Saga Did Anakin truly bring Balance to the Force?

Oh, you mean like these thoughts?

"The core of the Force, I mean you got the dark side and the light side. One is selfless, one is selfish. And you want to keep them in balance."

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. And we all have those two sides of us, and we have to make sure those two sides of us are in balance."

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I - and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter - is the balance between good and evil."

 

I've never actually seen those quotes so thank you for pointing them out. I guess I was confusing the Light Side with the Jedi and the Dark Side with the Sith, which is a slightly different thing. The Jedi were ostensibly keepers of the Force, period. Both Light and Dark sides. However in the actual story, in their last days, their inability to detect the Sith, engendered by their hypocritical attempt to ignore all things Dark Side, brought them off balance. So in those waning days of the Jedi, the Force was brought out of balance not by the Dark Side, but by the Light Side. There was too much Light Side activity. The Jedi were no longer keepers of the Force itself, as they once were, but merely keepers of the Light Side of Force. When you ignore evil, you make yourself it's open target.


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Anakin perverted the Force and attempted to justify it's use for his own purposes. The prophecy of bringing balance has to be a lie. I'm not sure to what end that brings anybody by upholding the prophecy as true but its not good.

 

The prophecy is true.

"The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the Chosen One, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999.

The prophecy never said that Anakin had to do anything other than take Palpatine out, at a particular point in time. Any choice that he made regarding betraying the Jedi and becoming a Sith, was of his own doing.

 

No. They were not hypocrites nor did they ignore the dark side. They acknowledged it and didn't give into it. The Sith, on the other hand, embraced the dark side. And in turn (through their actions) made it grow and take over the light side. This brought the Force out of balance. That's why the destruction of the Sith is a requirement to restore balance to the Force.

 

I'd really strike a balance (no pun in intended ) between both of these points.

The Force wasn't thrown off balance by the Jedi - to imply that would imply that the Jedi were the villains and this is just factually not the case. However, they had lost their way, and the Jedi Order were the source of a tragedy. They became insular and dogmatic, and so thus made the Sith's conquest that bit easier. This has been discussed at length over on the PT forums - so I won't rehash it all.

Maybe we should re-clarify the scope of the discussion here because I think there is a divide between people who are arguing balance wasn't restored because of what came post-ROTJ. Others are arguing that the story of the six films (i.e. Saga as envisioned by Lucas) doesn't credibly portray balance restored. Still more are arguing in the context of the new canon etc.

 

Yes, you're right. The Jedi became not evil, but weak. Their fault was allowing the Force to fall out of balance. The Sith did the pushing. Both had a hand in the imbalance.

As for my take on balance in the saga, I think Anakin *brought balance to the Force with his sacrifice, but obviously could not be the one to *maintain the balance since he had to die. That task fell upon Luke, who failed via Ben Solo. And that's where we currently are in the saga.

 

[accidental double post]

 

Discussed and argued against at length too.

Which fault was that, exactly? The imbalance that exists was created by the Sith. They are the sole cause. They exploited everyone and their actions brought the whole galaxy into darkness. To blame the Jedi for it is like blaming the police if someone robbed your house. It's the robber's fault. The police would only have responsibility if they were aware of the robber and did nothing. But that's not the case, since the Jedi (unlike the audience) didn't know who the Sith Lords were. Once they had reason for suspicion, and eventually discovered their true identity, they acted accordingly.

 

I think you'll find that in reality, trends in crime are often the responsibility of those with the job of preventing it and protecting the potential victims of it.

The will, the method and the capacity of those with that duty has a direct effect on the flow of those trends.

Individual crimes are the responsibility of the criminal, of course. But circumstances, including the effectiveness of the police tasked to prevent crime, are also equally relevant in the wider context of society.

 

I have already said that the Jedi are not the villains nor responsible for throwing the force out of balance. I feel they have some role to play in their own downfall due to the dramatic way they are presented in the PT. We can agree to disagree on that if you like, but I am in agreement with the basic points you are arguing here.

Which fault was that, exactly? The imbalance that exists was created by the Sith. They are the sole cause. They exploited everyone and their actions brought the whole galaxy into darkness. To blame the Jedi for it is like blaming the police if someone robbed your house. It's the robber's fault. The police would only have responsibility if they were aware of the robber and did nothing. But that's not the case, since the Jedi (unlike the audience) didn't know who the Sith Lords were. Once they had reason for suspicion, and eventually discovered their true identity, they acted accordingly.[/quote]

As per Martoto77 your analogy with the police is highly misleading. Misjudgement, error or incompetence in the police force can and do play a role in the prevalence of crime. Otherwise what would be the point of training up and improving policing methods in the first place?

