Lit Did Anakin/Vader losing body parts still make him weaker in the Force?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. Darth Pipes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
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    This never really bothered me and I thought this made sense. Vader is weaker in the Force because well, he really is more machine than man. All his limbs are mechanical and he's being kept alive by a machine. His connection to the Force, while still very powerful, has been diminished by this.

    Maul for that matter should be weaker in the Force. His entire lower body was replaced by a machine and he doesn't even have the ability to produce life anymore.
    Last edited by Darth Pipes, Jun 12, 2017
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  2. Daneira Jedi Knight

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    Jun 30, 2016
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    According to this article, Palpatine does need to eat a lot of food. It speculates that his force lightning burns 120,000 calories. That's a lot of hawkbat eggs!
    Last edited by Daneira, Jun 12, 2017
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  3. Yunzabit Jedi Knight

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    Lords of the Sith said Vader's connection to the Force strengthened. I don't have a quote or a page number though :(
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  4. Nobody145 Jedi Master

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    My interpretation was that some of Vader's power was diverted to keeping himself alive, which is why he never overthrew the Emperor himself. Kind of like Cable (from the X-men) who should be one of the most powerful characters but his power is busy fighting off a disease. Like most people would have just died on Mustafar, but Vader's rage kept him going and it sustained him for the next few decades. Not so much less limbs mean less power but rather even with the life support equipment Vader had to force himself to keep going.

    I vaguely remember that Lucas statement, and I guess it kind of applies, as in RotS Palpatine says outright Vader will be more powerful than either himself or Yoda, yet Vader never overthrows Palpatine and instead has to wait for Luke. Vader is definitely a slower combatant than Anakin was, partially due to the limbs, but of course still very dangerous. Though there's also the mental scars from losing to Obi-wan that might be holding Vader back a bit. I think Luceno's post-RotS novel dealt with that idea, that Palpatine had to keep Vader engaged rather than just brooding over his defeat and everything else he's lost.

    Although due to having no natural limbs left Vader also can't use Force lightning probably, and the life support equipment also left him vulnerable to Force lightning. That's probably another reason why Vader never quite moved against the Emperor.

    Its also debatable if Vader's internal conflict slowed him down a bit. Vader is definitely one of the most powerful Force users ever, but he could have been better still. If Anakin had stayed with the light and without those injuries he probably would have been better. Despite everything Vader did, he never quite gave himself completely to the darkside, there was still enough for Luke to reach him. Whether that held him back from being full on mwa-ha-ha like Palpatine, who knows.
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  5. Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight

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    Jun 27, 2016
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    Yes
    Vader is strong but his suit limits him so much Vader is more a duelist so he rarely uses the Force in his fights

    When did you see Vader use force lightning? Or jumping with acrobatics as he did on Mustafar?

    He had potential but that potential lost him in Mustafar For something Sidious considers Vader as a failure
    Last edited by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Jun 13, 2017
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  6. MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan

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    May 14, 2017
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    If I were Sidious I would have left Vader on Mustafar to burn.
    It's not like he doesn't have backups Dark Siders.
  7. Daneira Jedi Knight

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    Jun 30, 2016
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    Who, even perfectly functioning bodies, still weren't as powerful as Vader.


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  8. Darth Dnej Jedi Knight

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    Apr 27, 2013
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    Absolutely. The force flows through cells and living tissue. Vader was still extremely powerful, but the loss of all his organic limbs and a lot of burned tissues hampered his potential.
    Vader didn't even have the potential to be as good as Palpatine after he got burned, much less exceed him.
  9. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4
    This is about the dna, microscopic life forms ; midi-cholorians. This is not about who has more flesh and blood.
    You need to consider it as fully, Yoda is small, but that's nothing to do with his Force potential. It's about how intense that microscopic lifeforms inside of his body.

    Think it like this ; Jedi Master Even Piell is small, but that microscopic lifeforms inside of his body are small too, accordingly to his small body, so he can have the equal Force potential with others. That's how the Force potential works. Let's say a Wookie has the Force, but those microscopic lifeforms are bigger than others, because his overall body is bigger than others as well. I hope you understand what I meant. Midicholorians are / or should be balanced with the body size. Which is why a creature like Even Piell or a Wookie would've the same Force potential.

