Lit Did Anakin/Vader losing body parts still make him weaker in the Force?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    Sometime in the PT era, I remember Lucas saying in a couple interviews and/or DVD commentaries (and I think then reinforced in some Legends EU, like Lumiya in LOTF) that Anakin/Vader losing his arm in AOTC and more body parts in ROTS made him lose midichlorians and weaker in the Force, never able to 100% fulfill his potential. Presumably Luke too, because he lost his hand.

    This never sat right with me. It should be concentration of midichlorians, not total number... and even then, having more midichlorians should only make it "easier" to master the Force... but that somebody else with a lower midichlorian count should still be able to reach the same level (or higher) but would just require to put more effort into his/her training.

    I think the New EU has moved away from this, but I'm not sure. Does anyone know for sure? And were Lucas's comments ever made officially canon in Legends? What are your opinions on this topic?
  2. MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2017
    star 3
    I think midichlorians are still canon because it's PT therefor emovie canon. Can never be not canon.

    However, does midichlorians create force sensitivity to the Force or Force sensitivity allows midichlorians to invade the body (like parasites)? Not known at this point. Chicken and egg really.

    Now, My thinking is losing body parts definitely cost him Force sensitivity wise, but not because of lack of midichlorians, but the pain associated with it. It's like Jacen said, flow walking can't change the past, but if you remember getting hurt, what happens in the present? I think it's more psychological in nature.
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  3. Daneira Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2016
    star 3
    If it's just the amount of midicholorians and they're based on how much body you have, I'm sure a great whale would have more midicholorians than Yoda. Anakin's midichlorians were off the scale when he was 9 years old. Adult limbless Vader has at least as much body as 9 year old Anakin.
  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    While Legends Vader certainly seemed weaker post-ROTS, the new material has pretty much gone the 'screw da the midichlorians, Vader's a killing machine' route.
  5. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I know midichlorians are still canon... that wasn't what I was asking.

    I'm asking if that old Lucas interpretation of the relationship between midichlorians, body parts, and potential Force power, was still "canon" or not.
  6. MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2017
    star 3
    I think I made my opinion on midichlorians clear enough. Now to answer your other question. You have to ask CEO of Disney Bob Iger.
  7. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    No, he's still weaker.

    Compare what ROTS and Clone Wars Anakin could do to what Vader does in the movies and comics. In terms of speed, agility, power and overall combat ability, Vader is inferior.

    Not to say that Vader is weak by any means. But the unsuited Anakin Skywalker was by far the better fighter.

    The Force is generated by life. By living tissue. By flesh and blood. The more of your flesh and blood you lose, the more your Force potential diminishes. But that wasn't the only thing that diminished Vader. It's the massive third degree burns that left him in perpetual pain and the severe damage to his lungs that left him permanently dependent on a respirator. As powerful as he was, Vader was still a broken shadow of his former self.
  8. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    1. Unsuited Anakin lost more than Suited Vader. Being able to flip and twirl doesn't mean much if you lose.
    2. Fighting ability =/= potential in the Force
  9. MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2017
    star 3
    1. Huh?
    2.It doesn't matter in the end. Vader was able to hunt down all the Jedi not at the Jedi Temple massacre all on his own. I mean, how are we to refuse this quote? We see Darth Vader taking apart all his opponents. Are we going supposed to say Hey if only Darth Vader didn't lose his arms and legs, he might kill the fugitives Jedi in 1 minute instead of 10?
  10. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I'm not sure what you're talking about? I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote.
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  11. MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan

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    May 14, 2017
    star 3
    1. Why would unsuited Darth Vader (Anakin) lose more than Suited Darth Vader?
    2. I mean I was confused. Do you have a mean of measuring force potential we all don't' know about?
  12. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    You're including Vader Down in that assessment V?

    The other wildcard here is a dark side power boost. Strictly on light side basis, Anakin trumps Vader, but Vader seems to get a lot from 'power of the dark side'
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Jun 11, 2017
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  13. La Calavera Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2015
    star 4
    I would say he just lost his potential to reach God Status. Anakin was still far from it in the PT, but if he hadn’t been made more machine than man with severe health issues, he could have probably evolved to a point where literally no one could touch him.

    That being said, as Vader he certainly continued his training, faced more enemies, gained more experience and improves his Force skills. Frankly, I don’t think 23-year old Anakin could wipe out entire platoons without receiving any damage like Vader did in the comics.
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  14. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 3
    This explains why Suit Vader had to bulk up with PEDs. Another thing to consider is BBQ Vader was like a piece of meat that was pan-seared, keeping all the juices and Midichlorians in. The back of his pants said "Juicy", but the cape hid it.

