to know the Dark side of the Force and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.") Given Anakin's shock at this statement, I think it's clear that Anakin hadn't told Palpatine anything about his visions. But that in and of itself isn't conclusive -- since Palpatine may simply be able to perceive Anakin's dreams.

    I'm on the fence on this one. Palpatine is an opportunist, so I can see him co-opting this to turn Anakin. This, in particular, seems relevant to me because it seems as though Palpatine is primarily trying to turn Anakin by subverting his faith in the Jedi throughout the film -- Padmé is usually brought up secondarily.

    On the other hand, we know from ROTJ that Palpatine can see into the future. I do wonder if he couldn't have perceived her possible death and then sent Anakin the vision to manipulate him. The problem with this, of course, is that as far as I can tell, no one in the Star Wars universe has been shown to influence the visions of other Force users.
  5. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Reading Anakin's thoughts I can go with. Placing them there is a stretch imo.

    I don't think any of them can really predict the future. Difficult to see it is, always in motion... or something like that. I think they get glimpses of the way things may be heading.
    Aegon Starcaster likes this.
  6. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 3

    Jun 27, 2013
    Sidious had an uncanny ability for knowing things that he shouldn't know. Just as he knew Anakin was married in the first place, when Anakin never told him.
    Or how he knew that the jedi council ordered Anakin to spy for them. I guess the council's actions may have been a logical response, considering Sidious
    asked Anakin to openly spy on the council first, but still I don't think he planted those visions either.
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    In the novelization, he does provide a reason for that one:

    "Anakin, Padme was my Queen; I was her ambassador to the Senate. Naboo is my home. You of all people know how I value loyalty and friendship; do you think I have no friends among the civil clergy in Theed? Your secret ceremony has never been secret. Not from me, at any rate. I have always been very happy for you both."

    JEDI-RISING Force Ghost star 6

    Apr 15, 2005
    Anakin didn't see the full picture. As Yoda later said "Always in motion is the future." Anakin didn't see in his dreams that it was his actions that caused her death. Of course, if he had not had those dreams he might not have turned to the dark side. (so why would he have dreams of something that were cause BY the Dreams?)
  9. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    I'd say the dreams were caused by his deep set fears, much influenced by what happened to Shmi. So by that rationale, you could say that his fears ultimately led to Padme's death, amongst other things. Sound familiar?
    ILNP likes this.
  10. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 5, 2013
    Anakin, from the get-go, was fearful. We see that in TPM when Yoda and the rest of the council sense much fear within him. I think that his nightmares of the future that he had were planted, not by Palpatine, but by the natural fear he had inside him.

    With misinterpretation, along with what everyone else said, he didn't see the full picture. He just saw pieces and assumed the worst.
  11. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 12, 2012
    Anakin Skywalker saw a future he was helplessly propelled toward, which caused the very thing he feared would happen, that's the irony of it all. Literally the only sensible thing Anakin could have done after that first dream would be to lock himself into an escape pod and shoot himself out into space. She might have survived then. Might.
  12. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    Anakin wasn't very guarded with his thoughts when he was around the Chancellor.
    Palpatine was a confidante, not a threat.
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    Sidious planting the dreams might be a little too coincidental, but I have also always thought it was a little too coincidental that he knew to offer Anakin the power to stop death, right when Anakin would want that power the most.

    So I don't know.
  14. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    There is, maybe, a bit of Force "leakage" from Anakin in ROTS.

    He is chewed up and under imminent threat of destruction, like the bongo in TPM's underwater sequence.

    Or, like Jar Jar, he is a little "clumsy". It's futile him trying to portray a confident image to a person who knows him better than he knows himself.

    In the style of Lars_Muul...

