Saga Did Anakin truly bring Balance to the Force?

Not refuted. Disputed, at first.But then he's easily placated with what Palpatine says next.


The Sith lord taught his apprentice everything he knew. It's a contradiction to what Palpatine later says, only one person has ever known.

It doesn't validate the conveyance of intent by the work if it requires the author to explain the intent externally. If the patient dies due to negligence, intent to heal does not validate the loss of the patient.

The causes and effect of imbalance may obscure but they are at least stimulating. The supposed effect of restored balance is non existent in the movie that Lucas claims it to have been achieved. All he did was re-label the victory over Imperial leadership and destruction of the death star. He took the resolution of an extant plot and called it balance of the force, something it was NEVER conceived or designed to do.

It's almost like adding a maguffin to a plot that already works handsomely without it. And this time nobody in the three films knows or cares about it. Only the audience who've seen I-III cares. Apart from resolution of the plot, the realisation of balance to the force is just not there.

 

Alexrd, okay, but contradictory or not, it's not about the statements, any issue that is upsetting about what happens is derived from what happened, when Palps tells Anakin he hasn't got the answer yet, why would Anakin still do everything Palps asks of him considering Anakin decided to follow him bc he believed he already knew the answer and this is in the context of what he required Anakin to do, kill everyone

also, about GL and EU, it's not his problem you're right what does he care, but for all of us who did spend so much time in the EU, of course it's relevant to us when we look into the prophecy, all I really mean is I acknowledge the EU messes any notion of the prophecy up, so I just don't put much stock in the prophecy for myself bc of that

once again, I know you're not looking at the EU, that's fine, I do and all I'm saying is if the Sith are the only thing that can bring the Force in/out of balance when considering the EU that would be messed up bc evil is evil and I would hope the Force would care about it in the EU

Martoto77 okay, I think you misunderstood me about the different jobs, I was intending to show how talking to those people after the fact would only give extra insight to what and why they did, not change it in anyway, it def. wouldn't invalidate anything they actually did

h/e I see your other point when looking at the OT as it was originally before the PT came out, yea there was no concept of the prophecy back then and the PT put it into the OT and I would even agree it was unneeded really, but I would ask, now that the PT has been released and the fully story is PT and OT, and Lucas was the one that did/said both, how can we not consider it too?

 

I think he did but the Force went back out of balance, and here is where I sneak in a little theory.

The Force repeatedly falls in and out of balance, and it must be controlled in order to maintain the balance, specifically the dark side.

 

By watching the films and making our own minds up, as always.

 

Emperor Ferus, I would agree you're right, it seems the balance must fall in and out a lot, but doesn't that ruin the whole notion of the prophecy since it was so short term, prophecies are usually pretty long term if not forever

Martoto77, of course we all can do that, but using that def. we're all free to make w/e opinion we want regardless of any facts (I mean that in a general since, not this exact case or anything) and all this discussion will always be circular and then what's the point???

 

Ancient Whills wrote

They already said they won't touch what GL already established in his movies so I'm not worried. Point is GL has been pretty consistent on the identity of the Chosen One and more recently.

That's what they said, but what is it they are doing exactly that does worry me. Slept a night over the subject and realized this morning that a new interpretation of the Chosen One had already been embedded in the DNA of TFA, IMHO:

1. What value has a prophecy, supposedly ancient and made several centuries ago for the far away future, if the positive results only last for three decades and then there is again an imbalance in the Force? I didn't think it really made sense, but let dust settle on the issue, obviously not anticipating a continuation in TLJ.
2. In hindsight, it rather looks that a new and different interpretation of the prophecy was hinted early on in TFA with Lor San Tekka saying: "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force." The context was apparently to find Luke in an attempt to bring back balance that had already gotten lost again.

