Lit Did Anakin/Vader losing body parts still make him weaker in the Force?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

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    Dec 19, 2016
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    Would the SW galaxy have been better off if OB1 hadn't gone to Mustafar? I'm gonna say yes. Short term. Definitely. Long term. That's not so obvious.
  2. Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Knight

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    Apr 26, 2016
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    I'm sorry, but if George Lucas says something that contradicts something that is actually in a Star Wars movie, that doesn't mean that he is right and the movie is incorrect. It means he is wrong. You can't cook a vanilla sponge cake, serve it to someone and tell them it's chocolate and be right just because you were the one who cooked it.

    I'd also argue that for a force ghost to be seen and heard by Luke it must be manipulating tangible things, light and air. Obi-wan sat down on on Dagobah (although why a weightless ghost would do that I don't know) his bottom seem to interact with the log fine, he didn't fall through. Obi wan said he could not interfere and help Luke in TESB, he didn't say he didn't have the ability to help.

    Why hadn't Vader become more powerful than Sidious? Because Sidious didn't let him.
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  3. Landb Jedi Padawan

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    Mar 7, 2017
    The whole "less flesh = less Force" thing requires a very materialistic interpretation of 'life' and the Force, one I'm not a fan of (and neither is Yoda).

    Being "more machine than man" mentally and spiritually, not physically, is something I could see reducing Force potential if one really feels the need for Vader to have less potential. A cripple with prosthetics is no less human than anyone else, no less alive, and saying otherwise sends a pretty horrible message. Mental and spiritual dehumanization, on the other hand, could easily disrupt one's connection with an energy field that flows through amd connects all life.

    Personally I hate most "weak Vader" stuff, his suit being intentionally crap in Legends was especially egregious. Now that was a dumb way to explain why he didn't have 8 limbs and a rocket launcher hidden in his codpiece. So far Disney's done a better job keeping him consistently formidable, and I hope that persists.

    He didn't become stronger than Palpatine because Palpatine was very careful not to let that happen, had a head start of decades, and was pretty much Satan.
    Last edited by Landb, Jun 16, 2017
  4. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
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    1. We see ghosts touch and manipulate tangible things. Like Obi-wan moving vines on Dagobah before sitting down. They're just not supposed to intervene too much, it's not that they can't.
    2. And Vader still could have become more powerful than Sidious.
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  5. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Aug 8, 2016
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    Lucas has explicitly states the answer to this question is yes, Legends emphasized this a lot and it makes sense given Vader's limitations on screen.

    As for ghosts and interventions I'm not sure how much they are allowed to "intervene" they aren't allowed to engage in combat. But that really gets into the mystical as to whether they are avatars of the force, or how much their personality remains and so on.
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  6. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 28, 2006
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    I think it needs to be reinterpreted as Vader's limitations having less to do with his actual physical state, and moreso with him being psychologically and spiritually broken. The Force is immaterial, it doesnt really make a whole lot of sense for it to be *that* tied to the physical realm that a diminished body = diminished Force. Had Anakin survived Endor, his abilities would have been elevated more and more as he works through the psychological and spiritual issues that held him back.

    Regarding Force ghosts and their ability to interact with the material realm... first and foremost, i dont think they should be understood as independent actors in the way they were when in their physical forms. Obi-Wan couldnt help Luke because the Force doesnt want to go full deus ex machina. Luke also wasnt perceiving his mentors with his physical eyes, otherwise Artoo would have seen Obi-Wan as well. Heck, so would everyone on Endor that night. This didnt happen, and the ability to commune with Force ghosts requires meditative training.

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  7. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Becoming a Jedi force ghost is something that must be taught, it is not granted.

    As for Vader-midi chlorians were the major factor here-his connection to the force was so overpowering that had he reached his full potential he would have been able to ragdoll Palpatine but he lost that in the lava rivers of Mustafar.

    But it's not clear how consciously active the force is, if it is conscious at all and how so?