    Don't really want to investigate what Lucas said through out the years, but I've just always gone with concentration over sum. PPM. Like a force user's white blood cell count. As long as they didn't contract HIV, they were usually good. That also explains the no relationship rule.
  15. vncredleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2016
    star 4
    I would argue Vader is not exactly weaker just limited in some ways making him focus on other areas. Like with speed being limited to just a boost here and there he had to be more of a tank so he trained with Soresu and became more viable defensively. I think Vader and Anakin are equal just for different reasons.
  16. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I was saying that he did.

    And Force potential doesn't have much to do with fighting ability.
  17. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4

    Yeah I'd say so. There really isn't anything Vader does in Vader Down that Anakin couldn't do. But yeah, the Dark Side certainly allows a Force-Wielder to access their full potential much faster.

    "Quicker, easier, more seductive"

    Unburned Anakin had his full potential, but couldn't access all of it, because of his Light-Side orientation and lack of future experience. With the Light Side, it takes a lot longer to fully realize potential.

    Whereas Vader has significantly reduced potential due to his injuries, but because of his Dark-Side orientation and twenty years of Sith training he's able to access all of his remaining potential. But that remaining potential probably puts him close to what he had as uninjured Anakin. Close, but not equal, in my opinion. I still put unsuited Anakin Skywalker as superior to suited Darth Vader. I'll try to find some GIF's and screencaps to illustrate my point later.
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  18. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
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    Jul 24, 2005
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    [IMG]

    "Life creates it. Makes it grow. Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter".

    The Life that generates the Force =/= biology.

    As for Vader, I don't doubt that he's not what he could have been had he not sustained his injuries... but he's nevertheless superior to the version of himself he dismissed, without irony, as "but a learner".

    The NU, so far, has understood that.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jun 11, 2017
  19. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    You would think the Yoda arc would have made it pretty clear that "life" is a pretty expansive, immaterial, concept in this quote.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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  20. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    This "the power of a Jed is literally tied to their body mass" argument has never not been ridiculous. 8-}
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  21. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 2
    That's only because you don't recognize the immense power and wisdom of Beldorion the Splendid!
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  22. The Positive Fan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2015
    star 4
    True, but that's not the fault of those who ask the question. It's a logical thing to wonder about in light of the existence of midichlorians.

    Sam Witwer once had some interesting things to say about midichlorians on RFR. I might try to dig up a link to the episode later if I remember. My very rough paraphrase is that a lot of fans misunderstand the role of midichlorians; their presence is not a direct indicator or measure of Force power or Force potential (though a surface reading of the TPM dialogue might imply this). They are a communication channel between the Force and the Force-user, making them more attuned to its will. The greater a midichlorian count, the more "directly" the Force can communicate its will to an individual. This would matter greatly to the Jedi, who strive to act in harmony with the Force, and not one bit to the Sith, whose own will trumps all. Vader can lose limbs and remain incredibly "strong in the Force" in terms of his powers, but lose a degree of his ability to act "in harmony" with the Force (which, being a Sith, wouldn't matter anyway).

    Admittedly I have not yet rewatched TPM with this interpretation in mind so I don't know how well it works but Sam's comments were definitely very logical and I recall him backing them up with evidence from TPM and, I think, TCW's Mortis arc. I guess I'll try to find it because I'm interested now :p
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  23. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4
    It's about being more machine than a man. For using the Force, you need flesh and blood. If you lose the majority of your body parts, your overall potential would've weakened.

    AotC Anakin and ESB Luke just lost their hands, they didn't turn into ''more machine'' than a man. So they keep the majority of their potential.

    Maul also lost ''half'' of his potential after TPM I guess, he wasn't more than a machine, but it was more than a single hand loss.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Jun 12, 2017
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  24. Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2016
    star 4

    Yoda: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

    So no, losing parts of his body would not have made Vader weaker in the force. An arm is just "crude matter" or mass. Vader's head and torso alone is more mass than Yoda anyway.

    Also if what you said was true, Palpatine would probably have started eating over nine thousand pies a day to massively increase his body mass and force power. He'd become Darth Creosote [face_sick]
    Last edited by Blackhole E Snoke, Jun 12, 2017
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  25. SilentGuy66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2014
    star 4
    I see it all very simply. Vader had both his arms and legs amputated and was set on fire, there's got to be ramifications for that, cybernetics or no. It'd have been very cheap if Vader got up off that table and Palatine said:

    "Well we spent all night rebuilding you after your hole body was burned in lava, now you're good as new"
    "So you're telling me that half hour Lightsaber battle was for nothing...."
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