There’s a lot of debated points now, I’ve heard, about what Obi-Wan’s doing and what he’s saying in those scenes. Obi-Wan believes, I think at this point, that Luke is the Chosen One. It doesn’t mean Obi-Wan’s right. He feels that everybody believed Anakin was the Chosen One, and he thinks that he’s not because he joined the Sith. That’s not true. If you listen to George [Lucas], George will tell you that Anakin is the Chosen One.
http://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-three

Strange choice of words from the man who supervises every aspect of Rebels, e.g. "I've heard" and "I think". When you make the characters do or say things, shouldn't you "know"?
"If you listen to George..." - Well I do, but did the others at Lucasfilm listen to him?

Darth_Articulate wrote

The idea of canon is totalitarian. ... But if you want to measure legitimacy by *canon*, you have to refer to a totalitarian model where consistency is maintained. That maintenance is currently being performed by the Lucasfilm storygroup.

Wow, haven't yet seen such an example where totalitarian methods (i.e. rewriting history at the expense of others) have been played down like you did. Maintaining consistency equals maintaining continuity, NOT

1. shoplifting a unique concept introduced in the PT and cutting it off from the original context, thus
2. retroactively depriving both the PT and the OT of the genuine meaning of "the Chosen One" and a story twist
3. making the Star Wars creator George Lucas look in hindsight as if he didn't know what he was doing

 

No, he isn't. After Anakin refutes him, Palpatine begins to tell the tale of Darth Plagueis.

Nobody said only the Sith can do that. I'm saying that in the movies, the Sith were the ones causing imbalance. And their destruction helped restore the balance.

One can say that they didn't even listen to the movies. Believing that Luke is the Chosen One is purely illogical nonsense.

 

on the 1st part, you're it seems you're totally arguing over that earlier scene at the play of w/e it was, that's fine, I'm okay with what you're saying is happening there, I'm just taking that scene along with the later scene and saying how that then bugs me that Anakin keeps following the path once you find out it is a lie from Anakin's pov...

on the 2nd part, use my whole quote if you're gonna quote me, I understand you in context of only the movies that is what is shown, I specifically said in regards to using the EU, if other evils do draw the Force out of balance again that hurts the prophecy since it would be so short term, if evils other than the Sith don't draw the Force out of balance then the Force is sorta cruel and sucks in that it doesn't care about the galaxy in general...it's really a knock on the prophecy working in the EU even though I like the EU

 

But evil had different forms, it existed before the Chosen One's birth so it makes sense it will exist even after his death. The Jedi's role is to maintain the balance. Palpatines's concentration of power is what caused the imbalance, he blurred everything so much that it diminished the powers of the Jedi. With his death, the darkside no longer have supremacy over the light, it came back to the push and pull. I see the Force the same way I do with yin and yang, both sides needs to exist, one side should never take over the other. Then there is the internal balance when one person acknowledging his darker side but without letting it take over.

 

Normal fluctuations won't unbalance the Force. They're part of the natural order. As in our world, where there's a constant back-and-forth of dark and light.
Think of the universe as a person, such as yourself. Sometimes, you might get angry or afraid, which is perfectly natural and sometimes useful or even necessary. This is balanced out by your ability to detach and find inner peace when there's no need for passion. You get the best of both worlds, so to speak.
If the dark side is allowed to dominate your being, however, to gain a supreme grip that makes it nearly impossible for you to find moments of inner peace and be compassionate, then the balance has been disrupted.
That's what the Sith did to the GFFA. They drenched it with darkness.

 

okay, my question then is the idea that Palpatine and the Sith pushed it out of balance, is that simply bc Palps was in power over the govt then so he had too much control over the whole galaxy?

I haven't read anything prior to Rebellion era in the books, so Idk much about that time but I've heard of Jedi/Sith wars and many on both sides existing at certain times, I just don't get how Palps rule is any different in the sense of balance of the Force as opposed to the notion unbalance during a Jedi/Sith war for heaven sakes, and how it's balanced at the end of ROTJ unless it's bc no more Sith(dark side Jedi) remain

 

Alexrd wrote

One can say that they didn't even listen to the movies. Believing that Luke is the Chosen One is purely illogical nonsense.

Because a virgin birth is part of the Chosen One prophecy, I agree.