Just like the close-mindedness of the Jedi played a role in allowing the Sith to achieve their aims more easily - and of course the Jedi intentions were good, I'm not disputing that.

 

The Jedi may have made mistakes in serving the Republic's will, but I put ultimate blame on them. The Sith had a thousand years of planning and changing their methods to force their desired outcome. The Jedi weren't prepared for this type of enemy, the Old Sith had different methods from Sidious. I do believe some Jedi were arrogant and we're blinded by fighting the Republic's War. Palpatine controlled and manipulated both sides.

 

Not saying otherwise. I'm arguing the only point we disagree on.

How exactly was the police (or in this case, the Jedi) incompetent? Which errors did they make? With the information they had, there was no way of knowing about the Sith's survival or who the Sith Lord was. Once they had suspicion and evidence, they acted upon it as the movies show. So, I ask again, how exactly are they at fault?

How/when were the Jedi close minded to begin with?

 

Errors the Jedi made to the Sith's advantage:

• Gave insufficient attention to the key role Anakin would play in the destruction of the Sith. There is ample evidence in AOTC and ROTS to show the council was determined to limit Skywalker and his potential. This is reflected in Anakin's own disdain.
• Failure to recognize and/or prevent Anakin's slide into the dark side - Obi-Wan was aware of the relationship with Padmé but didn't take measures to resolve it until it was too late.
• Became too closely involved in the politics of the Republic, to extent that Mace felt confident enough that the Jedi could 'take control' of the Senate in ROTS following his duel with Palpatine. They had become far more than simply counsel - they were becoming a political, rather than spiritual, power.

Evidence of close-mindedness:

• Reluctance to train Anakin despite what he stood for - the evidence was stacked in Anakin's favour from the beginning.
• Overly stoic philosophy which ruled against any attachment - at the expense of compassion and an understanding of the importance of love. They had become closed off to the idea of redemption. Think of the Lost Twenty and ultimately the philosophy of "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"
• Their role during the Clone Wars was increasingly militaristic - no longer did they have the close harmony with the Force, but rather the Force was merely utilised as a tool, one used to fight and win battles on the political stage. They had lost touch with the Living Force.

True, they did act once they had suspicion, but to do so by spying and eventually killing a helpless opponent (Mace's duel with Palpatine) was not in the spirit of the Jedi, nor in the spirit of the Republic. This only exacerbated Anakin's fall, and a further excuse for the Sith to discredit the Jedi in the eyes of the people.

 

Being blameless and completely clear from any responsibility for something going wrong is simply not human. The Jedi, though not the ones chiefly responsible for the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Sith, had just as many flaws as anyone else. The mentality and practice of assigning 100% of blame to the villain is disturbing in art and dangerous in life. If you could go back in time and kill Hitler as a child, I tend to think someone else would just take his place.


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I think there is certainly a danger of driving the "good vs evil" theme into overdrive here - the whole narrative of the PT is built up on the idea of essentially good, but flawed institutions (the old republic, Jedi order etc.) These were used to the Sith's advantage. These were essential to the Sith's victory, and at the heart of Palpatine's plan.

Back on topic - the key point is that Anakin restored the force to balance, the Sith threw it out of balance, and the Jedi played a role in making the Grand Plan easier to accomplish.

 

The Council never limited Anakin's potential. He only thinks that because of Palpatine's manipulations. Obi-wan tells us outright what Anakin's problem is and it is that he never took his training seriously enough before his mother's death. His connection to the Force had made him arrogant and as such, he started slacking off. This is why he isn't able to see things more clearly when it came to his mother and it is why Dooku spanked him hard. Afterwards, he did make an effort to be better, but the Council never limited him. They gave him a Padawan and had made him a Knight. They gave him all kinds of assignments as a general in the Grand Army of the Republic. In ROTS, they weren't going to make him a Master because Palpatine wanted him to be one, in order to create a divide between them. Anakin's greed is why he said that he wanted more, a sign of his turning to the dark side.

In AOTC, he was still a Padawan who had a ways to go before becoming a Knight. In TCW, he had done better than he had been as he had made it through. In ROTS, they did see it which is why they were having trust issues and Mace had come to believe that Anakin could earn that trust back, after telling him about Palpatine and by staying at the Temple. He blew it, not the Council. And Obi-wan did know, but he didn't resolve the matter because he thought that she could help him in a way that he couldn't. He turned a blind eye after figuring it out, in the hopes that she could get him to open up and do for him, what he couldn't for him.

They were the only ones outside of the Senate that had the means to root out Palpatine's conspirators and make sure that the Senate nominated appropriate replacements. If they hadn't gotten involved, a second war would start.

And they were right to not want to train him as he goes on to prove.

