Did anyone not like the story of TPM?

A Gusher:

"TPM delivered the goods, period. Just because you're incapable of appreciating a STAR WARS movie and walk into the theatre NOT wanting to enjoy it in the first place doesn't mean that I can't enjoy it when it's the greatest film ever, because it is."

A Bashtard:

"If you take the word 'sith' and rearrange the letters, that's TPM. I could make better in the latrine."

Aaah... the irony of extremes...

Yes, I realize the error of my ways. I have acted too much like some of my gusher opponents. I apologize to all the bashers whom I have disappointed.

holds head in shame

I feel the need to support Go-Mer, because like him I really liked The Phantom Menace. I feel that it could have been better, but I'm just happy that he decided to make the prequels.

However, I think that some of Go-Mer's arguments are invalid. In some cases he's made some strong statements that have been attacked, and then he's clarified his thoughts so that they are not as rigid. I can see why he'd make strong statements, because he's being attacked by about twenty so-called bashers.

For instance, the statement that if you showed a movie to a group of people and they split on their opinion, the movie cannot be the problem because it is the only constant. Absolutely not true. First of all, movies are judged subjectively and human all have different opinions.

Although its a strong statement, his point is that we all have different opinions, ranging from people thinking that its an outright classic to others thinking it sucked royally. Some of us are naturally more accepting and open-minded when it comes to movies and others are more harsh.

But I don't think that you can open up your mind enough to accept crappy movies. I could never open my mind up enough to like a Carrot-Top movie. Eight year-olds are not very picky when it comes to movies directed at them. It doesn't mean those movies are good. An eight year-old might also get bored during an Academy Best Picture movie, but that doesn't mean it sucks.

Another point: just because we can't do better than an artist doesn't mean that we can't have opinions on their work. No one would be able to review or criticize any creative work.

Props to you Go-Mer from your strong pro-TPM stance. I love TPM and think that George is going to deliver with the next two as well. I wish I could support some of your arguments and defend against some of the arguments against TPM, but it seems to me like it comes down to a difference in opinions, and that's something that I don't think you can argue about.

He does make some okay arguments, I will agree with you on that. But most of the time he uses his opinion like it is the final word in the debate. And he seems to have some kind of superiority complex over those of us who just don't see the deep meanings in every frame of TPM. Some of us think he is making all this stuff up.

Aren't you kind of like Gomer also? From my point of view you and Gomer are similar. Both refuse to listen to the other, one hates TPM, the other loves it. One has something nice to say in every thread, one has something negative to say...I can go on forever...opposites really are one and the same. Think about it

the story.... of TPM..........

well, I'm it didn't seem as overly simplistic as ANH's story, which is good, but I wouldn't mind that personally. It did seem a little loose at times, but besides that, it was pretty alright.

Aren't you kind of like Gomer also? From my point of view you and Gomer are similar. Both refuse to listen to the other, one hates TPM, the other loves it. One has something nice to say in every thread, one has something negative to say...I can go on forever...opposites really are one and the same. Think about it


That has to be the worst flame I've ever heard!!! If you would read some of my other posts, aside from just today, you'd realize that I'm really not negative all the time. Go check out the OT forum, I post quite a bit on there also.

Back to the story...

I liked the overall story, but I feel the execution was flawed. The story took the back stage to the overcharacterization and upstaging by a certain CGI character.

I liked the political motives, and liked the introduction of another planet to the SW universe, but felt the story got slow and boring during the Tattooine sequences.

How is that a flame? I was polite and didn't bash you. I questioned you. I am new around here and like I said, "from my point of view" all I have seen is negative posts from you. It is an observation. We can only improve ourselves by actually trying to improve ourselves.

ANH story was sooooo simple, total summer movie fodder, probably the least interesting of the series. but, it was TIGHT, and the characters, fx, and execution of it all made it real fun.

How is that a flame? I was polite and didn't bash you.

It was a joke. Sorry.