    The issue of force ghosts gets into what the force is-is it sentient? Semi sentient? Non-sentient? Just a bubbling energy field? Is a Deity? Is it something so overwhelmingly out there and beyond our comprehension that this debate is pointless? I personally feel the force has at least a semi-conscious will-the skywalkers I'd say in Legends are its avatars or instruments. It also seems the Jedi-Sith dance is part of its will somehow.
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  8. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    May 21, 2008
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    In the new canon it doesn't seem like Vader's force powers are limited at all. He's so powerful in fact that Palpatine needs him for "reforging the universe itself" (taken from Tarkin). His feats also surpass those of Anakin Skywalker, especially during Vader Down. Lords of the Sith told us that his potential grew after Mustafar because it sharpened his hatred and anger. The reason he is apprenticed to Palpatine mainly seems to be the fact that Palpatine had a few decades more experience in the dark side. Lords of the Sith explains that a pupil remains a pupil as long as there is something to learn. Vader is playing the long game. If he kills Palpatine prematurely, then Palpatine's immense knowledge in the dark side is (possibly forever) lost. Following the Sith tradition, Vader also needs an apprentice because there shall always be two (though it's debatable how important the rule of two is to the modern Sith). The NEU simply doesn't paint a picture that aligns with the statements Lucas made back in the day. There are also some meta reasons for this as Vader is the greatest villain Star Wars has. There's no business sense in making him suck.

    [face_thinking]
    In the new Vader series he did throw Palpatine against a wall and that was a very young, confused and unfocussed Vader.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 16, 2017
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  9. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Yes there are business reasons, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are abandoning the midi chlorian concept.

    But I don't like that-Vader both as a Jedi and Sith is as Obi Wan said more machine than man-his injuries and his psychological problems have greatly hindered his potential. I think Legends was going in the right direction with this-the loss of so much organic tissue has limited his connection to the force, and his psychological issues really keep him from achieving what is still possible for him. Something Palpatine acknowledges.

    I guess the NuCanon is taking it a different direction we'll see it goes. I preferred the Legends interpretation personally it added a lot of tragedy to the character. But that is my humble opinion.
    Last edited by Darth Invictus, Jun 16, 2017
  10. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    I preferred the Legends version, I felt it added tragedy to the character. But that does make sense-people don't want to see a moping Vader they want to see him cut down rebel soldiers like a butcher and his steaks. And that's fine and cool.
  11. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    But he's a Sith, isn't it? His "unnaturalness" is their thing. Palpatine looks like a shrivelled Zombie and Vader is part machine. The loss of humanity is played up in the aesthetics of the Sith. Their kind of power is as unholy as "unnatural" that they are.

    You're right however that Vader never unleashes his full potential. It would require him to become full sociopath like Palpatine and he never seems to achieve it. There's this little flicker of decency inside him that he can't quench.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 16, 2017
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  12. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

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    Nov 27, 2013
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    And then Sidious holds him back, then blasts him with Force lightning and Vader admits that he couldn't defend himself without his lightsaber. Yoda, even Dooku was able to redirect lightning with their barehands, that's the difference between human flesh and droid.

    Also, that's the only time Vader did that because he was deceived by Palpatine, he was extremely angry and frustrated due to Padme's death, that was the only reason why he joined the dark side and now he learned that Padme died, it's obvious that he was amped. Like the time when he was trying to save Luke in Episode VI.

    Yoda casually blasted Sidious in Episode III but lost it later, and even Maul did the same thing in the Clone Wars episode (off-panel action - unseen scenes)

    That's nothing to do with unleashing his full potential. Sidious was a Sith, and every Sith acts like that. Vader could achieve his full potential as a Jedi as well, but he never did due to his injuries.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Jun 17, 2017
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  13. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    May 21, 2008
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    Of course not. How could he possibly have learned that skill since ROTS? Nobody ever taught him how to do that.

    I don't know how anything you post here disproves what I posted about Vader's portrayal in the nu-canon. And cut-scenes don't count.

    Anakin Skywalker lacked the focus and commitment to the light that a Jedi needs or he would have become even more powerful. Like Yoda tells us, the path of a Jedi is a difficult one. But Anakin was always teetering close to the edge of the dark side, which is why he never surpassed great Jedi like Yoda or even his master Obi-Wan.

