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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Did Anakin's slaughter of younglings make it hard for you to 'forgive' him in ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by grimlockbedi, Feb 28, 2007.

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  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin, like all of us, has the option of choice. We can choose to give into what we want most or not. Anakin chose to give into his desire to be all powerful, but he could've easily chose not to. Luke could've chose to become all powerful in the same manner, but he chooses not to. It all comes down to choice. I choose not to drink, because in my family, we're filled with alocholics. I don't want to follow that path and so I chose not to. I have a bad temper that I inherited, but I choose not to use it. Anakin could've been a savior or a destroyer. He had a choice. He chose poorly, not because it was his destiny to do so. He chose because he was manipulated into believing it was his only choice. But he always had a choice.

    Obi-wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

    Yoda: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."

    Anakin thought that he had no choice but to become a Sith, in order to save Padme. Obi-wan and Yoda follow the Jedi teachings. That nothing was written in stone. But a Sith believes otherwise.


    He didn't have to say he was sorry to feel it. Luke could sense that. Listen again to how James Earl Jones delivers that line, "It is too late for me." He's admitted to screwing up. He doesn't have to say "I'm sorry and I was wrong." to feel that way. He atoned in that he made peace within himself and with the Force.

    The atonement is a doctrine found within both Christianity and Judaism. It describes how sin can be forgiven by God. In Judaism, Atonement is said to be the process of forgiving or pardoning a transgression. This was originally accomplished through rituals performed by a High Priest on the holiest day of the Jewish year: Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). In Christian theology, the atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, which made possible a reconciliation between God and creation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement#Need_for_a_Redeemer

    He doesn't live long enough to do more. That's why he cannot make up for his sins, beyond just killing Palpatine. That's what his children do in the years following Endor. By rebuilding the Jedi Order and the Republic.
     
  2. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002
    You can't do anything other than acknowledge your mistake and try to start a new life. The way I see it, the only way you can "make up" for your mistake or crime is to simply pay the consequences of your actions - whether through death or other forms of loss and suffering.

    Vader has been paying the consequences of his actions since the moment he lost Padme. And he paid the final consequence through death.


     
  3. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    "As little as a ball on a billiard table can move before receiving an impact, so little can a man get up from his chair before being drawn or driven by a motive. But then his getting up is as necessary and inevitable as the rolling of a ball after the impact. And to expect that anyone will do something to which absolutely no interest impels them is the same as to expect that a piece of wood shall move toward me without being pulled by a string." On the Freedom of the Will, A. Schopenhauer

    So, yeah. It seems to you that you are choosing not to drink, but really you can do no other thing.

    You are more motivated to not become an alcoholic, than you are motivated to become an alcoholic, so you make the choice to not drink.

    If circumstances change, and your desire to have a drink becomes greater than your desire to avoid the perceived risk of alcoholism, guess what? You are going to have a drink.

    Anakin wanted to save Padme. If he had cared more about the Jedi, he wouldn't have turned to the darkside. He couldn't help it. Anakin wanted Padme more than anything else.

    Luke wanted to be a "Jedi" more than anything (good, compassionate). He didn't want the greater power that the Emperor was offering him. So when he was offered a choice, he chose to not turn to the darkside. He couldn't do otherwise.

    Why would he turn the darkside, when his greatest desire is to be a Jedi?

    If we look at out own lives, and at the people we are, and at the choices we continually make, I think we will find that we usually choose the same things, and, that we always choose what we want the most.

    What we want the most is what actuates us, and we don't get to choose what we want. Is being gay a choice?

    So leave Anakin alone. He is what he is and he had no part in his making. He did the best that he could.

    No one is in a position to judge anyone else's actions, because nobody has ever been in anyone else's shoes but their own.
     
  4. arbed

    arbed Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2004
    But we do have courts and judges to judge other people's actions. One has to be held accountable for what they do, otherwise you have anarchy and havoc.
     
  5. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Yes, he was selfish.

    Yes, Luke understood that selflessness is a higher path than selfishness, which Anakin only learned at the end of his life.

    And yet Luke came quite close to falling. The Dark Side can twist a person's mind.

    No, but being gay and being a child killing monster who stood by and watched a planet get destroyed are entirely different.

    So he has no responsiblity for his actions? No accountability?

    It's irrelevent if one has been in Anakin's shoes or not.
     
  6. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    I did not say Anakin should not be held accountable for his actions. The law exists for a reason.

    If you think he should be punished for killing the younglings, I agree with you.

    The question was whether or not we can forgive Anakin, not whether or not he should punished.

    We are all selfish, that is, we are all motivated by our own selfish interests. There is no selflessness anywhere, no matter what your books tell you, or what you would like to believe.

    I think what you mean is that Anakin does things that harm other people to get what he wants, and Luke doesn't. Anakin wants material things(his wife), and Luke is satisfied with Jedi philosophy and self-righteousness. They both want what makes them feel fulfilled.

    But what you are saying is this: Anakin is bad, Luke is good. Is that right?

    I don't dispute that judged from the outside this is true. However, everything has its place in the world, and Anakin had to be exactly what he was, and he had to do exactly what he did. You might as well say that a ball falling to the ground because of gravity is "bad."