And yes, ANH rocked!!!! The script was simple but oh so effective, and the characters were great!

see? Stoney got good things to say

Stone_Jedi, my last quotes were distinctly NOT directed at you in any way, nor any of your compadres-at-arms. That was the point. We've got my buddy Go-Mer at one extreme and everyone else somewhere in the middle; ergo the venom that often gets flung his way, considering he refuses to meet anyone anywhere but in his fantasy wing where TPM is perfect and untouchable.

I don't think TPM is perfect, and I don't think George Lucas is a God, I just happen to enjoy good movies, even the imperfect ones made by mere mortals.

The point I am trying to make with my argument regarding the 50-50 split ruling out the possibility that the movie was at fault, is simply that the film is the constant. We all saw the same movie, the only difference between us all is our individual opinions.

I do not think any of you are stupid for not liking it. I just think it is unfortunate, and uneccesary.

I guess the reason my arguments come off as damning the bashers, is because their first thought is always that George screwed it up. Instead of entertaining the -possiblity- that they misunderstood a portion of the film, it is a "Plot Hole". With some films, I can see there are huge plot holes, but beleive me, I have gone over this saga (what we have so far) and as far as 6 film stories goes, this is pretty solid plot-wise. Instead of pondering why Jar-Jar was so abrasive, he was simply a "mistake". And the idea that because you bought a whole bunch of SW merchandise, you know what makes SW what it is better than Lucas? I find that to be really self absorbed at worst, and highly unlikely at best. The only time I get really huffy is when one of you suggests you could have done better. Self assurance is one thing, self promoted superiority is an ugly thing that makes you look bad in the long run. Just ask the Phantom Editor.

Certainlly, some things could have been done better in TPM. I am not ignoring that fact. But then again, this is true of the classic trilogy as well. I don't see why I should be branded a lunatic, simply because I can enjoy this movie without whining about this or that.

By all means, this is a place of discussion, and while it gets heated here and there, that is why we are here.

To disagree.

If we all agreed, this would be a boring place. So bring up your reasons for saying the story wasn't well written, tell me all about why you felt the dialogue was bad. Give some solid reasons that point to Lucas selling his soul for the merchandise.

Just don't expect me to agree with you.

How is that a flame?

Metsuke, you're new, but just so you know, compairing someone to Gomer is a pretty serious flame.

Stryphe, he is happy with TPM because the technology exists to tell his story the way he wants to.

YES! Exactly, because of the
t-e-c-h-k-n-o-w-l-e-d-g-e. If he were making ANH right now, for the first time, with the level of technology he has now, he'd love it more than TPM. And yes, I have read on more than one occasion, GL say that it's all about the story, but watch him in long interviews, he might make some offhand comment about the story being all important, but then he'll spend the next ten minutes getting all excited about why ROJ was so cool because of these new effects, or something to that affect.

You don't have to flame me to make your point Stryphe.

I think it would be hard to know which chapter George would like had the technology of today been available then.

He wanted the technology to fit his story is the bottom line. He waited, until the technology was fit to tell the story he wanted to tell.

In the classic trilogy, the Galaxy is decimated. That is why everything in the prequels is more diverse.

I have gone over this saga (what we have so far) and as far as 6 film stories goes, this is pretty solid plot-wise.

Seems like a contradiction to me. You say you've only seen what's out (4 films), but say it's a real solid 6 film saga.

The only things left that aren't tied up for me already in TPM, are why the droids don't remember Tattoine, and why some Jedi disappear, while others do not.

And Lucas has gone on record as saying those two things will be explained.

But the things people point out as plot holes in TPM, I do not agree with.

For example, Obi-Wan being Qui-Gon's Padawan. Some say this is a hole, because he said Yoda taught him in ESB. Well, this is not a problem, because Yoda was his teacher before Qui-Gon took him on as a padawan.

I tell you what, you set up the plot holes, and I'll knock them down.

I tell you what, you set up the plot holes, and I'll knock them down.

We've been over this before. For you, Ben's one line in TPM about Yoda is enough. The rest you leave to EU to explain. I don't buy this. If point A was said in the movie, but realtiy B was shown, I want it said why the two are different in the movie, not in an EU novel. And I'll never buy it that Charelton Heston was a good pilot because he won the charotte race (pardon my sarcastic, yet accurate analogy).