Unless...oh, my goodness, I hope that's not true... the nuCanon makers now have second thoughts whether the other protagonists were conceived in a natural way - or not.
The only reasonable explanation for Obi-Wan (pre-ANH) even considering for a moment that Luke might the Chosen One would mean that he believed that Luke had no physical father...

 

OutsiderJediSam: I wouldn't assume that the Force has never been out of balance before Palpatine. What the prophecy says is that the Chosen One will bring balance, not that he will be the first to do so in the history of the galaxy.
As for the state of things at the end of ROTJ, I see it as Anakin bringing balance by destroying the source of imbalance. This doesn't cause instantaneous, galaxywide balance, but things will balance themselves out as a result of his deed.

 

okay, good point on the before, that's why the prophecy is necessary, to finally balance the Force

also, how long will it take for things to balance out?? the longer it takes, the less influence his one deed has on the balancing...

and still, the whole nature of prophecy is it's fulfillment creates the intended result for a lengthy time period....centuries possibly forever, yet the prophecy doesn't really seem to do that in the EU (if you include it), or now ST...so it sorta chips away at the power of the prophecy doesn't it??

 

Lulu Mars wrote

This doesn't cause instantaneous, galaxywide balance, but things will balance themselves out as a result of his deed.

...although the prophecy should have come with a date of expiry after three decades.

As OutsiderJediSam observed "it seems the balance must fall in and out a lot, but doesn't that ruin the whole notion of the prophecy since it was so short term, prophecies are usually pretty long term if not forever?"

 

The thing is, Anakin turned to the dark side and helped Sidious wipe out the Jedi Order before he destroyed the Sith.
That could definitely be used as a... complication that necessitates a Plan B. You see, "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force". It seems like Luke's Jedi weren't strong enough to stop the Knights of Ren. If Anakin had destroyed the Sith before the Empire had a chance to rise, things would've been drastically different.

 

what is the Plan B in this statement? Luke or the ST?

if it's Luke, he helped Anakin fulfill balance, but that still doesn't answer the issues I raised moving onward from ROTJ

if it's the ST, then Anakin didn't bring balance to the Force...from your own statements he ruined his chance with his own actions and it now takes someone/something else....possibly Rey/new Jedi order, etc yet you seemed to be arguing that Anakin did bring balance to the Force

 

There's a difference between canon and validity. Canon is determined by an external, centralized authority and validity is subjective. The centralized authority *determines* what is and is not canon, but that does *not mean you're obligated to find it valid* if you don't wish. Since it's all fantasy, there's no harm in just sticking to *your* version of events. It may not be *canon* but it's perfectly valid. And if that means considering only what Lucas intended to be valid, so be it. That doesn't make it canon. Also, if you are doing that out of respect for him as the originator of the series, you may want to also consider respecting his judgement, which was to trust KK and Disney with the canon.

 

Not to mention the fact that Leia also exists and since they are ignoring the conception by midi-chlorians, it makes no sense to exclude her.

 

Lucas considered the books to be in a separate universe from the films, just like with "Star Trek" and all other franchises that have similar EU's. Gene Roddenberry didn't consider the Trek books and comics as part of the lore. Joss Whedon, creator of "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" and "Angel" has said the same thing of the books and most of the comics, except for the ones that he was involved with which gave us seasons 8 through 11 and season 6 of "Angel". As far as Lucas was concerned, the Sith were gone and balance was restored. There are no other Sith Lords around. Maul was supposed to die at the end of TCW, but it was pushed to "Rebels". Ventress was supposed to die in the show, but the cancellation just pushed it to a book. Lucas even said that if he did anymore films, that Luke wouldn't be married and Sidious would never have come back.

Because the Jedi's abilities haven't weakened and were aware of the Sith's presence in the past. And there was no Chosen One until he showed up.

Doesn't matter. We're told in AOTC that the shroud of the dark side has fallen with the start of the war. At the end of ROTS, the Jedi are dead or in hiding. The Sith have taken over with the Empire. In ROTJ, the Sith are dead and the war will soon be over and Luke will train new Jedi. Ergo, the Force is in balance.