    He's a much stronger Sith than a Jedi.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 17, 2017
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  14. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

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    I should note that even the EU/Legends, which was very into the "sick man in an iron mask" interpretation, ran with the above in Vader centric material following RotS.

    My emphasis.
  15. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    That was Sidious' IU interpretation and I did acknowledge Vader had many a psychological issue.
  16. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

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    The point is that stuff like that was still being written into the EU, during the days when Lucas was a primary source in-and-of himself; that there was push-back against the "lost mass = lost potential" stuff, even then. It wasn't remotely sacrosanct.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jun 17, 2017
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  17. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
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    I think that this is all missing the point.

    Was Suit Vader powerful? Yes. Was he a broken shadow of what he could have become? Yes.

    Vader, injured and dependent on a respirator is still incredibly powerful. Imagine how much greater he could have been if he hadn't been burned and mutiliated?

    Suffering massive third-degree burns and losing all his biological limbs did reduce Vader's power. George Lucas himself has confirmed that. Vader was still powerful, but he could have been greater than he was.

    Unsuited Vader could have, given time, defeated Sidious himself. Palpatine admits that to his Jedi Counterpart.

    Palpatine wanted Vader to surpass him and become the ultimate Sith Lord. That's why he was so disappointed when he found Vader's ruined form on Mustafar.

    [IMG]


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  18. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

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    Hey, as long as you're not still trying to argue that Anakin circa TCW/RotS was more adept than Vader circa ANH the rest is just window dressing.
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  19. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

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    I don't know, Ulicus. On one hand I see yours and others points that ANH Vader's mastery of the Force and general combat skills was superior. But I still think that ROTS Anakin's sheer potential and youthful power would win out. ROTJ Luke was able to beat Vader, mainly due to sheer power (yes Vader didn't want to kill him, but he still got overwhelmed, whereas on Bespin he was able to control the entire fight, more or less).

    I'd say ROTS Anakin and ANH Vader are fairly close in terms of overall strength. But I think that unsuited Anakin would be able to harness that pure rage and power that let him overwhelm Dooku, and that would be enough to beat suited Vader, as Luke did on Death Star II.
  20. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

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    I take issue with the Top Trumps approach. That's not how it works. The best tennis player can lose to someone who's seeded 200 places below, etc. Upsets happen. They're still upsets.

    And they're especially likely to happen in a universe that is literally guided by destiny.

    This is one of the main reasons we don't allow "versus" threads. It's all nonsense.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jun 17, 2017
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  21. Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Knight

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    I can believe that because Vader had so much machine in him, he was less able to enhance his physical abilities through the force than he was before he was in injured. Unlike someone like Mother Talzin, Cronal, or Belia Darzu, Vader showed no sign of being able to do Mechu deru and control his suit with the force. If he had learned that ability though I can imagine he would have become a serious physical robotic force monster. Maybe knowlage of Mechu deru was something Palpatine purposely kept from Vader, that is if Palpatine himself had knowlage of it and was capable of performing it.
    Last edited by Blackhole E Snoke, Jun 17, 2017
  22. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    May 21, 2008
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    This quote is taken out of context. During the whole series Palpatine tries to use negative motivation on Vader (prove me that I'm wrong). At the end of the Darth Vader series Palpatine tells him "you are everything I could have hoped for". Palpatine will tell him whatever is more opportune at the moment.

    And like I said, in Tarkin we get a glimpse into Palpatine's inner monologue. He wants to restructure the universe and he needs Vader for that.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 17, 2017
  23. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    That is a bit different than legends palpatine who wanted to suck everybody's life force into his own and rule an eternal dark side magocracy across the universe.
  24. Vorax Jedi Master

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    Anger is the well spring from which all the Dark Sider's energy and power flows. Thats where they get their power and ability to use the Force or whatever. So naturally thats what keeps Vader and others running in part from what we're shown and told. The Sith Lords are trained to use that power, so they should have complete control over it and know how to implement and use it to its full range and all of that kind a thing.