    It isn't bad. It just is.

    The most important part of my post was "we don't get to choose what we want," and that we necessarily have to do what we most want. Therefore, although it is an unfortunate comparison, there is no difference between anakin as a child killing monster and a gay person. (Sorry gays. Please don't misunderstand. I don't mean morally. I only mean that they both do not have a choice.)

    I don't know how to respond to this. What point are you trying to make?

    The ability to "put yourself in someone else's shoes" is what compassion is.

    I think compassion is very relevant in a conversation about forgiveness.









     
  7. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    In reality I'd agree, in a fictional morality play I think that can be debated.

    Overall, yes

    Except that ball isn't sentient and can't resist gravity. Anakin on the other hand is and can as shown by the fact that he resists Palpatine at first in RotS and turns away from the Dark Side in Jedi.

    It is an unfortunate comparison, though I can see your point. I do think we can choose whether or not we pursue those things, though it's hard to decide not to.(I don't think it's something that should be done in most cases, but when what you want directly harms the entire galaxy((as what Anakin does in Sith does)) it may be worth the sacrifice.)

    It is, and I should clarify. I agree completely that being able to mentally and emotionally "walk a mile in their shoes" is at the root of compassion/empathy, however I also think that it doesn't necessarily mean you have to approve of what they did, similar to how I think forgiveness is more a measure of the one doing the forgiving than it is of whatever misdeed the one being forgiven has done.
     
  8. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    I wish I was frozen in caarbonite... [face_hypnotized]
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That's not the only method of making up. That's what earning your redemption is all about. Rather than wait for death, which is the easy way, people choose to take the long and difficult task of earning forgiveness. Of earning forgiveness. It's not enough for the conscious of the individual to just sit back and do nothing. Guilt plays a factor in earning your redemption. Take one of the most famous of guilt and redemption. Spider-Man. A man who because he failed to act responsibly contributed unknowningly to his uncle's death. To earn his redemption, Peter Parker spends the rest of his days as Spider-Man in order to make amends for his mistake. Sure, it's impossible, but he is spurned by guilt. People who try to earn redemption do so out of a sense of guilt. It's something that is instilled in many of us by our upbringing.

    Not always. One can still choose to not give in to their feelings. Desire can be great, but so can the spirit and the will. Hence there have been former addicts who have managed to regain their sense of self, by fighting the temptation. By finding ways to not dwell on their problems and live a normal life. Not everyone "falls off the wagon". All a result of, you guessed it, choice.

    But he was tricked along the way. He was given reason to turn on the Jedi which clouded his judgment and resulted in a poor choice. When Anakin makes the correct choice, he is no longer being decieved by a lie as Obi-wan said. He makes a clear and concise choice, free from the master of deception.

    Sure he could. He could've chosen to give into the dark side and slain his father. He had a choice the whole time.

    Because the allure of the dark side says that he can have whatever he wants. Do whatever he wants. Be whoever he wants. But Luke resists the temptation. He makes a choice to accept himself as he is and not what he thinks he needs to be in order to stop the madness.

    Being born gay is not a choice. That's genetics. But as a gay person you have a choice to embrace your homosexuality and enter a homosexual relationship or not. A sad fact of life is that there are many homosexuals who choose to live "in the closet". On the opposite side of things, there are those who choose to be "outted", which is a good thing. It comes down to choice.

    He had every part in becoming Vader. He chose to be selfish. He chose to break the rules. He chose to turn traitor. He chose to become a Sith and embrace the dark side.

    But there are those who have made similar mistakes and these are the people who try to help others to find their way back. There are people who encourage such self destructiv
     
  10. mountain_hare

    mountain_hare Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Darth Vader saved his own son, hence he was redeemed.

    HUH?

    Wow, I wish someone had told 'The Shadow' that. Instead of being forced to spend the rest of his life fighting crime in order to earn redemption, he could just have a son and then save him from a villian.
     
  11. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Well here is the simple question for those who have "redeemed" or "not redeemed" Vader:

    Let's say after ROTJ and DSII that Vader lived. Somehow the lightning didn't kill him. So now the Republic has returned and democracy and peace is restored. What do you think should happen to Vader? Should he be tried for war crimes for the previous 2 decades (which would certainly lead to execution or at a minimum a life sentence without parole) or do you just let him go live his life, hanging out with his children and being a nice, friendly Jedi?

    This will show just how "forgiven" and "Redeemed" he really is. So...???
     
  12. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    They would have burned him alive...
     
  13. arbed

    arbed Jedi Knight star 5

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    Feb 24, 2004
    Excellent, GreenDestiny...=D=

    A murderer can be as sorry as he wants, but he still has to face up to his punishment. So in Vader's case (as any other criminal) I don't see how he could just go on his merry way, not having to pay for his deeds. You may "forgive" Vader, but that doesn't exempt him from punishment, imo.

    Vader may be redeemed in the eyes of the Force, god, or whatever, but he still can't get away scot free.

    A wrongdoer can be forgiven/redeemed but still has to "serve his time".
     
  14. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    I view it like this:

    Luke forgave Anakin.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda forgave Anakin.