    If there is an exception, like Anakin, he becomes something else, a chosen one, or Yoda / Sidious, they become Grand Master / Sith Master.

    X person has 90 potential, Y person has 150 potential, if Y person turns into more machine than a man, and if that person loses majority of the body parts then the overall potential decrease to 80. That's exactly what happened with Vader. He had the potential, even without his one arm, but then he lost all that potential when he turned into a more machine than a man.

    If he had the 80 potential from the start, then he would decrease to 40, which means he couldn't do anything special with the Force. But even when he was a more machine than man he was still special because his potential was very very high.

    That's what Lucas meant. Robots / Droids can't use the Force. There is a reason right ? And that reason is being a life form. If Vader becomes ''more'' machine, it means his potential hindered, plain and simple.

    You need to think it only individually, don't compare it with others body size and weights or heights.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Jun 13, 2017
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  10. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Yes according to both Lucas and the EU this is exactly what happened.
  11. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    This. Also, there's no evidence anywhere that I've seen that Vader is significantly weaker at all after he's sustained his injuries than he was before. A bit slower? Maybe. There's a reason we never see Vader run. Physically? It depends. His lungs are certainly weaker. But his prosthetic limbs also have greater-than-human strength. And in the Force? We never see Anakin do anything that we haven't seen Vader do. Incredible telekinetic feats?

    [IMG]

    Combating multiple foes?

    [IMG]

    Yeah, Vader isn't significantly weaker in the Force based off his feats in canon. That's not even counting the things he does in Lords of the Sith or the Darth Vader comics, either.
  12. Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight

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    Jun 27, 2016
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    That's why Vader wanted to train Starkiller in Legends because he wanted to defeat Sidious
    After the death of Starkiller he wanted Luke to be his apprentice

    Vader could not defeat Sidious alone.
    Last edited by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Jun 13, 2017
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  13. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    Mar 28, 2016
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    If anything Vader is stronger in the force. He cannot augment his physicality the same way as he did before but that just made him focus on outright force strength.
  14. Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Knight

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    Apr 26, 2016
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    So where are you getting this from? Smaller midichlorians for smaller lifeforms? That's like saying a mouse is made up of smaller atoms than an elephant, Or a flea on an elephant is the size of a mouse. Nonsensical.

    No, a midichlorian is one size fits all. As long as Vader's brain is functioning as well as it did before he was injured, he has the same biological intelligence and same ability to use the force.

    Also that wouldn't be a good message for Lucasfilm and Disney to send out, basically saying physically disabled people have less potential than able bodied people.
    Last edited by Blackhole E Snoke, Jun 13, 2017
  15. Ithorians Jedi Knight

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    Apr 26, 2016
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    I think that this is exactly it!!! Anakin had the potential to be pretty much the most powerful being the whole galaxy has ever witnessed. I think that going to the Dark Side, that naturally enhances the ability to fight (all in all, its mainly a pure state of aggression), and train in it for 20 years would make him pretty much as powerful as Canon is now showing.

    The Dark Side also weakens some other, important aspects of the Force, because normally people don´t spend the majority of their lives in a battlefield. However, since the fighting aspect seems to be the main one in these power scaling rankings, for me canon Vader seem to have grown in power exponentially since Mustafar, which also makes sense when we see him being being so sure of himself and even arrogant in the OT.

    I get the feeling it´s something similar to Maul; their injuries provided them a pool of pain, suffering and dark feelings to fuel the dark side in them, so they grew so powerful that they could overcome their injuries...
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  16. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

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    Nov 27, 2013
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    Where else ? From Lucas of course.


    Yes a mouse has also smaller microscopic forms, and smaller veins, smaller internal organs. But their function is all the same with an Elephant's vein and internal organs. That's how the Force works.