And actually, from what I hear, GL will knock down the plot holes for you by prequelizing the Classics. Seems the story of the classics was good enough for everyone but George.

You don't have to flame me to make your point Stryphe.

Me, flame? Shame on me.

My God, have you ever heard of rolling with something?

Why can't you buy it? Why can't you beleive that this just makes sense?

Why do you need to have your hand held at every turn?

Why do you need to have your hand held at every turn?

Because I'm an inferior SW fan and inferior SW fans need GL's support, too, Mr. Tonic.

But seriously now --

Why can't you buy it? Why can't you beleive that this just makes sense?

Something that's such an obvious take off on charoteering (which is most definitely not piloting), just doesn't pass as piloting to me. Heck, if Anakin had just done some cool stuff on purpose during the big battle, I'd been happy, but no, he goofs up, crashes, and saves the day. Which would be fine, had it not been for the now imfamous Ben-sits-on-the-log scene from ROJ where he talks about what a gret pilot he was suppodely in TPM.

"Why can't you buy it? Why can't you beleive that this just makes sense?"

Because it just really doesn't. If you have to lean on the piece, it doesn't really fit the puzzle. And IMHO to rely on the EU and your own imagination to provide continuity is "leaning on it".

Man, if you can only think of Anakin's pod racer as a wheel based vehicle, I can see the problem. I just don't see how this is a fault of the film. Just sounds like someone is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

Okay, fine, lets say the pods were wheel based vehicles that didn't fly over the ground. Then do you remember that bit at the end when he jumped into a Naboo Starfighter and destroyed the flying space station?'

As far as Yoda being Obi-Wan's teacher, I hear they will explore young Jedi Training in the next film. If they show that Yoda is teching all the young Jedi, will you get off Lucas' case?

Wow this thread is really getting a lot of responses. The funny part is, we're not even really discussing he exact thread subject; its degenerated into your basic basher vs. gusher discussion. stone_jedi, I agree with you: I feel that the plot,overall was very good, but the execution wasn't perfect. I don't want to say that the plot was flawed, but it didn't quite capture the complete Star Wars magic (but it came very close and was still really great.) My only complaint is that George played it safe by going for the generic "massive land/space/Jedi battle." We've seen the massive space battle in which winner takes all three out of four movies and this ending is kind of taken straight from ROTJ, with the details switched around. I hope that George has the insight to realize that the casual viewer and the hard-core fan will not be disappointed if he takes a different route and has an unconventional(relative to SW) ending. After all, TESB has the most unique plotting and ending, and of course we all know how we feel about that episode. But I don't think that George will try to use that ending again, I think he realizes that its used up its welcome.

I don't think he is doing this to "recapture" the magic for the fans of ROTJ. He says that for better or worse, he is approaching these films like a musical peice. There are themes that are repeated. Sometimes using different instruments, and sometimes using different notes. But the idea is sort of a Cubsit idea (or so he says, I am not sure what a cubist is exactly), where you take one thing and show it from many different sides.

What I have noticed is that while many things about TPM are similar to things that happen in the other films, those bits also have their differences, and that is one of the things I find facinating.

For example, Anakin Skywalker doesn't have to do anything at the end of the film. He just is, and by moving forward, just keeps being dragged by luck to the final destination which is to save the day. To me this seems like the Force was using Anakin, without him even knowing it. It is as if he doesn't have to try, because it always works out in the end.

Luke on the other hand, has a hair raising time attacking the Death Star. His childhood friend Biggs gets killed, he loses R-2, and he KNOWS that the weight of the galaxy is square on his shoulders, yet he takes responsibility and USES the Force to emerge victorious.

I think all this "Chosen one" stuff, and all this effortless luck will spoil Anakin. This explains how he comes to the inevitable conclusion that he is fit to judge the entire galaxy. He will grow to beleive that nothing he does can be wrong, because everything he does is the will of the Force.

Luke on the other hand, will learn to take responsibility for his own actions.