The Lost Twenty were Jedi who quit. That doesn't mean that they all went to the dark side. And the reason that they didn't believe in redemption is because no Jedi-turned-Sith had ever come back before. And as to compassion, they had compassion. That's unconditional love. Something they taught all members.

The Living Force is that which makes up life. It makes the Jedi intuitive to each other, able to sense thoughts and emotions. The only thing that they did wrong was choosing to fight to win, at the expense of knowing how to win.

 

Granted - but if they were so determined to support Anakin and develop his potential - why jeopardize all of that by placing him at the heart of the disagreements between the Chancellor and the Jedi Council? They did not know Palpatine was the Sith Lord until the end, but they were fully aware that the "Dark Side of the force surrounds the chancellor".

I don't really see the logic in Obi-Wan's actions as you describe them - given the importance of Anakin's destiny, why would Obi-Wan be so close minded as to think that his wife could settle everything for him? This just discredits the Jedi further.
The fact that Mace and the order distrust Anakin is entirely my point - they had no faith in the prophecy. When they make remarks such as "a prophecy that misread could have been" - I don't perceive this as wise caution, I perceive this as indecisiveness - a lack of willingness to trust in the Force and hear it's calling.

I agree essentially with what you're saying. But for Mace to have killed Palpatine (and thus subsequently taken control of the republic) would have destroyed the Prophecy - I guess this is fine, but we have to be willing to accept therefore that the Jedi never believed in the 'Chosen One' and hence never believed in Anakin. In my view, the whole premise of the PT then starts to fall apart. Anakin would be driven to hatred of the Jedi by Mace's act, and so the Sith would have lived on, ideologically, in Anakin.

If we are to take the PT in isolation, then this is correct. But Anakin goes on to fulfill his prophecy and destroy the Sith, the very enemy the Jedi seek to destroy. Indeed, the very fact they do not want to train him only serves to show how the Jedi do not place any trust in the will of the Force, which, as the saga shows, is working through the prophecy of the Chosen One.

Fair point about the Lost Twenty. Regarding redemption - it is again in relation to their faith in the prophecy - the Jedi could not bring themselves to have faith in the supremacy of the prophecy over their own per-conceived notions of the impossibility of redemption.

Compassion is indeed unconditional love. Pitiful mercy towards others. But it is also empathy, a sort of co-suffering. The Jedi's pursuit of it was riddled in hypocrisy. I find few, if any examples of this sort of empathy on a personal level. Obi-Wan is too stoic to truly feel compassion for Anakin - he is an instructor, a teacher only. He is never truly a mentor - to say nothing for the dogma of the Council. "Dreams pass in time", "Teach yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose" - these are platitudes which show no compassion but moral sterility and detachment.

The choice to fight to win was not their error - their error was not knowing quite what they were fighting for. They were fighting to preserve the status quo, the old Jedi Order, the old republic - institutions which had proven their weaknesses in a galactic war that had killed millions. The Jedi, to not have learned from such an experience, were in grave error. They fought for good - yet they assumed they knew all that which good truly was.

 

Two things.

1. Palpatine is the one that caused this by taking actions that he knew full well would cause the Council to do something like this. Anakin and the Council both walked right into his trap.

2. As Obi-wan said, the assignment was given to Anakin because Palpatine trusts him and the Council had hoped that he would be objective when it came to dealing with whatever he discovers. Remember, he does his duty by telling Mace that Palpatine is Sidious.

Because Obi-wan had started to develop an attachment to Anakin and he had believed that going against the normal traditions of the Jedi Order, would help.

They distrust Anakin because he gives them reason to distrust him with his actions. He has lost their trust and this is why there is friction between them. And when he turns to the dark side, that trust is shattered.

Anakin has to decide what is important; his attachment or his sense of duty to the Republic. He chose his attachment which is why he left the Temple.

That's why Lucas says that Qui-gon was right and wrong to have taken Anakin away. That he made a dangerous decision in doing so and that it only turns out right due to a number of choices that resulted in him fulfilling his destiny. It comes at a price.

When Luke and Leia are born, they believe that one or the other might have been the Chosen One. Which is why they have them secluded away. And they also believe that the prophecy might have been misread. They still trust in the Force, they just don't trust in Anakin.

Obi-wan has compassion for Anakin so long as he has remained as a Jedi. He believed that Anakin was strong enough to overcome the disadvantages in his life, but in doing so, he blinded himself to the truth, that he couldn't help him. So when Anakin turns to the dark side, he is broken by it.

The choice to fight to win was the problem, because they decided that the only way to stop the Sith was to win the war. How they win was important, because the only way to win against the Sith is to turn them against each other. Not by destroying them outright. The good that they fought to protect was democracy, peace and justice. As Obi-wan said, the formation of a symbiant circle is important and that they needed the Republic as much as they needed the Jedi. What affected one, affects the other. They just couldn't see that they were fighting out of fear of having it torn down by the Sith.