    Same ability yes, same potential no. Lucas specifically says Vader lost his potential because he has become more machine than a man. That's how Star Wars logic works. That's the explanation we get from Lucas why Vader failed to become more powerful than Sidious.

    Not physically disabled people, the people who have become ''more machine'' than a man has less potential.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Jun 14, 2017
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  17. MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan

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    May 14, 2017
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    It's still a dangerous message to send. It's basically saying don't get your mechanical leg after you lost your legs or a pacemaker, because you lose potential.

    On another point, are we talking about Legend EU or Disney EU? If we talk about Disney EU then what Lucas said or saying isn't canon any more.
  18. La Calavera Jedi Master

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    Sep 2, 2015
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    Uh… isn’t that the same? Vader was physically disabled. It’s not like he could walk or even breathe without the help of cybernetics.

    Not denying anything Lucas said btw, but if someone wants to argue that it doesn't send a positive message to physically disabled people... well yeah, it doesn't.
    Star Wars, baby. :cool:
  19. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 28, 2006
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    A virus, or mitochondria in a mouse are not smaller than they are in an elephant. That's ludicrous...

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  20. Daneira Jedi Knight

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    Jun 30, 2016
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    But it takes more to take down an elephant.


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  21. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

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    Not even sure how you think that is relevant.

    Midichlorians are measured by cell concentration, not total over all. If body size were relevant, that would mean Jedi should be using steroids and growth hormone and lifting big in the Temple gym to pack on as much muscle as possible, or overeating to obesity.

    I dont think we have seen it demonstrated, at all, that Vader is weaker because of his injuries. His remaining cells still have the same concentration of midichlorians as they did pre-immolation sans his biological extremities. Psychological damage could be a factor, but it makes no sense that he wouldnt still hold the same potential because his cell concentration wouldnt have changed.

    The logic that it's total body mass + cell concentration breaks down completely when one of the heaviest hitters in Force power is Yoda. Yoda. Who was the high bar for midichlorian counts before Anakin was found. If you found a being with the same concentration of midichlorians per cell as Yoda, but was 10 times his size, that being wouldnt automatically be stronger in the Force.

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  22. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
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    This is the key point. Living form. Vader was ''more machine'' than a man, and there isn't enough ''living form'' left inside of his body, which is why he was hampered a lot, he was still special and he was able to use the Force better than most but still, he had to need his full potential to surpass Sidious, that's the deal.

    Maul should be the same, Sidious chooses Maul for a reason, he actually believed that Maul could be the successor for his Sith dynasty (since he didn't know about chosen one until Episode I) and after Maul losing his legs, he lost that potential to be his successor as well, Maul didn't have the same potential with Anakin, but he had the potential to be a very powerful, after losing his legs he couldn't become one, he was still better than other Force users though, but still that wasn't enough.

    As for Luke lost his hand, but it could hamper him only a little, a one hand it would be probably %10 of his living form or less. Maul's legs and a small part of his torso would be %40-45 of his body or even more, Vader's arms, legs and his body burned a lot he probably lost %55 of his as well. Which hampered him a lot.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Jun 15, 2017
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  23. Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Knight

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    I don't care what George Lucas once said. It goes completely against what Yoda said to Luke on Dagobah. Vader being "more machine than man" has absolutely no bearings on his ability to use the force.

    In fact how could there be force ghosts in Star Wars if they need their body parts to exist and appear as ghosts?
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  24. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

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    [IMG]
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  25. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

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  26. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

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    Nov 27, 2013
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    They can only exist in a ghost form, they can't touch or manipulate tangible things. As Kenobi says, he couldn't interfere Luke's duel with Vader at Bespin.

    Should I say I don't care what you say ? Lucas is the man who wrote Star Wars. It's funny to dismiss his opinions. Even JJ Abrams said that they will not undo anything related with PT and OT.

    Yes it hindered his ability to use the Force, which is why he failed to become more powerful than Sidious.

    What you say goes completely against the entire Star Wars universe. People ask why Vader, as a chosen one, failed to become more powerful than Sidious, and Lucas says he didn't become more powerful because his ability to use the Force was hindered.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Jun 15, 2017
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