    The rest of the galaxy still thinks of him as an evil and traitorous bastich.

    Luke saved Anakin's "soul" from the darkside (what unmasked Vader means when he tells Luke "you already have") by teaching him compassion and igniting the tiny spark of good still in him.

    Vader/Anakin's redemption IS Luke and Leia, specifically their ideals and future actions (i.e. rebuilding the Jedi Order and republic). As GL said about parents being redeemed through the actions of their children.


    As far as the topic, yes the slaughter of children made it harder to forgive Anakin. Although I don't think I as a viewer ever forgave him or was supposed to forgive him. Luke is the one supposed to forgive him, adding that much more greatness to his character by transcending human emotions and doing something the audience can't do.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Had Anakin lived and was capable of standing trial, he would. Luke would be at his defense. The Alliance would sort through the facts, both before and after he turned to the dark side. Luke would implore the people to judge him fairly and compassionately. To not let personal feelings get in the way. To weigh both the good and the bad that his father has done, before making a final judgment. The Alliance may choose to let Luke be the one to decide, since he is a Jedi Knight and falls under his jurisdiction. If that were to happen, then Luke would have his father serve as a Jedi Knight and they'd work together to rebuild the Jedi.
     
  16. smibrilundun

    smibrilundun Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2007
    he was evil
     
  17. morpha2

    morpha2 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2005
    You forgot the part where the prosecutor brings up the murdered younglings and Luke goes, "wait, WHAT?!?!?!?!" Then slaps Vader across the mask and exits.
     
  18. arbed

    arbed Jedi Knight star 5

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    Feb 24, 2004
    [face_laugh] morpha2[face_laugh]
     
  19. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2002
    That's not the only method of making up. That's what earning your redemption is all about. Rather than wait for death, which is the easy way, people choose to take the long and difficult task of earning forgiveness. Of earning forgiveness.


    I don't believe that forgiveness should be earned. If a person has expressed true remorse for his or her actions, I say that he or she should be forgiven, and given a chance to make a new life or walk a new path.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    You don't think that Luke didn't know that? He did. It wouldn't matter.

    I know you don't believe it. But I'm speaking of the individual. The offender. A lot of people, though not all, feel the need to take active steps to make up for their mistakes. It's human nature. We are driven by the desire to make up for any mistakes we make, if we feel repentive. If we don't feel that need, then we're seriously messed up. It's our conscience that is the motivator. It hounds us. Torments us. Reminds us of what we did. What's more, it is within human nature to not be so forgiving outright. No, we as a people want to have proof of this remorse, so we are not burned by the fact that another crime has been committed by the same offender. Trust, forgiveness and redemption. They all have to be earned, no matter what you or I personally believe.
     
  21. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002
    It's human nature. We are driven by the desire to make up for any mistakes we make, if we feel repentive. If we don't feel that need, then we're seriously messed up.

    We are seriously messed up? Are you trying to say that we HAVE TO feel a need to make up for mistakes? That's it's necessary?
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    We're only seriously messed up if we feel no remorse, whatsoever. No desire to repent at all. If we do feel it, then there is hope for us. And no, I did not say that we have to feel a need to make up for mistakes. We just do that on instinct as a way of easing our own conscience. It's as much for us as it is for others. And those who do this, do feel it is necessary to ease their conscience.
     
  23. palpatinesucks

    palpatinesucks Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2007
    I find some of these replys so tortured in their logic...

    Look, let's say two men went on massive killing spree and killed many people. Then, one day, evil#1 wants to kill evil#2's son. They fight and evil#2 kills evil#1 to save his son, and in the process, dies himself.

    Would we be calling evil#2 a hero? Would the police or anyone else?

    Of course not. We would be calling them two evil idiots who destroyed each other...just like most criminals do.

    The fact is that Darth Vader/Anakin should NEVER, EVER, be forgiven.

    They by selves or together:

    1). Killed so many Republic citizens and Jedi in Episode 1 and 2 and 3.

    2). Killed off the whole Jedi order, except Obi Wan and Yoda in Episode 3.

    3). Killed an entire planet in Episode 4.

    4). Continue to kill and maim thousands of people in Episode 5 and 6.

    5). Killed Obi Wan in Episode 4.


    Darth Vader/Anakin is, was, and always will be a spoiled brat, an deluded power hungry obnoxious punk, a back-stabbing xxx-hole, a murderer of thousands and millions of people, a murderer of children, a torturer to his own children, a wife-beater, a arrogant and not as good as he thinks he is combatant.

    Lucas should have never put his force ghost at the end of ROTJ. The force ghosts should have been ONLY Obi Wan and Yoda, the two most selfless, loyal, honorable, brave, wise and compassionate people in the Universe, and along with Luke, the heroes of this entire saga.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    So let me get this. People can go from good to bad, but not from bad to good. Right. Where's the logic in this?
     
  25. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Indeed..

    Anyways, I doubt the rebellion would have tried Anakin/Vader for killing the Jedi(younglings included). They would have tried him for recent crimes, if he had lived and allowed himself to be taken into custody. I think that Luke would have stashed him away somewhere to learn more about the Jedi.
     
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