    It does not appear that Sidious taught Maul or Vader anything about Force lightning. Dooku deflected his own Force lightning by using more Force lightning. Yoda just somehow absorbs it from Tyranus and Sidious. It does not seem any other Jedi was abled or trained like Yoda oddly. But Maul(and his Sith Apprentice Savage) and the Jedi Knights do apparently know how to combat it with lightsabers and Maul was able to Force push and hold Sidious :



    But once lightsabers are absent they do not appear able to stop the currents. It kinda brings up a point about Tyranus, was lured in by Sidious with the allure or gift of such an ability to use. This seems likely, especially when he was training Savage.

    Anakin got bolted every so often by Lightning from Tyranus(and even electrostaff's and whips) so now Vader like Maul and Luke, when weaponless apparently cannot do anything. It brings up the problem with the effectiveness of Obi & Yoda's training of Luke in the films, its really laughable in a sadistic when you think about it. Why didnt Yoda or Ben train or hand down knowledge of combating lightning . Even the ghosts stuff was to fix the problem of them being dead but still being able to teach and train. It makes no sense really.



    Anyway, I think the Vader suit is part of the key , all the cybernetic attachments that includes and his cybernetically impregnated body and whatever chems/ drugs Vader is filled with to survive and run add to the seen in the film/comic and must be taken into account. Vader in the medical center was angry and unleashed a Force "repulse" or "shock wave" or whatever one wants to call it. It was just unfocused and primal raw energy that any Jedi or Sith has or Force user as within them . The comic is well a comic, its own medium, artistic license and all aside I would think its clear that events were occurring in between the scenes in the film or just slightly after parts seen on camera. So you have watch the film and read the comic in sequence. Vader attacking Darth Sidious early is interesting as its almost out've character but also puts him character the one we see in the films as the forced into servitude loyal of a slave that plots his an overthrow by using someone more powerful than himself but in the end balks at the chance in fear of his master's wrath . The actual film he just lashed out with the Force and it caught up nearly everything(mainly surgical droids and stuff) that was within radius and that could be effected accept Sidious who just stood there laughing and appreciating his work.

    Its clear to me that Sidious was testing and emboldening Vader deliberately out've design because he wanted a Sith Apprentice and thus to see if he's still got what it takes to be one. A Sith Apprentice still has to test and challenge the edicts of the Master, that something Maul also does. Thats part of what a Sith Lord of Bane's legacy does, they plot and need to go stronger to eventually overthrow a Master and carry on there can only be two, a Master and Apprentice. I think Sidous in the comic had to make sure Vader knew he was the master and the more powerful of the two and so Sidious had to reassert his dominance upon Vader by electrocuting him and dominating him to his will - stuff we've seen before whether it was Maul or Tyranus and now of course Vader.

    I don't understand the full potential stuff. Was not like Anakin won every time in TCW or prior in AOTC. Vader was soundly defeated on Mustafar at his peak and wholeness using the Dark Side but having all his Jedi training . Cyber Sith Vader is supposed to be weaker than pre cyber Vader. Cyber Vader did not defeat Sidious by out Forcing him or anything in ROTJ, he just used his cybernetically enhanced body to attack him from behind by hurl him and over while simultaneously being struck dead by the Emperor's lightning. Was not like ANH's Sith Lord Vader was tossing around Old Ben. Further we learn Sidious had no plans on Vader remaining his service after Mustafar nor was he ever gonna rule his Empire after he died. The Empire was gonna destroy itself. There is no evidence that even if Sidious found a way to remain alive for thousands of years that Vader was gonna too. Even if Vader and Luke somehow won together, Vader would not have access to the command of the Galactic Empire, he would have to fight it too. I think the storytelling is strange, as is this Force power stuff.


    Only odd thing I find about Vader is that outside the suit he's a stumpy handicapped malnourished torso and whats left of his musculature is more akin to Christensen's body build and not where near a Dave Prowse or whoever steroidal bodybuilder or gigantism athlete they use to fill the suit . So it appears once Vader dons the suit and limbs are attached does it temporarily give him a boost through artificial means?!

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Vorax, Jun 18, 2017
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  25. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    Feb 9, 2005
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    If body mass is (part) all that it matters Force potential wise, then theoretically

    Palpatine could just get a bunch of Jedi (such as the Jedi at the Jedi temple at order 66) and put them together like a human centipede and call that his new apprentice