    "You know, don't you?"
    "I beg your pardon, but what do you mean, 'naked'?"
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  15. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008
    I think Anakin had misinterpreted his visions of Padme. He had visions of her in the middle of giving birth. And he made an assumption that she was dying. Well, at least from my POV.
  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 31, 2012
    I don't think Palpatine planted the visions inside Anakin's head but I do believe he could read him like a book and knew just the right buttons to push. I don't like the idea that Palpatine had everything planned out perfectly from the first frame of TPM to the last frame of ROTS but I do think he was a great opportunist and knew how to turn even a defeat into an eventual victory.
  17. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    I agree with all of that Chiznuk. Don't think Palpatine's broad plan included Anakin at all to begin with. He certainly grabbed an opportunity with both hands when he saw it though.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  18. Mr. K

    Mr. K Moderator Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 1999
    Palpatine is the ultimate opportunist. He will twist anything within his grasp to help achieve power.
  19. ConnorLovesPadme

    ConnorLovesPadme Jedi Youngling

    Jul 9, 2013
    This doesn't really need a canon Force-based explanation. Basic human psych - Anakin had a major fear of losing people he cared about - resulting from losing Qui-Gon in childhood, to his mother in Ep2. Never mind the extra PTSD from Clone Wars combat.

    This means that he was afraid of losing Padme even regardless of Force precognition. So having a nightmare on the topic is perfectly typical of a human in such a situation.

    Add on to that the fact that Anakin DID have canonical precognitive abilities - from micro (his driving in Pod races) to macro (sensing his mother's danger). For the latter, from the ROTS script:

    ANAKIN: It was a dream.
    PADME: Bad?
    ANAKIN: Like the ones I used to have about my mother just before she died.
    I'm not aware of any canon notion that the nightmares were influenced by Sidious, and therefore, given that from the above info we can show perfectly valid reasons for them outside Sidious, Occam's Razor dictates that this specific item wasn't a nefarious Sith plot.
  20. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 5, 2013
    I don't think that Palps had brainwashed Anakin in a sense. He just planted tid-bits of information that he knew Anakin wanted to hear that would sway his allegiance with the Jedi.
  21. ConnorLovesPadme

    ConnorLovesPadme Jedi Youngling

    Jul 9, 2013
    I had to edit my post as I changed my opinion on the topic, but yes I do see we're you are coming from in palps planting pieces of information in Anakin.
    Dredalus likes this.
  22. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 23, 2000

    If PalpSidious didn't have everything planned out, then he wouldn't be in the position where he becomes the Emperor, would he?

    But one has to wonder how Sidious would know that Anakin is having visions of Padme dying? How did he know that Anakin is looking for a way to save her? More importantly, how did he know Anakin and Padme were married? Anakin never told PalpSidious any of those things and yet, Sidious already knows such details by force-reading his thoughts. It's not that hard to imagine that PalpSidious planted those dreams in Anakin's head to trick him into joining the dark side since Obi-wan did say that Anakin "allowed this dark lord to twist his mind until now when he became the very thing he swore to destroy".
  23. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 31, 2012
    I don't think that's true at all. I think the movies make it clear that Palpatine adjusts his plans as curveballs are thrown his way. A great example of this is in TPM when the queen not only escapes Naboo but also Darth Maul. Up to that point I think he was set on her signing the treaty and then eventually when the atrocities being committed on Naboo were revealed the Chancellor's regime would have been undermined and Palpatine would then be elected. But when the queen shows up on Coruscant he adjusts those plans and has her call for a vote of no confidence. Another example of course is Anakin himself. I really doubt he knew anything about the boy until he showed up with the queen. But once it is known that he is the Chosen One I think Palpatine decides what better way to really stick to the Jedi than to turn their savior to the dark side. I don't think there is anything wrong with a character who changes his plans to fit the situation and I think that's a much better character than one who plans everything out to the last detail.
    ConnorLovesPadme and Iron_lord like this.
  24. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 6, 2007
    For all we know, Palpatine had listening devices on Padme's balcony. He could have heard Anakin's whole nightmare explanation and know what his greatest fear was.
  25. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 5, 2013
    But I highly doubt that he would rely on that technology to know about Anakin's thoughts instead of using his force ability to see the future.