Even in the old EU, the Force was put back into balance. It was even stated as such. What happened after ROTJ and going through "Legacy" didn't change that. Even with the other Sith that had turned up, they weren't unbalancing the Force.

Snoke isn't a Sith Lord and neither is Kylo Ren. And going by what has been established, the Force isn't out of balance.

Right there is it. Evil will always exist in the hearts of people because evil is driven by notions of greed, selfishness, fear, anger, hate and jealousy. So long as there is a force of good fighting for the good, then the light will never die. If Luke, Leia and Rey die or turn, then the Force will fall out of balance again.

Right. That was the byproduct of Anakin running away from his destiny because he couldn't make a sacrifice of his wife and his own happiness. Because he couldn't take that leap of faith that Padme might live regardless of what he saw, he brought untold suffering to the galaxy. But then he is given a second chance by his son who shows him the way, by loving him unconditionally and sparing his life. The Jedi Purge was just a byproduct of his greed.

 

darth-sinister okay man, it's not GL's fault, all I mean is the events of the EU muck up the concept of the prophecy being fulfilled...prophecy fulfillment is supposed to extend for a long long time, and in the EU it just didn't

and if getting rid of the Sith in ROTJ is what balances the Force how does more showing up not unbalance it??

this is a personal opinion, but Snoke and Kyle might as well be Sith...it's all just terms for dark side user...I'm not concerned with the diff with a thief and a murderer, they're both evil and criminals and upset the balance of good

and if the only evil that can unbalance the Force is Sith then the Force is not very caring about the larger galaxy

 

It isn't just the presence of the Sith. It is the actions caused by the Sith during the era of the films, that causes the imbalance. The Force was in balance during the era of Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Freedan Nadd and Darth Bane. It fell out of balance during the rise of Darth Sidious and is restored with his and Vader's deaths. The existence of Exar Kun's ghost, Palpatine's clones, the Dark Jedi, Darth Krayt, Darth Cadeus, Lumiya, the True Sith and so on weren't causing the Force to be unbalanced.

Take the Inquisitors in "Rebels". They're Force users, with one of them being a Jedi Temple guard who went rogue. Capable warriors one and all, but no match for a fully experienced Jedi like Ahsoka. And nowhere near as powerful as Vader. In "The Siege Of Lothal", Ezra and Kanan can both feel Vader's presence before seeing him and note that is different from the Grand Inquisitor's presence. When Kanan fought the Grand Inquisitor, he was barely able to hold his own at first. By the time of their final fight, he had become sufficient in defeating him. But against Vader, he got his ass handed to him. And that was against someone who wasn't at his full peak. The Sith were way more powerful and deadly. Even when faced with the Nightsisters and Nightbrothers, the Sith proved too much for them when working together.

The Witches of Dathomir were not strong enough to take over the galaxy. Thus the Force is not threatened by them. But Sidious, a Sith Lord who blurred the lines between good and evil, he was a major problem. Snoke hasn't done that. What little we know, he just organized the First Order into following the Empire's model and turned them loose.

 

so the argument for Palps and Vader are the only 2 Sith able to upset the balance of the Force is their power? the fact that these 2 guys are more powerful than the resistance they face in Force duels? more powerful than the time when hundreds of Sith existed? or is it simply bc they were the 2 who just so happened to get in control of the govt? so, what would happen to the prophecy if a new dark Jedi did take over the govt?

 

No, the consequences of their machinations and actions help bring the Force out of balance. In the saga, the people who do it are the Sith (Sidious, Maul, Tyranus, Vader). It doesn't matter who they are, what they name themselves or what organization they are part of.

 

okay I can accept it just happened to be the Sith, not that it had to be the Sith and only the Sith could affect the Force past, present or future...

I still ask though, what specific consequences/actions unbalances the Force? just taking over the govt? being "more evil?" more powerful? all this is in regards to why not unbalanced before or after?

 

What is dark side? Anger, fear, agression, greed, lust, etc... Now take the actions based/fueled by all that in such a massive scale that makes it take over the light side.