 

I agree mostly with what you are saying here.
The key differences, I think, are likely the following.

1. I think the dependence of the Jedi on the republic, the symbiosis you speak of, was an inherent weakness, and not a strength. Ultimately it pegged the Jedi to the Republic's downfall.
2. The Jedi Council were not 'wrong' to take Anakin for training and I think any argument of this type is contradictory. The Jedi were right to see the prophecy alive in Anakin Skywalker. They were wrong to not fully embrace it and distance themselves from its significance.
3. The dogma of the Jedi was manifold - you speak of Anakin's attachment. You also admit to Obi Wan's attachment. The Jedi had, hypocritically, become attached to their own perceived notions. Their philosophy of zero-attachment had in fact become a contorted attachment of its own. Anakin's dilemma was not choosing between his attachment or the Republic. He believed in making the republic great again - that might have been subsidiary to Padmé but he still believed in it, just as Palpatine believed in his own sense of totalitarianism.

The sense of trust is important. That lack thereof was a result of the council's inability to deal with the dilemma Anakin presented. They were too detached from emotion to resolve Anakin's difficulties. Anakin was passionate, forward-looking. He sought to make change, to see and shape the world, almost as a child. This did not inevitably decree his fall to the Dark. But the Council were too backward looking to recognize they could shape such thoughts to the benefit of the galaxy. So instead Luke, with his own sense of spirit and faith, had to do it for them, decades later.

 

For now it is not confirmed if Anakin gave balance to the force or not
The George Lucas's words are no longer canon now

 

Anakin fulfilled the condition of the prophecy, which is heavily implied to require the destruction of the Sith.
The Sith's ideology lives on in TFA, however - which is frustrating in the extreme because it ruins a good deal of the 6 film saga's main theme. What is the overall story of SW now, I wonder? Lucas envisioned a finite tale, but who knows what the future holds.

That said, I'm still optimistic.

 

I'm optimistic that the larger theme of the saga is something along the lines of accepting that evil has a purpose and thus can never be destroyed. Learning to put it (and keep it) in it's place, as opposed to getting rid of it should be the hallmark of maintaining balance.

The Jedi lived for ages under the false impression that the Sith had died off. The secrecy on the Sith's part was maintained in part to make sure the Jedi were off the defensive as much as possible. Now that the Sith are destroyed, their monopoly on the Dark Side is also destroyed and thus the Dark Side is now free to influence the more adult society. I think the fruit of all this will be learning to accept the existence of evil in order to keep it from taking over.

 

Who said that the CREATOR of Star Wars and all his concepts in the films (Jedi, Sith, force, etc) including the Chosen One, who the Chosen One was and how he brought balance to the Force is no longer canon? The films are still canon. Seriously, who is trying to turn them into EU now? You have to be kidding me.

Just because Anakin, the Chosen One, destroyed the Emperor and brought balance to the Force at that point in the story doesn't mean the Force cannot ever come out of balance again. The Force is an energy field created by all living things therefore it continues on. There will still be Force adepts who choose to use the light side or the dark in the generations that follow both Luke and Kylo. The current Sith at the end of ROTJ were destroyed. The Sith teachings still exist and could be found by others to be utilized against the light.

Since someone brought up the Lost Twenty, I was thinking about this and Dooku today. The Council was so adamant that Anakin not be trained because he was "too old" and most see the Council's view as justified because of his later turn to the dark side. However, Dooku is a perfect example of the Jedi philosophy that doesn't always work the way it appeared it was supposed to. Dooku was trained from birth which is their requirement correct? But he still turned to the Dark Side regardless of their teachings/training and code. So Anakin's age never should have been a factor in their refusal to train him, nor should he have been subject to their derision and lifelong mistrust when one of their own who was trained "the right way" (according to them) had already became a Sith.

 

slooooooooow down, there! Eaaaaasy there! Pretty sure wobbits was saying that Lucas's words in interviews, etc. was no longer canon, not the events of the actual films. Everything that occurs in the films are canon. Their interpretation is open to others and, in fact, always has been. Any part of a work of art that isn't made explicit within the art itself is open to interpretation by anyone. Artists don't actually own the canon of their art. It's just that while they're creating it, the canon in their minds helps determine what actually makes it into the art. If it was never explicitly said in the movies that Anakin was, after all was said and done, The Chosen One, then it is up for interpretation, regardless of the author's intention. I prefer to think that Anakin did indeed bring balance, because otherwise it considerably weakens his whole journey, but that preference doesn't make it canon.